Indie Impressions: Sayonara Wild Hearts w/ Katerblossom

[00:00:11] Welcome, welcome, one and all. It's another Indie Impressions episode. It is me, Jake, from the Pre-Order Bonus Podcast. And I'm really excited. We have a returning guest on the episode for today. We have Katerblossom. Kate from No Small Games is joining me to talk about Sayonara Wild Hearts. And Kate is amazing. Huge fan of No Small Games, the podcast. Big fan of the Katerblossom stream as well.

[00:00:41] She's on Twitch and she's streaming occasionally, semi-regularly. I don't know. I don't want to speak for you there. It depends on the month and phase of my life. But yeah, sometimes I'm streaming like a couple times a month. Well, go follow. It's a good time every time she's up there streaming. I was actually thinking about this as I was planning out the March schedule.

[00:01:03] I had guested on the No Small Games podcast and I asked Kate and Emily, the two co-hosts there, like what some of their favorite games were, what some of their favorite indie games that I needed to play were. And Emily's answer was, I believe Octodad, Dadliest Catch, which I had played before. And then Kate had said Sayonara Wild Hearts, which is a game that has actually been, I'm kind of embarrassed to say, has been recommended to me a lot because it's been a while since it's been out now.

[00:01:33] And then I was like, you know, finally, I'm going to do this. I'm going to play it. But I want to say that it was later that week. It was on sale for like seven bucks or something on PlayStation. And so I was like, OK, it's a sign. I'm going to grab it. And I played through it and I was like, oh, my gosh, I wonder. I was like, I got to get Kate on the show to talk about this because I'm just really excited to have to talk to you about this game, why you like it so much. And yeah, so that's what we're going to do.

[00:02:02] We're going to talk about this, just a brief snapshot of the game. This is Simogo. This is a developer. It is published by Annapurna Interactive. I'm going to have Kate kind of explain because she wrote in here a really good genre descriptor. But before we do that real quick, it was released December 12th, 2019.

[00:02:21] Now, funnily enough, this game as of early March, I believe, 2025, it actually got a free PS5 update, which wild, which is wild and was great timing for me, actually. So I played it, the PS4 version on PS5 and then a little just a tiny like one level of the PS5 version. And Kate, you've played this on Switch PC and Steam Deck. Is that right? Yeah.

[00:02:47] And I feel like the stars really aligned for you to play this game at this time. That's really cool to know. Yeah, I got it on sale. And then in February, I was like, okay, I'm finally going to play this game. And then they announced shortly after that it'd be on PS5 also or updated to PS5. Also, I have to say, I did not play it on the Steam Deck. That was my goal when I wrote these notes. But I only played it on Switch and PC.

[00:03:11] But yeah, most of my gameplay for this game has been on the Switch since I bought it, I want to say like over a year ago. I don't even know what time is. It could have been two years ago. But I've mostly played it on the Switch docked the first time, which was a great experience. Speakers all the way up and then handheld for most of the time after that. Nice. Okay, very cool. Now, we're coming back to this. But Kate's description of the genre of this game, I like a lot.

[00:03:40] And I agree with it. A pop album video game slash pop arcade. So what were your thoughts kind of using that as the description of the game? Well, this is actually so I always refer to it as an album because that's what it feels like to me. But then I was doing some digging today thinking about what is Sayonara Wild Hearts like as a genre and how do I best describe it? And I actually went to the Samogo because I think I always call it an indie pop video game album is what I was calling it.

[00:04:10] Okay. And then I went to the Samogo site today, the Sayonara Wild Hearts page. And this is actually what they call it. They call it a pop album video game slash pop arcade, which I think fits really well because it does have that arcade feel and style and gameplay. But really, to me, it's an album because as you go, you kind of unlock a different song and it really does play like an album. And just like listening to a CD or any album, you can go back and replay your favorites and re-listen to them.

[00:04:40] So I really think that they kind of nailed that with the game description there, the description of the genre. Yeah, I think you're totally right. And what I like about this too, this idea of it being like an album is that it really does kind of use what music as an artistic medium has really polished, right? This is how music releases. It releases in albums, right? At least now.

[00:05:07] Really random fact here for you all, but album, like the idea of an album originates from photography, right? Because you can have photo albums. Yeah, I see it. Yeah, so something that I learned in a course I took in grad school, there was this professor who I worked with who taught the class,

[00:05:29] who had done research on photo albums in like early, like late 19th century, early 20th century Spain, when the camera starts getting really popular. And I thought this was super fascinating because people used to like highly curate their photo albums. Just like Instagram. Just, we just came full circle with social media.

[00:05:54] But I don't know, it seemed interesting to just know that like people, if you were to present, and this is oftentimes people who are wealthy, they could afford a camera, right? And if you were to have developed photos arranged and put into an album, oftentimes like on display, like on a coffee table for somebody to look at, like it was like a super snooty cultural practice. Interesting. To have this, but it was accepted, right?

[00:06:21] Among like the social elite to be like, this is how I want to present these photos that I have. And they're collected in a book. And that was supposed to make them like more prestigious, seemingly. And I wonder what the photos, like, would it be like photos of them on vacation or like photos of their possessions? Because if it was like a wealthy thing to do, like I'm like, what were they taking pictures of? I don't know. From what I remember, it was pictures of themselves, mostly. It was like the original selfies.

[00:06:52] Come look. Oh my gosh, we have come full circle, right? Because your social media account oftentimes is all about you and it's photos of you and just like the things that you're doing, right? It's like... Yeah. It's just more accessible now, I guess, sort of. I mean, smartphones are expensive, but yeah, that's really interesting. I like bringing the photography imagery in there because I never think of photography when I hear album. Like I always think of music. Yeah. So do I, right?

[00:07:20] And this is my really long introduction into this one tiny thought that I had is that, you know, albums, music albums are very much curated kind of in this style. I feel like they're not necessarily super snooty anymore. Sometimes they are. But the idea really is like, how do I present this collection of songs so it's like interesting and palatable and that you listen from the beginning to the end? So that's the point. That was the tiny point that I wanted to make.

[00:07:49] And so to say Sayonara Wild Hearts is an album to me, like makes so much sense. Like it's highly curated and it's highly designed and super intentional in the way that it presents each song as you're working your way through it. So true. Oh boy. Okay. Sorry, folks. I just... Photography. Photography. It's in my brain right now, apparently. All right.

[00:08:17] So let's talk. Folks, if you're familiar with the Indie Impressions episodes, you kind of know how this goes. But essentially, we will be talking about Sayonara Wild Hearts in a few categories. We'll be talking art direction, narrative, game design, and then finally, who we recommend this game for. And so that's kind of where we'll start. Art direction, especially with a game like this, we're going to talk a lot about the music, probably more so than we do in most episodes because this game...

[00:08:47] Well, because it's a video game pop album, right? And we need to discuss that. But yeah, just kind of starting with this. Kate, what stands out most to you when it comes to artistic presentation or direction for this game? There's so much to say and so much that stands out. But I think just a little context for the first time that I played this game, I actually was...

[00:09:13] I was listening to Underplayed that Bopo and Disco Cola host and they reviewed this game. And I had never even heard of it before, but I heard their review and I was like... I remember I was driving to work and I thought to myself, I'm going to play that game tonight. Like that game sounds really cool. So I came home from work and I downloaded it on my Switch and I turned off all the lights in my apartment and I docked my Switch and I turned the volume all the way up. And I was like, I'm just going to like play it and see what happens.

[00:09:42] And, you know, it starts, the music's going, the visuals right off the bat, they're like, it's blue and it's pink and there's hearts everywhere. It's very visually exciting. And then the music really matches that, like right when you begin. So I kind of was immediately like, whoa, what is about to happen? Like I have no idea, but I was just so excited. Like my heart was racing. And then you kind of get into the first, you know, movement of the game, which is the Claire DeLune song.

[00:10:10] And I was just immediately like, like, I think I just started crying right away. And I was like, wow, I don't even know what's about to happen, but I know it's going to be good. So that was kind of like the history of why I played this game and kind of what got me interested in it was hearing the two of them review it. So, yeah, I think like, you know, visually it really does, it sticks to a very strict color palette.

[00:10:34] It's got like the blues, the purples and pinks for most of it, which I really love when games do that. Like I like kind of knowing what I'm looking at. And I feel like when they have a dedicated limited color palette, it just really does something for me. So, yeah, that was kind of the first thing I noticed was like, okay, the colors, the theme. And then you're the characters kind of don't really have super detailed facial features.

[00:11:00] They're more just like even like silhouettes, but they are specifically dressed and shaped. So I don't know, really interesting right away. Yeah. First, I just love that that's how you had that experience. Lights off, volume up. Honestly, if you haven't played this game before, I would kind of recommend that you would do that. I feel like that's totally like I understand that maybe playing this game on headphones would be really fantastic.

[00:11:28] But this game is so like loud, like you're saying in all like definitions of the word loud, like in visual presentation, like what is doing musically, like that opening track where it's Claire de Lune, but it's electronic to me. It's like that's a super bold, really well-known, you know, classical piece of music. And to kind of like start with this, it's loud. Like it is totally unashamed of what it is.

[00:11:57] And so I feel like playing it loud makes a lot of sense. I love that you shared that. Yeah. And great shout out to Underplayed. Bo and Disco Cola are both fantastic. Definitely give them a listen when you get a chance to. Yeah, that what an awesome way to play it. But I just totally agree. There's something about the way that this game presents itself that is just like instantly captivating. Like I hate that I have this thought sometimes, but sometimes I'm like, dang,

[00:12:26] I hope this isn't a game where I get like tempted to look at my phone while I'm playing it. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You know, this is yeah. This is a game where you're locked in. I would say I was locked in from the beginning and I did not move like I did not move until I finished the game as another piece of that. And if you really like I also love maximalism. So it's nice. I love that, you know, some things in games can be subtle and they don't give you everything right away.

[00:12:53] But I love how this game I think what you said is like it's not ashamed. I don't know what the term you said was, but it really kind of just shows you who like this game shows you what it is right off the bat. And I really like that because I'm like, oh, they're leaning into loudness and bright colors and femininity. And also just like the experience of heartbreak and love, which I'm all about that. So I was just hooked right away. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

[00:13:22] It just has an identity and it was just not ashamed of it by at all. And I think that I'm totally with you. I think that's really cool. And I think it's definitely for me, as soon as the first little bit started, my phone was put away. You know, like I just knew I was like, you know what? This game is going to demand a lot of my attention and not just because of how it plays. Right. Like it's high paced. You're trying to collect as many hearts as you possibly can as you're working away through different levels.

[00:13:51] There's a lot happening and quickly. I think that's the one thing about this game, too, is like, I don't know. I kind of expected it to just be not necessarily breezy, but I didn't expect that I had to think so much maybe playing it. But this game is like, all right, let's test your reaction time on some of these things. Like you've really got to have, you know, your fingers on the trigger on the on the controller at all times going through here. Yeah.

[00:14:20] And I agree that there is something about just. I don't know. Coming back to this idea of it being really unashamed of what it is.

[00:14:31] It's a game about heartbreak, which playing through this game kind of made me realize it's such a shame that stories of like heartbreak and breaking up or love lost or whatever are considered so cliche when it is such a tremendously common life experience shared across like all people. Why? You know, and we don't need to get into this or a lot of reasons why.

[00:14:57] But it just made me think, dang, it is such a shame that we consider this such a watered down, boring, broken like trope or story to tell. When this game was just super loud about it. And I was invested like from the get go. I was invested in the in the protagonist. I was like, oh, my gosh, your heart was broken. Let's see what you do now. You know, let's see how you come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:21] And it's also like so the game like visually takes you at the beginning to this place where it's like we see our protagonist and she's just like a normal girl. She's she has a long board. And then she like goes into this world, into this world of Sayonara Wild Hearts. And she all of a sudden like goes through this magical girl transformation, like very Sailor Moon. And she becomes the fool. She becomes like the fool in a tarot card deck, I guess you could say.

[00:15:48] So really, I look at it as the story of the fool, which kind of relates to the major tarot cards that you'll see in the game. But that story to me is always about like, you know, like a good hearted protagonist is the fool. And then they go on the fool's journey and they become who they're supposed to be through this journey. So I think the game sets you up visually for that in a really like simple way. But it makes sense. But you don't have to think about it too much because mostly it's about to me, it's about the vibes and music.

[00:16:18] But they do have that little bit of story kind of bringing you through visually at the beginning. Yeah. And I like how you phrased that. I do. I don't want to discount the story that's in this game because there is a story and you do follow the fool kind of through these adventures or misadventures or however we want to categorize them. But at the same time, it's like come along for the ride. Yes. And the game very much is a ride, I think, in many, many ways.

[00:16:46] But it's just like, come on, just go on this journey with this person and just kind of see what they do. And I thought that was, yeah, really lovely. But the music in this game, as obviously the music is such a key component to it. Like I mentioned, starting with Claire de Lune to me felt like just an incredibly bold choice. Yeah. But as I was listening to it, and the funny thing too is that in one of the classes that I'm teaching this semester, timing is wild with this game.

[00:17:15] We had just gone over Claire de Lune. Oh, really? What was the context? Like were you analyzing the story, like the message or the person or the music or all of it? Well, we were talking about, well, so this class is just an introduction to humanities class and is part of the music unit.

[00:17:35] And so I was just using it as like, okay, this is like a representation of how this music has changed in its songwriting or not so much change, but evolved, has forked paths. And that songs traditionally, like in classical music were written with movements. And then contemporarily in any type of popular music, it's albums, right? It's individual songs that sort of comprise of like one collection that's an album.

[00:18:03] But even within a song, like in the pop song structure tends to be, right, like introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, interlude, chorus, repeat until you finish the song. And how that sort of song structure as it fits into three minutes has varied quite a lot for movements, which Claire de Lune is a movement, right, of a piece. So it's just one section.

[00:18:28] I believe it's, I want to say it's a second movement of a three movement piece, but that's the movement that's popular now. And so I was actually using it to talk about movement structure where you tend to have, you have like themes and motifs that build upon each other and they're rearranged throughout a movement or throughout the entire like symphonic piece, if that's what it is. As opposed to verse, chorus, verse, chorus and how that's designed.

[00:18:54] So anyway, again, really like way too much information to make a single point. But I had. Well, this is kind of like a movement, too, when you think about it, like the game, because like at the you can play in that mode if you unlock if you get gold on everything. Can't you play in? I forget what it's called that mode where you can play through the whole thing in one like it like a movement. So I don't know. I think that's cool. That's cool to think about. Yeah, I mean, now I'm looking that up.

[00:19:24] I have a thousand tabs open right now. But yeah. So, yeah. Claire de Lune was on my mind and I was listening to it. And it's funny because we had picked another Debussy piece where we had listened to the piano, the original that Debussy had written versus a cover from, I want to say the 70s. My gosh, I'm blanking on his name. But it's a Japanese composer who did a lot with synthesizers.

[00:19:50] And so we were listening to the difference of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. And it sounds entirely different when you have, you know, classical arrangement, orchestra arrangement versus something that's purely synthetic.

[00:20:31] Mm-hmm. Like, it's hard to really put a feeling on it because it kind of captures a lot of different vibes the Claire de Lune song does. Like, it can be kind of sad or hopeful or romantic. Like, I feel like it's used in so many different contexts in media. So I like that they chose to start the game with this song because it's just a great opener. Yeah. I love that. This song has been used in so many contexts.

[00:21:00] It's kind of snowballed lots of different meanings. Right? Mm-hmm. The cover I'm thinking of is Isau Tomita, which I do recommend listening to. This is the cover of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. Cool. I'll definitely listen to it. But yeah. Interesting stuff. So the music from the get-go, everything's got me hooked. Just that. I love the art direction.

[00:21:25] I got to say that this being also a shorter game, being kind of, I guess, on the long side of an album. But it worked too because I never was tired of what the game had to offer the whole way through. Yeah. You didn't get sick of the music. I didn't. I don't know. Good. I liked it. It's not music that I typically listen to. But I'm typically listening to like, I'm originally from the Pacific Northwest. So something that's like kind of sad. It has to be-

[00:21:54] Like guitar guy in the mountains music? Guitar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of it. I was going to ask you what kind of music you like and if you like pop music. Because I feel like I love pop music. So I'm a big fan of Carly Rae Jepsen, which is cited as one of the inspirations for this game. So yeah, I really want to know how people feel about it that don't love pop music.

[00:22:18] I mean, I guess my answer to that question is I don't think this game would have worked with a different genre of music, to be honest. Because it is so loud. And what I love about the way that it uses pop music, again, it's just pop music is considered. And I used to think this way. And I'm so sorry, pop music enjoyers. I used to think that pop music was just really boring and commercial and blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:47] You know, I didn't want to conform to the mainstream, right? But listen, pop music has its own aesthetic and it has its own thing going for it. And I just think in a game like this, it just feels like to me, it's so much about identity and just being who you are. That it needed to and because it like subverted my expectations about a heartbreak story, which again is considered like really trite and dumb and boring.

[00:23:18] To me, it was like, it was kind of almost a middle finger. I got this feeling from this game to people who are like, to anybody who's like, you don't like pop music because it's pop music. Well, guess what? Pop music can be good. And it can actually be the best type of music for the story we're telling here. You don't like stories about heartbreak. Well, guess what? That's the story that we have here and we're going to tell it in our way. And it's, this is what we need to tell right now. So I don't know. I guess I don't listen to this music very often.

[00:23:46] A few of these tracks, I've been like, okay, sometimes I think about them and I pull them up. But I don't think this game would have worked if it was different. I love what you said about pop music because I honestly have been guilty of the same things before. Like, I don't want to like what everybody thinks is popular or I don't want to like things that I guess I would call basic.

[00:24:09] But I've really, I guess I would say mostly in the past like four or five years have really come around to pop music and kind of enjoyed it and honestly celebrated the artistry of it. Because I think that it does a lot of good in the sense where it like, I don't know. I think about artists like Chapel Rhone or Sabrina Carpenter, which they play with genres, but I guess you would call it pop or even Carly Rae Jepsen.

[00:24:33] And pop, like every song at some point is about love, you know, or some type of love feeling. But I feel like in pop music, it is very, it's not subtle. Like when they're talking about heartbreak or, you know, a lover, like they're just kind of putting it all out there in a way that this game definitely does. So I didn't really connect that parallel between like the style of pop music.

[00:25:00] But yeah, pop music totally is going to just show you like they're going to just show you who they are and talk about things in a way that's not difficult to understand. They're going to talk about getting their hearts broken very literally. Yeah. And honestly, I agree. That's I think one of the advantages or one of the things that pop music just can do without consequence is just in very simple terms, express a feeling or an emotion. Right. I love it.

[00:25:29] And that's fine, too. You know, we don't all need to be like cryptic, abstract lyricists, you know, slowly plucking through like the most obscure feelings that don't have names. Like, yeah, there's a time and a place for that kind of music and stuff, too. But sometimes it's just really refreshing to listen to somebody just outright kind of say this is this is what I'm feeling and this is why, you know.

[00:25:52] And honestly, there's even pop music that when they do that, they tend to get even like political message across like across in a much more coherent way or a much simpler and digestible way. Then I love that. Then, yeah, those those brooding indie hipsters that I listen to most of the time who I love. That's so true. No, that's so true. I feel like it's also I don't know.

[00:26:22] There is something else that you said that had me had me thinking, but I kind of lost it. But, yeah, I I do love I love the music and it is pop music. Like, I don't know how else you would describe. They say it's an it's a pop video game album. I was also reading that, I guess, when they were designing this game, Samogo, they were like playtesting one of the levels and they just happened to have had pop music playing in the background.

[00:26:47] And they were talking about how it just looked perfect and it just went with what they were doing, designing the game. And so that was kind of like the inspiration to put a pop pop music behind all of these these levels. So I think that's really cool. Oh, that's cool. That. Yeah. Well, it works. It works, guys. It works. Yeah, I just I know I've said this already, but I just don't think it would have been. I just don't think it would have worked in another way.

[00:27:16] It would have felt too different. There's a game that I play not too long ago called Under the Waves, and it's a sad dad game. It's about a man who is a father and he's very sad. There are other aspects to it. But the point I want to get across here is that like there's just like indie slightly distorted guitar music kind of playing in the background of all of it.

[00:27:40] And it was funny because I don't remember who I was talking to, but they were also playing the game simultaneously. Like we were playing at the same time. And I was like, hey, it's a sad dad indie game to go with sad dad indie rock. Perfect. And you know what? There's a time and place for that, too. Yeah. But yeah, I'm really glad that the time and place kind of worked with Sire Now Wild Hearts. Listen, we've kind of talked. We're talking.

[00:28:09] We're taking on the whole music industry all at once here, you know, as we're talking about the art direction. Is there anything else like specific to the game's art direction that you want to touch on? Um, I don't know. I just think like it's it definitely just has to be experienced because the way that each song flows between the previous song and the next song, like the flow is really nice.

[00:28:34] And I also really like how whatever you're doing for each level, like whatever your mechanics are, are really matching with the music so well. Like on the really, really fast paced songs, you are driving a motorcycle and you are going so freaking fast and it looks beautiful. So I really like how visually they're matching whatever the the song is, if that makes sense. That was something I noticed, especially my second playthrough.

[00:28:59] If moments are kind of in a song or going a little bit more slowly, you're going to move a little bit more slowly. So I really, really appreciated that. Um, I guess the cohesion between the the gameplay and visuals and the literal rhythm and like tempo of the songs. Yeah, I think that pretty succinctly put or describes just like how tightly packaged each level is and what the experience is overall.

[00:29:25] It all really flows together into like really, really neatly. And I just love that. Um, the music is obviously music that you can just like listen to outside the game, but it functions really well for specific like visual and audio cues for what's happening in each level. Because these levels, um, I would say for the most part, like have really good visual clarity.

[00:29:46] Like, you know where you're supposed to go and what you're doing, but there is some quick movement and shifting between like dimensions. I don't know, different like planes within one level. And yeah, man, I needed I needed that help. I needed the help that the art direction would give me to get through some of these sections of this game.

[00:30:09] And I will say to like you just made me think of how it can be sort of visually overwhelming and maybe even like listening to it can be overwhelming, too, because this is definitely a game I can't play like if I'm going to go to bed soon because it just gets me going like and the colors will change so quickly and you're moving so quickly through some of these levels that it can be like honestly kind of a little bit overstimulating. So, yeah, it goes fast, but I do love to go fast in games.

[00:30:39] Yeah, and this game feels really good to go fast in. It does. But yeah, I agree. There are some moments that I think were a little overwhelming just with whatever, like I'm thinking of some mechanics, but we can get to that later. We're kind of covering it all here. It's nighttime, folks. Cut us a little bit of slack. I'm ready for bed right after this. All right. So let's talk about the narrative of this game.

[00:31:07] And we've discussed it in really broad terms. But what I think is really interesting kind of in the narrative of Sinair Wild Hearts is it's like it feels like it might be a dream the whole way through. But at the same time, I feel like the game's like you don't really need to read into this. Like I'm sure there's like Easter eggs and little nuggets here and there.

[00:31:32] But I think the game like visually as you go through like these different worlds and these different levels, they're more in service of I think what we both described as kind of the vibes of this like fool's journey as you kind of just accompany her as she's going through heartbreak. Like and kind of and I just I don't know. We rarely talk. Don't talk spoilers. But man, I loved how it ended. This game ends on guys.

[00:32:02] It's a love story. So, you know how it ends. But like it ended in such a really like butterflies in your stomach way. And I just think that I don't know. This is this is my experience of the journey is that the first few levels I was like trying to like nitpick and kind of see what was going on. And then at one point I was just like, that's not this game. Like I can do that.

[00:32:26] But I think if I just played it and just followed the fool as she moves forward and kind of stumbles out of heartbreak into something else. That's kind of enough for me. So I don't know. I don't have a lot of like deep thoughts about what's happening narratively in the game. But I just felt like the storytelling was so much more like emotional than it was like plot event driven to like move you forward to something. And that really worked. I agree. It really works.

[00:32:55] And it is more of like I guess it's like the same as if you're listening to an album that could really move you where it's like you don't know exactly all of the context, but you don't need it because the the vibes give you such a powerful feeling. Like I know that, you know, a lot of people feel really get really emotional playing this game. And I can totally see why because it is just like so relatable, even though you don't know your name.

[00:33:23] You don't know, like the story, the exact story of your heartbreaks. But it just manages to tell that story through music and visuals and vibe, which I think is a really huge accomplishment. And it's funny how I've read a lot about this game and how a lot of people seem to say that it's made them them super emotional. So I think it's just kind of like telling the story of the human experience really well, because like you said earlier, heartbreak is a very universal experience.

[00:33:54] And so I appreciate that this game, you know, has that to offer to everybody, but also it feels like supergirl power at the same time. So I really can't think of of anyone who shouldn't play this game. But yeah, we'll get into that later. But yeah, the narrative I feel like is not the thing that I'm, you know, when I first played it, I'm like, what even was the story?

[00:34:15] But I don't really think that that's important, because like I said earlier, I feel like it's all about the vibe and experiencing heartbreak and like moving on from that. Yeah, I agree. One thought that I had just kind of listening to you kind of talk through your thoughts here is that when you are in like those moments of heartbreak,

[00:34:38] I feel like there's there's like, you know, that cloudy period, that foggy sort of period when you think back in your memories of like when that heartbreak happened, where you were out of it for a few days, a few weeks or how months, however long it really was. But you you still had to like go through your regular day. And so everything just kind of flows together at some point.

[00:35:00] And what really stands out are those specific feelings that you had to work through to kind of come out of that funk and just kind of like return to yourself. And so I think that this type of storytelling, again, maybe we just call this just like pure emotion storytelling. Right.

[00:35:20] Right. And I again, I think that when people people, there's this tendency to look down upon like emotional reaction or emotional expression or just talking about emotions or feelings broadly, which is so silly because this is something that we're dealing with on a daily basis. Again, that's another conversation. But what I appreciated about this game, it's like just feel these emotions, just kind of work through them and watch somebody work through them.

[00:35:47] And I think to me, that kind of brings us back to the foundation of just storytelling broadly. And it's to communicate your experience with somebody else so that they understand your experience or they understand the type of experience that you think is worth sharing. And like that's like the root of telling a story and why you want to tell a story. It's that communication. It's that relationship between people.

[00:36:14] And I just feel like this game was kind of like, you know, just screw it. We don't need to have names. We don't need to have like these super specific details. If the game is crafted well enough just so that the emotions resonate with players like that's enough. So. Oh, I love that. So true. Yeah. Felt good. But yeah. Do I have a lot of notes here? Mentally, I was just like, I don't know. I loved how it ended. It was like I said, and I'm speaking vaguely here.

[00:36:42] It was just, you know, the butterflies in your stomach. Yeah. There are these. I mean. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say there's specific moments in these like last songs that were just like really touching and cute. And I was just like, oh, that's so sweet. I know what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about. I feel like it's just nice to feel seen because I think you're right. Like when we go through these really heartbreaking experiences, it does kind of feel larger than life.

[00:37:12] But we have to keep doing our life like we have to still go to work. But internally, we're experiencing this very like confusing and big, scary, sad, sometimes like positive, like thinking back positively on times that we've had. It's a really strange experience, but it feels like larger than life. So I like kind of how this game illustrates that.

[00:37:34] Like they're like, listen, no matter how much you talked about your your breakup or your heartbreak, like if you didn't say anything about it all, this game is kind of seeing you through that. Like it's like it's like, yeah, we know that it feels all consuming, but you can kind of work work through that. So, yeah, I like what you said there. And I do feel like they didn't need anything more than they provided to tell the story. Yeah. Final thing here. I'm pulling this actually from Kate's notes.

[00:38:03] You mentioned this briefly. It does feel girl power, but in the best way possible. And what I mean by that is like sometimes that's used as like a really belittling way to describe a story like, oh, this story is just like girl power. And what people mean by that is like it just has something they disagree with about women. Typically, that's what that means, right?

[00:38:31] But there's, you know, the positive side, I think, of describing something like that. Like, for example, the Barbie movie to me is like this is very much a girl power movie. But for me, Barbie was a movie that was always about like it was like feminism was always about gender equality, folks. Like you don't need to think much harder than that. Like and I kind of feel like Sayonara Wild Hearts is kind of similar in that way. Like, yeah, you're following like a woman's perspective as breakups and a lot of characters.

[00:39:02] My gosh. Yeah. All the characters are women. I don't know. Yeah, I think they are. Well, I think they're all women or, you know, androgynous women. Like it's very that's kind of why I call it girl power, because I also view it as like a LGBTQ story as well, because all of the characters you're interacting with are also women. Well, so I don't know.

[00:39:24] There's but but like you're saying, I think you're saying this is like they're not really they're going about it in a really genuine way where it doesn't feel like over the top. Like they're not like this is a game about girls. This is a game about gays. They're like, no, this is a story that anyone could relate to. But we're we're choosing to focus on, you know, having women be the center of the story. Yeah, that is what I'm I'm getting at. It's super genuine.

[00:39:52] And none of the characters feel feel tokenized like like they're there just because or for whatever reason. Right. And that's that's one thing that I really loved about this type of a game is to me, it was just it was just the love story. Like that was that was it. And yeah, it's, you know, focused on women and there's LGBTQ themes in there. But these are people who also feel love and heartbreak and have love stories. You know what I mean?

[00:40:22] And so, yes. Right. Right. And so I guess for me, like, I don't I'm struggling to come up with a way to phrase this, but it just felt like a really basic love story in the best way possible. Like just this was a love story. And you get to experience it as this person does it and you get to feel their highs and lows with them. And I just think that's actually exceptionally difficult to pull off. Totally.

[00:40:47] To make a story where you have a lot of bad actors who are willing to jump on a story like this and say, like, well, this narrative is garbage because of the people they included in it with that just wholesale discounts. It's one groups of people, but to like, I think the storytelling here is really superbly genius and that it is just foundational. This is what everybody goes through and this is what everybody relates to regardless of who you are.

[00:41:15] And so if you have, you know, half a heart and you play Sionnare Wild Hearts, you're going to relate to kind of what is happening in the story regardless of who the characters are and who they love. That's a good point. I feel like if they got more specific, like provided any more detail with our characters, like they run that risk of not being like universally understood maybe or celebrated or accepted.

[00:41:40] Because, yeah, there was just enough like information there for people to, I think, feel seen and relatable. So I like that. Yeah. Hopefully express that okay. Those are thoughts that I haven't been able to figure out. But any other things about the narrative that you would like to talk about? I don't think so. All right. Game design. Holy cow. It's funny.

[00:42:07] I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation here that this game has been recommended to me a ton. And I think throughout all those recommendations, I still had no idea of how varied each level was. This game throws, I think, every single possible mechanic under the sun at you that has to do with going fast in some sort of arcade style game.

[00:42:30] And so, like I said earlier, one, I never got tired of it because it was constantly introducing or like reintroducing specific mechanics. But I don't know. This game kept me on my toes. I could not. I joke about this. When I get really like focused on a game, I'll get into gamer pose, which is feet flat on the floor, hand or elbows on knees, leaning forward, like looking at the screen.

[00:42:57] And just the way that people had talked about this game as something like being so emotional, as we've discussed, I figured this would be one to be like half laying on the couch, you know, you know, playing it sideways or whatever. But now this game demanded a lot from me, I think mechanically. What was your experience with it?

[00:43:17] I think I felt similarly, but for me, it was just the perfect amount of like stimulation and calling my attention because it does require that you pay attention and it kind of switches up the perspective throughout each level or the speed. It will change something which keeps it really exciting. But I also feel like at the same time, just so approachable because it's like a one button game. So you don't really have to think about I have to press my button to go fast.

[00:43:47] You're kind of more just thinking about like, where am I going to navigate my character to like get all of the hearts, which is such a genius design, in my opinion, because it's like, OK, I know the rules of the game, like every level. I'm just going to have to move to the right spot to get the hearts. It's so very clear objective and like but then they managed to keep it interesting mechanically by like switching up perspectives and speed and things like that and even like gameplay styles.

[00:44:15] Yeah, yeah, you're totally right. They really streamlined like the button inputs, right? Like you said, one button game, right? And I think a lot of the levels are like that. It felt like shifting between lanes.

[00:44:29] Like I actually kept thinking about certain Sonic games when you play where there's kind of like when in the Sonic levels where you're like riding on rails, like literally you'll just click like left or right on the D pad or your thumbstick or whatever just to just hop from one rail to another. And I felt like this game was like that for the most part.

[00:44:53] If I had one criticism for the game, it's that my old man brain could not keep up with some of the changes as they were coming. This is it's funny. So in aviation, which I don't know a whole lot about. Don't think I do. It's just because my dad is really into it. He said when you're getting your pilot's license, they talk a lot about information saturation, which is what it sounds like. It's when your brain gets saturated with lots of different information simultaneously.

[00:45:21] And you need to be able to process and remain calm in those types of scenarios. And I feel like in video games, that can happen quite a lot, too. And my default reaction if I have information saturation is my brain just is like stops. I stop processing all the information. I feel like Sire and I are Wild Hearts actually does a really good job of managing that. But some levels are were freaking tough for me.

[00:45:48] And I think specifically because of information saturation where there's just a lot of things happening on screen. You're cruising through a level. You're trying to get hearts, but you're also avoiding obstacles. There's one level I'm blanking on the name of it, but I want to say it's about two thirds, three fourths of the way through. Where you do like literally phase through different dimensions, kind of.

[00:46:12] It's like one of these inner city levels where there's a very specific beat to it. Like on the third beat, you would flip and you would be in like a different plane. So like it's an inner city level. So you're on like one highway. And then every I think what I'm remembering is third beat. You would switch to like a different highway in the same city with different obstacles. So like that one for me, I was like locked into gamer mode.

[00:46:39] And I was like, OK, I really got to focus like all of my energy into navigating this portion of the level. But thankfully, this game has super generous checkpoints. Yes. So when I was hung up on moments like that and I had to redo them several times. One, you like don't lose the hearts that you collected. So if you were like doing super well collecting points, you know, you can take a breather. And then you just figure out how to work through a section. And then you just do it and then you continue.

[00:47:08] Or you can even skip a section after X number of failures. And so I would say, yes, this game, at least for me, has information saturation like really bad at some points. But the game has measures built in to just kind of help you either navigate that or to just skip it if you really have to. I think that's definitely one of the things that makes it such a great game, in my opinion, is because, yeah, you can't.

[00:47:34] And the first time I played through it, if I couldn't move past a certain section in a level when it gave me that option, Queen Latifah's voice comes up and she's like, would you like to skip this? And I'm just like, yeah, like, let's skip it. I'm just like having a good time, you know, like I'm not trying to get any certain ranks that my first play through. Like I was just totally into the vibe. So I did skip a lot of sections. So I think it's really cool that they offer that.

[00:48:01] They also give you the option of saying never ask me again, like if you want to skip a section. So no matter how many times you fail, you just can keep doing it and doing it until you get through it. And like you said, you don't lose your hearts, which is such a great way to, I think, for me as the type of gamer that I am, to get me to keep playing the game and keep going. Like it doesn't feel so frustrating and impossible to continue. Yeah.

[00:48:28] From what I understand, you just need to get through a level to unlock the next one. Now there's bronze, silver, and gold ranks. And is there a perfect rank? I don't know. I think our friend Cecily has like 100% of this game and done like the most that you can do in this game. Like she's played on wild rank and YOLO arcade and all of that stuff. Oh, dang.

[00:48:53] But I've never, I have silver ranks on all the levels, gold ranks on some levels, but I'm still working on getting gold rank on every level. Yeah. Yeah. I ended my first play through, my goal is to hit silver on everything. I got silver on all of them. I got gold, I think on two or three, but I think there was just one where I was like, you know what? I'm just, I'm happy with a bronze here. Yeah. Mine is parallel universes. That one is so hard for me.

[00:49:21] I can't remember the name of it, but. It's when it switches back and forth, like the little fans switch positions. So you can very easily hit one of the fans and have to start over. It's so hard for me to remember that. Yeah. What a tough one. I mean, this is the thing though. Like, it's so funny because we're talking about this game and I hope we're not giving the impression that it's just like,

[00:49:48] I don't know, just like entirely only vibes. The game has a lot of like mechanics in it and it's not an easy game, but like you're getting at is, I just love there's a lot of breadth of how you can play this game. Yeah. If you do want to play it vibes only, you can play it vibes only. But the game actually feels so good to play that there were some levels where I was like, I remember I ended one level, I was like less than a thousand points off from gold rank.

[00:50:17] I was like, nope, we're doing this until we get gold rank. And so there's enough built in, like enough incentive to built in just for you to improve as you go through each level. So you can kind of choose your own difficulty as you're playing the game, which I think one is kind of tricky to do. But I think with this kind of arcade system and points, there is room for that. And I think that mechanically, like the game is tough.

[00:50:44] Like in some sections, I make it sound like it's a crazy hard. Like actually, if you want to get gold star in the game, it is freaking hard. It is freaking hard, right? Yeah. Anyway, the point I'm just getting at is, I don't know, if you want to kind of create those challenges for yourself, you can. And the game is like, sure, you want to go harder? Well, get a gold star, you know, do this thing.

[00:51:07] And then I looked up the trophy list afterwards and I was like, oh my gosh, if you want to 100% this game, Cecily, she's got all my respect. Oh my gosh. Right? If you want to get a platinum trophy, you want to get 100% achievements on this, dude, you got to be insanely good at this game. It is. And that's why I love it because you can have a really challenging gameplay experience if that's what you're looking for.

[00:51:31] And I feel like in a lot of games that try to be like, I guess, approachable, but also, you know, appeal to, I guess, every type of gamer. I don't actually see a lot of games do that super well. But I feel like this game really can. It really can appeal to all types of gamers because if you want to spend hours and be super dedicated to getting the gold ranks, you really could do that. And it's going to be hard. Yeah, I meant to look it up.

[00:52:01] This reminds me before we talked. I wanted to look up speed runs and challenge runs of this game because long-time listeners of the Period of Bonus podcast probably know that I love speed runs and challenge runs. I love watching that stuff on Twitch and I have huge, like, you know, games done quick and all that stuff. I'm a big fan of those events just because I think it's cool that people take this stuff and they want to just really challenge themselves with it.

[00:52:28] But, yeah, this game, I just imagine that people have done really incredible things in the game. Amazing. Amazing speed runs, no doubt. And I feel like what I like about this game because I played it, replayed it recently for to be prepared for this discussion. I found on my second playthrough, I was so, I wanted, I was chasing those gold ranks and I was even getting them sometimes.

[00:52:50] So, like, that also kind of tells me that my gameplay or, like, my habits as a gamer or what I'm trying to get out of a gaming experience are kind of changing since the last time I, the first time I played this game. So, yeah, I think that that's really cool. So, I'm glad that you found, like, your happy medium there of, like, chasing those ranks but also being able to move on when you just didn't want to keep going. Yeah. Yeah, very cool that that can happen.

[00:53:19] Let's see, like, in terms of just game design, I mean, each level is going to be, you know, a speed dash from beginning to end. And essentially, the mechanics are going to change quite a lot in there. Sometimes you have to, it's all about button press timing. It really is a collect-a-thon in each level. You're trying to collect as many hearts as possible. That's how you get the points for the different rankings.

[00:53:45] And there's one level, one of my favorite levels actually was, I guess you would call it a boss level, but it's this very digital level that's, like, old school asteroids where you're, like... The world we knew, the one that's, like, Atari. Yes. Atari type. Yeah. That's one of my favorites, too. It's so good. Such a great level. And, yeah, there's just so much variety in there. Just, in the other level, I think it's Forest Ghost. Mm-hmm.

[00:54:14] Where you're riding on the deer. That one's really fun. I guess that one might be... I'm, like, kind of saying it in air quotes, boss levels. They're, like, boss levels because of what? Who you're up against. Because you're typically, like, up against another tarot card, you know, figure or whatever. But I think those two were probably my favorite ones. The last two levels were really tough for me. I spent a lot of time on those ones. Did you have other favorite levels, though?

[00:54:45] Yeah. So, I agree about the last couple levels. Like, the last level is actually not that fun for me. It's one of my least favorites. Until you get to, like, the positive part of it, I guess you would say. Right. But my favorites are The World We Knew, which is the Atari one that we were just... That is also one of your favorites. Mm-hmm. I really like Mine. That's the one with the two, like, twin-looking characters and the swords. And you're, like, running through the city. Your wild heart glitters. I love that song.

[00:55:14] I've played mine probably the most out of any of the levels. Like, every once in a while, I'm like, you know, I've had a rough day. I just need to play mine. I just need to play that one level. And then everything's going to be okay. Okay. But my favorite one is Fighting Hearts. That's the one that is, I would say, has the most, like, rhythm mechanics of, like, you have to hit the button on this beat. Okay. And it's really short. It's just, like, yeah, it's the one where you're fighting with the rhythm button. Oh.

[00:55:44] And there's, like, magical girls in the air, like, shooting little lasers down at you. And then you're, like, jumping on the motorcycle and doing spins. And then you're driving through the city. There's kind of a lot going on. But it's really short. But I just, like, that's one of my favorite, I guess, mechanics in the game is when you have to hit the button on the right beat. So I really liked Fighting Hearts as well. That was a good one. That one's early on, right, in the game. Yeah. Very good one.

[00:56:14] I think as far as levels that are least enjoyable, that last one, yeah, it is a gauntlet. I'm kidding. Because it's really long, too. And then I just had it pulled up, the name of it. I think it's Night Drift. Oh, that one, yeah. Where you're just, like, drifting the whole time. Yeah. I'm, like, really bad. I think we talked about this, actually, in the Lake DLC episode.

[00:56:39] I'm not normally very good with driving cars and games as it is. And then to have a car that just, like, fishtailed very easily. And then at one point, there's, like, barriers that come up. I was, like, oh, no. Like, I was, like, this is, I don't know, folks. I don't know about this one. Actually, that might be the one that I got a bronze rank on it. And I was, like, you know what? I'm fine with this. I'm happy with that. I'm fine with the bronze on this one. So, yeah. I don't know.

[00:57:06] I think there's a slight chance that you might run into, because there's so much variety, that you're going to run into a level that's just not going to be your favorite one. But by the same token, you're going to find one that you're going to, like, oh, that you just love so much. Like, for me, it was Forest Ghost. I loved Forest Ghost. I don't know. I love that you love that one. And I think that one is, like, you got some tricky stuff going on there because there's a lot of trees.

[00:57:36] Or you're going fast, and then when you hit the button on the rhythm, you're kind of, like, flipping into, like, another platform-y area. So that one is really exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Exciting, I think, is the right word for that one. But they're all so good. I love them all, but I do have my favorites. But they are all worth playing. All the levels are, I would say. Yeah. I agree. And like we mentioned, that sort of first tutorial or Claire de Lune level, the way

[00:58:05] that it just, it was a really fun one to play, but also just the way that it sets the tone for what it is that you're going to be doing throughout the rest of the game. It just does it beautifully. Definitely. Any other things about game design that you'd like to chat about before we move towards the end of the episode? I don't think so. I think I did just want to touch on, and I don't know if this is the right time, but just that I've shared this game with a lot of people who are gamers and non-gamers.

[00:58:35] And they do always seem to love it. And it's really special to watch non-gamers play this game because they can do it, right? Like it's really doesn't ask that much of you to just like move your little, your gal on a motorcycle around. So I think a lot of people when they experience this game, they don't realize that video games can be like this if they don't typically play games. Um, so I just love it so much for that reason as well.

[00:59:03] I think the game design is, is really, really genius in that regard where it can offer a really special and approachable experience to someone who, uh, is not familiar with, with video games. Yeah. And I think that's a perfect transition into the final part of this Indie Impressions episode, just who we would recommend this game for. Um, I'll just say quickly, anybody who likes shorter games, um, anybody who wants to play a game all in one go. So I had asked Kate and I'd ask some other people if they've recommended that I played

[00:59:33] this game just in one sitting or not. And I got, I, I think the answer I got, and I can't remember if this is what you said, it's just like, if you just feel like, uh, going like to keep going, then do it. Don't stop because of anything. So I sat down, I played this at one go. I thought that was the best way for me to play it. Um, because I mean, it's like listening to an entire album, you know, in one sitting as well too. Um, it took me, I want to say 90 minutes maybe.

[01:00:02] And that was with some levels where I was determined to get a silver or gold star ranking. So I think if you just wanted to get through the game, it could be even faster than that. But yeah, I would say just if you're looking for something lighthearted, something short, something that you can play all at once, um, then this is a really excellent game for you to pick up. And it's been out for quite a while now. I think 2019, right? That's what we said.

[01:00:29] December 2019 is when this game came out. So it's like regularly on sale. Like I said, I grabbed it for like seven bucks. Well worth, well worth, uh, the money, I would say even a full price. Totally. Totally. And it's on mobile too, which I haven't played on mobile, but isn't that cool? Honestly, I feel like this would play really well on mobile. Yeah. And like a lot of people have smartphones, they don't have a console.

[01:00:57] I feel like this is just another great offering for people like that. And again, just like reinforces that it's a great game for, for people who are curious about gaming or interested in trying something new. I am looking this up right now on mobile because I honestly think that this game would work so dang well on mobile. But yeah. And I like that too. You want a game.

[01:01:21] I mean, I always think it's very cool when a game, um, works really well on mobile because yeah, that's where everybody's got a phone or most people have phones and it's just like an easy way to introduce them into something fun. Right. And so, uh, before your eyes is one that I recommend also too, because it's on mobile. Although that one, is it, is it fun? It is quite the emotional journey, but I guess this one is too.

[01:01:50] Is that the one that it reads like the camera, like reads your eyes? Is that that game? Yeah. So every time you blink, you progress the game. Wild. I want to play that one. Oh boy. Quick, quick aside here. Um, so before your eyes is a game that I've assigned students before and it is a, not students don't necessarily love it, but I think every single student that I've used, that I've

[01:02:18] taught video games with, um, before your eyes has walked away with a really strong appreciation for what video games are capable of. That's what I'm all about. So I'm going to have to check it out immediately. It is a very cool game in that way. Um, but yeah, other people that you would recommend, I mean, I think you kind of said it well, it's hard. I can't think of somebody I wouldn't recommend this game to. Yeah, I do.

[01:02:45] I feel like my list is, is really long, but basically the short of it is if you like romance, maximalism, um, you know, I feel like if you did just go through a heartbreak, it'd be a great time to play this game. It's a little specific, but, um, you know, Florence kind of has this going on as well, which is one of my favorite games. Like if you've kind of just been through something, something difficult in a relationship, it'd be a good time to play.

[01:03:11] Um, so yeah, I, I feel like we've both talked a lot about who we like that. Anyone should, should check this out. I don't think you have to be a music lover or even a lover of pop music to enjoy this game and, and check it out. So I, I guess I recommend it to, to everybody because like we were saying earlier too, it's really got something to offer for the, for the challenge runners and the trophy hunters as well. It's just really got something for everybody. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:38] Kind of amazing that they're able to do that in a single game just to make that it's super accommodating for just a lot of different people. And then like you said, and this will be the last thing, um, but I want to echo what you said is this is a really easy game to recommend to people who don't play video games, which is I think really hard to do. So there are some games that I really love. Like for example, I've talked about Cuphead a lot and I love Cuphead, but if you don't

[01:04:07] play video games, you're going to have a bad time. Or if you do play video games, you might have a bad time. Or if you do play video games, you might have a bad time, right? Or like it's, um, I remember the first time that Dark Souls got recommended to me, um, which now I'm a Souls kind of diehard. I love them. But, uh, what was it? I first played Sekiro and I was like, this game sucks. I hate this game. It's so hard. Like, what's the point, you know? But being able to have a game that's like, you know what?

[01:04:37] You don't really play video games, but this to me, here's a very specific, and this will kind of wrap up my thoughts on who I recommend this game for as I'm talking about right here is, um, if you are like, if you have a two hour layover in an airplane, an airport, you could play this whole game and have an excellent time just sitting in a chair doing nothing. Like if you, if you got to kill some time doing whatever it is.

[01:05:04] And I come up with the airport scenario specifically because I feel like that's when a lot of people who don't play games will suddenly download games on their phone because they're like, oh man, I'm going to be on this flight or I have this layover or what if I'm waiting, you know, forever? Um, I got to the airport too early or whatever it is. Uh, this is a perfect game, I think, for that too. I love that idea. Yeah. Cause it is, that is a time where people start maybe getting more curious about games when they have to wait at the airport. Yeah.

[01:05:34] Really specific, but I don't know. That seems to be the case. I love it. All righty. Kate, thanks so much for being on here to talk about Sayonara Wild Hearts. Are there any other final thoughts about the game? I don't think so. You want to get out there into the universe. I just want everybody to play it. Um, and if you're anything like me and if the music really resonates with you, you will also have a new favorite album because I probably listen to this album once a week,

[01:06:03] minimum, just like when I'm driving to work or I love listening to it when I'm exercising. So, uh, just recommend that you, you check it out. I think that the music really hits and you could just go listen to the album, but I think you're going to love it even more if you play it, if you experience it first through the game. Awesome. Well, thank you for that. Folks, that has been our episode, our conversation on Sayonara Wild Hearts.

[01:06:30] Um, this is a part of the Indie Impression Series, which, um, is part of the Pre-Water Bonus Podcast. So if you've liked what you've heard, the first thing I'm going to tell you to do is listen to the other Indie Impressions episode where Kate is on and we talk about magical delicacy. Um, if you'd like to hear more, there's a lot of these episodes out there in the public for free. If you want to support what I'm doing here, um, talking about indie games, we do have a Patreon for $3 a month. You get three of these episodes plus a newsletter and that helps me, that helps our show tremendously.

[01:06:59] Um, but I also want to recommend that you follow No Small Games. It's a wonderful, wonderful podcast. Uh, Kate and Emily are wonderful people and they both are great, uh, just folks to follow on social media. So their information will be there. Kate, would you tell us a little bit more about No Small Games? Yes. So No Small Games is an indie game recap and review podcast, but I feel like in the last year it's kind of grown into like, uh, a bigger thing.

[01:07:26] We also have a website, nosmallgames.com, where you can read articles. Um, Emily writes game reviews. Um, I also co-host the show with Emily Merritt. She's amazing. Um, we've been friends for a really long time and we just jumped into our third year of No Small Games. So we're going strong. Um, but yeah, we just, we discover, uh, indie games and we talk about indie games of all kinds of all genres and we do really deep dives on them on No Small Games. And we also do a monthly episodes called Indie Game Roundups, where we talk about indie game

[01:07:56] news and demos, new releases, all of that stuff. And we've had Jacob on the show before, which was such a delight. And I thank you so much for having me on again, Jacob. This is so fun and I love indie impressions. And I also love, uh, your and Cameron's chemistry on the pre-order bonus podcast. So yeah, this has been super great, but yeah, everybody check out No Small Games. We're, we're fun and we, uh, just really love each other and we love to celebrate the artistry of indie games.

[01:08:25] So if you, if you like that, if that sounds like a good vibe, come check us out. Please check them out and give them a listen and everybody, thank you so much for your support. Thank you so much for listening. And until the next episode, take care. Thank you.