33 Immortals

[00:00:09] Ladies and gentlemen, we're back. It's The Pre-Order Bonus Podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Cameron Warren and I'm joined as always by Jacob, the Pixel Professor Price. Question mark? Forgot that for a second.

[00:00:26] It's May 8th, 2025 and Jake, we've had some interesting happenings in the world of video games over the last couple weeks. Since we last, I guess over the last week, really.

[00:00:47] What are your thoughts? I feel like we talked about this on the last episode with Avowed with guest hosts, Matt Fresh from the hard drive. If you didn't get a chance to listen to that one, go listen to that one. But has Xbox thrown in the towel on selling game hardware?

[00:01:09] You know what? I think Xbox is being pretty realistic about what the Xbox Series X and SR at this point. Yeah. The price increases, I mean, folks, it's tariffs. I'm like, am I an expert? No. But I'm still like 90% confident based on reading like from Matt Piscitella on Blue Sky, for example.

[00:01:33] Somebody who's like deep into this kind of analysis and stuff. It's tariffs. Like market conditions, when people say we're changing things because of market conditions right now, it means tariffs. And so I think that like, I think at this point, Xbox is just calling a spade a spade. Hey, this is our hardware. We like it. We think it's cool, but not everybody likes it and not everybody's buying it.

[00:01:55] And sure, we're going to up the price. If anybody out there is still buying an Xbox Series X, you're buying it at this new price because of tariffs. Like, I just don't think it's more complicated than that. So no, you know what I mean? No, I don't think it is. No, you're 100% right. It is tariffs. I think the unfortunate side effect with things like tariffs, as we've seen with COVID, is that once you raise a price, price does not come back down.

[00:02:22] Yep. Unless consumers push back. Okay. And consumers actually pushing back does not mean the internet getting mad. Consumers actually pushing back means we don't buy Xbox. Right. And that, that didn't happen in COVID, right? That didn't happen. Like prices went up and things changed. Everybody still bought stuff. In fact, people bought more stuff. Yeah.

[00:02:49] Then we had fallout post COVID, which is why the video games industry is in the place that it is today where everyone's, you know, super concerned about it because it's not, it's still growing and it's still big, but it's not absolutely on fire every second of the freaking day. So it's a five alarm fire for the games industry. And now with GTA six, not coming out, which is one of the big pieces of news. Yeah.

[00:03:12] GTA six pushed back. And this is timely because I, this is a good, a little bit of a good segue because I want to talk about GTA six, GTA six pushed back a year, which is kind of nuts. But what that does mean is that a lot of other games now we'll get to come out this fall. Here's, here's what I'm predicting. And this is also segueing into our conversation about GTA six.

[00:03:38] I think that ghost of Yote is Sony's last first party, major AAA outing priced at 70 bucks. I think the next one after that is 80 bucks. Definitely would agree with that. I think, listen, Nintendo said Mario cart world is an $80 game. Microsoft was like, you know what? We are an American company getting screwed by tariffs right now. We need to make more money. Our, some of our games are going to be 80 bucks.

[00:04:02] And I actually believe that some of qualifier in there because like South of midnight was 50, right? I think it was about about was 70. We looked at this last week, but I think that, I think that Xbox is like, you know what? We need to put out 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, and $80 games. You know what I mean? I think that means that like the new fable game, perfect dark, $80 games.

[00:04:30] You, those are $80 games, right? Elder Scrolls six, that's an $80 game, right? But I think ghost of Yote is the last major Sony AAA game that comes in at 70 bucks. And I, you know what? I think, I totally believe that if they hadn't announced that price at 70 already, and they were to announce it sometime in June, the price, it would have been 80 bucks.

[00:04:56] Like, I just don't think that Sony is going to be like, oh, you know what? Let's hold out and keep our prices low for our consumers. No, no, no one's holding out now. It's only a matter of time. They're just trying to figure out like the right time to say, dude, unprecedented market conditions. We have to increase the, yeah. So, sorry, that was Mr. PlayStation, just so you guys know. Just mimicking his voice. Mr. John PlayStation.

[00:05:25] Excuse me, that's my parent company. I can't speak poorly about them. Anyways. Yeah, I don't know. I just think that the $80 price tag, I'm sorry it's here. Two out of the three major competitors have done it. It's going to happen with Sony. Sony's already raised the price of PS5s in Europe. Who's to say they're not going to do that here in the US? So, Jake, I figured out GTA 6 pricing. Okay. Okay, let's hear it. Because this goes into this conversation as well.

[00:05:55] GTA 6 will be $100 at retail, but that will include GTA Online. Now, when you say includes GTA Online, I do want you to specify. Does that include like a battle pass? Simply access to? Simply access to GTA Online will be a standalone product that I believe you'll be able to buy GTA Online. Maybe you won't be able to buy it by itself.

[00:06:25] I'm not sure about that. But what I do think, I think that's how they get to the $100 price point though. Because they go, GTA just campaign is 70 or probably 80. It'll be 80, right? Yeah, I think so. With GTA Online is $100. Premium Super Pass is $120. And then like the mega edition with battle pass, skins, you know, whatever bajillion other things they could do.

[00:06:55] $150, right? And that comes with the Jason and Lucia bobblehead. It comes with the Jason and Lucia bobblehead. Because apparently the rumor is that the single player campaign has been done for quite some time. And that all focus now is on getting multiplayer running flawlessly to handle tens of million concurrence right out of the gate. Dude, talk about a nightmare job right now. Nightmare job, dude.

[00:07:26] Anybody working at Rockstar, if you're listening to this, I'm so sorry because you're in hell right now. And you will be for the next year. I mean, good on them. It's the right decision to do. I think punting this to May 26th, 2026, which we have that date. And I think that date is locked, right? I think they're like, all right, folks. I think it's got to be. Yeah. I think it's locked at this point, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, that's about a year.

[00:07:56] That's a year to kind of do all this polish and stuff. You really want it to happen. And I think you can. That's a year to get your game out if you're a studio. That's a year. You've got a year now. Yep. You've got a nice year to get a game out, right? If you've got a game that you're kind of sitting on and trying to figure stuff out. I think the fall landscape just changed. I think Jeff Keighley just got a whole bunch of emails. It's like, hey, you know that trailer that we were holding back on? Put it in the show. Yeah.

[00:08:26] Speaking of which, Jake, we are like a month away from Summer Games Fest. Dude, I'm excited because GTA was postponed or delayed. Yes. A hundred percent. I think that opens up the floodgates, I think, for a lot of titles that were targeting this fall space, but knew that GTA 6 was going to be a nuke. And let me tell you, can I just say something about GTA 6? I am not a GTA player.

[00:08:56] I never played GTA 5. I think the GTA I put the most time into was probably like GTA 3 when I was in middle school. Yeah, same. San Andreas or Vice City was the one. I couldn't remember. Yeah, totally. I played San Andreas, you know, whatever, right? But dude, this game legitimately, and I know this has been said on many podcasts and all over the internet,

[00:09:24] and there was never any doubt that this game is going to be the highest selling game ever made by a country mile. But watching that new trailer that just put out, I don't know if you had a chance to watch it. Yeah, I watched it. Did you watch it? Yeah, yeah. Did you watch it? Dude, it's kind of nuts. Like, it truly is like pretty nuts. I mean, obviously, this isn't gameplay, right? Like, we don't know what the gameplay systems are or whatever.

[00:09:49] But all that aside, just the amount of kind of detail and contextualization of like Florida and like this world they've kind of created and all the stuff they put together and how high fidelity it is and how pop culturally relevant it is and all this stuff. And then they have these two like super good looking people that you get to play. Yeah.

[00:10:15] Like this game just seems like a commercial, like you could not make something more commercially consumable than this thing. Like it ticks every single box that you could possibly put together that's like, how do you make a video game that sells a bajidillion copies? Yeah. And this is, I mean, it is. I mean, it is. It's funny because you're totally right. Right.

[00:10:42] And this description I'm about to give it is going to sound really rude and mean. But GTA 6 looks like what happens to people that go to Florida for spring break and then never leave. But here's the thing. The game. I think for most people, that's what they want. No, yeah. They want to go to Miami and never go home. No, and you want to go to Miami on vacation and never go home, right? Yeah, exactly. Yep, yep.

[00:11:09] So it sounds negative and it sounds mean and it sounds rude. And I apologize for that. I only mean that like 20% of that. But you're right. That's what people want out of a GTA. I think what they showed there, you're spot on, dude. They showed exactly what people want to see out of a GTA 6. Listen, Rockstar got Red Dead Redemption 2 to look and play as good as it did on the Xbox One and PS4.

[00:11:36] And so this is a team that knows their production value, that knows their skill set. This game, because I saw a bunch of people say, well, was that all just cut scenes from the trailer? And they said it's 50% gameplay, 50% cut scenes. And I'm like, folks, I think... I couldn't tell the difference. I couldn't tell the difference. And I think we believe them. This is a team that can do that. This is a studio that can do that. And so, yeah, same thing. I'm not like super interested in the GTA formula.

[00:12:06] I haven't been for a really long time. But dang, dude, that game looks incredible. Like the production value is through the roof. Does it blow my socks off from like, oh, man, I can't wait to play this? No. But does it blow my socks off from the standpoint of like, man, these guys know what they are doing. Like they know exactly what they're doing. And there's a reason this game is taking a decade to put together. Yep.

[00:12:35] You can see that. I feel like you can see how this took a decade. Yes. Like visually. And it's doing everything that any person who has any, even the slightest interest in the GTA, it's doing all of it. Yeah. It's just doing all of it. But I admit, I'm even kind of intrigued with what they're going to do with the story. Right? Like the dual protagonists set up. Yeah. Like, I don't think I'm going to play it. I just, I don't think I'm going to play it. Dude. For various reasons.

[00:13:05] But I'll tell you one thing, though. If you release a game that's not GTA 6 in June, you're nuts. The only thing, and someone in our Discord posted this. This was Rouge that posted this in our Discord. Devolver Digital came out that same day and said, we're releasing a game on May 26, 2026. And I think they're the only exception. Nobody else in their right mind can release a game on that day or in June.

[00:13:35] And yeah, I get that like the indie and the GTA player, like Venn diagram. You know, it's not a circle, right? But even still, do keep June open. For folks like me and Cameron, we will be catching up on the backlog. For everybody else in the world, you'll be playing GTA 6. Could they get me to play GTA 6? They probably could. They probably could.

[00:14:02] I mean, I really liked Red Dead Redemption, but I think they would have to do something interesting with. If it's just the simulation with kind of the same third person janky shooting and like starting a record label and like a dance club. Yeah. Like, I'm out, right?

[00:14:31] Maybe they'll do something more interesting with the gameplay. I don't know. You know, it's... Yeah. That being said, it's got the juice. I mean, I'm not going to lie to you guys. It's got the juice. So, but you know what else has the juice? And I feel extremely vindicated because I've been in a... Let's call it a negative Nancy on this topic for many years now. Okay?

[00:15:00] I've said some things about the beloved... Beloved? Concerned ape, Eric Baran. I did not think you were going to go here. I was like, he's not going to make this about... He's not going to make this about Haunted Chocolatier. Eric Baran, right? So, what did I say? Jake, what have I been saying to the members of our podcast and to you about Haunted Chocolatier? That's never coming out. Okay?

[00:15:28] And I quote Cameron Warren from 2018 onward every year, perhaps every episode, maybe. Haunted Chocolatier is never coming out. So, lo and behold, Eric Baran, for a random reason, showed up in a PC Gamer interview that got posted this last week and weirdly on a podcast for... I can't remember the name of the comedian. He's this Asian guy. He's pretty funny. He's pretty funny, but he has a podcast. I can't remember which one.

[00:15:58] Randomly went on that podcast too. Okay? This is the first time I've seen this dude's face in public. Ever? Some... Ever. Is this the first time he's made the media rounds for some reason, Jake? I feel like he hasn't done that. He did Rolling Stone, I remember, a million years ago. But it's been a hot minute, I feel like, since he's done media. But he hasn't been on YouTube, right? Like, sitting there. Right. Anyway. Yeah. He basically goes...

[00:16:24] He's like, look, if all I did was work on Haunted Chocolatier, which he's not because he's insane. If all I did was work on Haunted Chocolatier, it would take me at least two more years to finish it. Here's... And I quote, there is a lot of work to do. So, this game... And then in the other podcast, he was basically like... He think...

[00:16:51] He essentially pretty much said he hopes it'll come out before 2030. No. So, I just want everybody to know out there to know that I was 100% right. And anybody who ever thought this game was going to come out, I apologize to you, but it's never coming out. He said that about 2030? That's hilarious, dude. But here's the crazy thing. The crazy thing is that he is in a position to take all the time that he wants to do whatever he wants. Absolutely, he is.

[00:17:20] Absolutely, he is. So, I think... I have nothing against Eric Brown, personally. I just want to make that clear. Yeah. I just... Yeah. It's one of those things where it's like, I think pretty much... Maybe not every single video game developer... I mean, every single video game developer wishes that they had the financial security for the next project that Concerned Ape has for Haunted Chocolatier, right? That game could bomb. It could be the worst game ever to release. It could be worse than Gollum, which Cameron and I will be streaming together on May 17th. Please add that to your calendars.

[00:17:50] Heard it here first. Heard it here first. It could be so terrible, but the man's okay. You know what I mean? And that's incredible. Oh, he's set for life. He could do whatever he wants. He could never touch a video game. Yeah, but... Like, yeah. I'm just saying, like, it's wild to think that somebody can be in that kind of position right now in the video games industry. Because CEOs of AAA studios aren't even in that position. In the sense of, like, about their products. Don't get me wrong. The CEOs are sitting high and mighty on their giant piles of gold.

[00:18:20] And they don't have any cares in the world. But in terms of their products, right? They... Not even they have that luxury, right? Right? So, I don't know. A part of me is like, dude, good for you. But also, when I saw the rounds of that news, I was like, you know what? I'm actually just removing Haunted Chocolate Tier from my heart and brain. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Until it shows up on a store page with a price tag.

[00:18:46] I think what I'm upset about is why he'd even decided to show that game ever. I mean, he showed it... Dude, he showed it two years ago. It was... Wait, two years already? Ha ha ha. Wasn't it? I think you're right, man. It maybe was even... Why would he even show that? I... Like, why? I think at some point, he thought it would come out before... I don't know.

[00:19:13] And then he decided to work on Stardew Valley 1.6. Wait, what... But even if he did... Sorry. He would still have another year of development. Year and a half at minimum. Even if... Am I wrong? Yeah, but hold on. I need to get my... I'm on the Wikipedias and I had to fix something here. Okay, okay, okay. Jake's looking that up. He announced a game with a gameplay trailer in October 2021 and launched a promotional website.

[00:19:44] He is simultaneously collaborating on another unannounced game. Dude, 2021. Bro, that was... That's four years... That's... Is that real? That's four years ago, dude. October 3rd, 2023. Barone uploaded several images of Haunted Chocolatier to Twitter in honor of reaching 1 million followers on the platform. Oh my gosh. In December 2024, he stated the development of the game was still ongoing, though it had been paused in 2024 as he worked on a major Stardew Valley update.

[00:20:13] Dude, that is insane. Was it really 2021? 2021. I think the problem that a person like Eric Barone has, and I totally get this, okay? I think the issue is that he's such a perfectionist. He doesn't care about the money at all. He only cares about creating, like, the perfect product. And Haunted Chocolatier has to be better than Stardew Valley. And I think he said that in one of the interviews. He's like, this game has to be better than Stardew Valley.

[00:20:45] And so he's like... I think the pressure on himself is like... He's just going to give himself as much time as physically possible to make, you know, some sort of ridiculous game. So, anyway, folks, put it out of your hearts and minds. Don't speak of it again. Don't even mention it. I don't even want to hear it spoken. If I see it on Fantasy Critic next year, I will burn that site to the ground. Okay?

[00:21:14] I will burn it to the ground as God is my witness. That and Silk Song. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Hold on now. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay, all right. What? What if Silk Song came out this year, though? There's like a 10% chance. I'm actually... Which is more hopeful than it have been. So, it's going to be playable in a museum in New Zealand in September. Yeah, which...

[00:21:46] Which... I can't even come up with a response to that. But like... What does that even mean? What are we doing? Gamers don't go to museums. What are we doing? We don't know what that means. Oh, sorry. At an Australian museum. Okay. Sorry. Because they're an Australian studio. But dude, what do we... I don't... Like, dude, just release a trailer. Do something. Like, what are you doing?

[00:22:10] They're working on how to fix the pacing between hours 70 and 85 of the main campaign. Jake, do we see any Silk Song at Summer Games Fest? Don't ask me that. Yeah, I've... Dude, I've given up on Silk Song appearing in showcases. Because with the Nintendo Switch 2, it got, what? Three seconds and a sizzle reel? The least committed...

[00:22:38] The least committed way to show anything about that game. And it was like... It was like... What's her name? I've even forgotten. Hornet. From Hollow Knight. Jumping and slashing her blade. And that was it, right? I mean, has anyone stopped to ask themselves if this game... What if this game was just bad? You know what I mean? What if that's what they're asking themselves? That's why it's taking so long. You know what? Okay.

[00:23:08] Since we're on this, and then we're in the minute 23 of our recording here... Yeah, sorry. There was a lot of news, admittedly. There was a lot of news. Cameron, you know what my favorite game is. It's Cuphead. What is Studio MDHR doing? They're still a company. They're still around.

[00:23:35] We don't even know what they're working on. As far as I know... Three days ago. Three days ago, Studio Behind Cuphead is recruiting for its next game. Oh, that doesn't inspire a lot of us. I mean, they have been doing some amazingly bonkers things. Like... When did the Cuphead... When did the Delicious Last Course come out? Last year? Or two years ago? Two years ago, I think. Okay. Okay.

[00:24:06] So... The thing I do understand is that their style of animation takes a long time to do anything. So... I imagine that we're still at least two years out before we hear any inkling of what this team is working on. Yeah. It's just wild because they have been... They have the Cuphead show on Netflix.

[00:24:35] Before Elon Musk went, you know, the way that he is currently going, they made a deal with Tesla to get Cuphead pre-installed on a bunch of Teslas. Which... Why do you have a video game in a dashboard in a car? Did anybody stop to think that that might be dangerous or distracting while on the road? Um, but... Hey, they're self-driving, right? That's right. So why not play a game that's going to suck all of my attention from the road? Because Cuphead is that type of a game because it's so freaking difficult, right?

[00:25:05] I don't know. Okay. Any other studios that we have no idea what they're doing that have just been hanging out for a while? Other than whatever that Kevin Levine studio is. You think Judas comes out this year? No, it's... Wait, it's... I mean, he sent a bunch of people to go play the game, so... Wait, really? I don't think it's... I think that's probably next year, though. I don't think that's this year. I don't think it's ready. Ken Levine. Levine.

[00:25:34] Sorry, I mixed up his name with Kevin Devine, the musician. Ken Levine is an interesting person. Actually, he's a... He is a very interesting person. I don't know if you've read anything about Ken Levine, but he's... He is a... Is interesting code for something else? He is... He's... He's a... He's definitely a visionary, but... Kind of comes with some baggage. Anyway. Um... I think that's it.

[00:26:02] Do we miss any big news that we wanted to talk about, Jake? Oh, the last thing that I wanted to mention... Okay. Cameron and I were talking about this, and maybe... Maybe this is a good special topic for the future, but... Cameron sent me a message, I think it was today or yesterday, saying that... Elden Ring Night Reign has all the makings to be a smash hit live service game. And I've been thinking about that a lot, and I think it's super possible, right? Because of kind of the loop that it presents.

[00:26:27] But I also just wouldn't be surprised if FromSoftware put this out, and they're like... Okay, we're never touching this ever again. But... But... I don't know. I think what we're seeing with Elden Ring Night Reign and then Duskbloods, right? Is that... They're in... They're in a weird creative phase. And what if they're like... Hey, Elden Ring Night Reign works really well. What if we just... Just decided to give this yearly expansions for the next three years? And... You know?

[00:26:58] I think it could happen. And so I've been thinking about that. I... I think you're right, Cameron. I think there's something there. Yeah, I mean, they... They probably don't have the infrastructure to do that. So there could just be some things there where it's like... Well, we don't want to take a whole bunch of our team and dedicate them to working on live service elements. But I don't think it'll be like that, right? I think it'll be more along the lines of... Just a game... So I said live game to you.

[00:27:29] I... I think that could be a combination of two things. I think it could be... We came up with the term for this and I forgot what it is. But... I think it could be a No Man's Sky situation. Okay, yeah. Where they put the game out. It just is... It costs what it costs. It's a $70 game, right? No. Elden Ring Night Reign? $40? Oh, it's a $40 game. Yeah. Oh. Interesting.

[00:27:59] Okay. So I think it could be a No Man's Sky situation in the sense that like... Because of the structure... And I watched that 10-minute trailer. And by the way, that 10-minute trailer is freaking dope. And I was like, man... I'm kind of... I'm like into this. They're selling me on this game. Yeah. Like, I just... So... Yeah. Just the structure. How they can kind of change and morph the world. And how they can add new elements to it.

[00:28:29] Because of how they've put it together. And then how they can add new bosses. They can add new classes. They have skin. They literally have skins for the hero characters in the game. So they have all the stuff. All the juice. All the meat is on the bone there for them to go... Hey, we're releasing, you know... I don't know. A bunch of skins in the Capcom store. Right? Right? Like, I could see it. You know what I mean? And that probably will piss some people off.

[00:28:59] But, you know, I think FromSoft is also smart enough to do it right. And I think if they did do anything like that, they would do it right. Yeah. But you brought up a good point, Jake. The fact that it doesn't have cross-play, I think is just... Man, that sucks so bad. It's a... Because I... Dude. That just seems like such a miss in 2025. That seems like such an obvious thing for a multiplayer-focused cooperative game like this. I'm wondering if it's coming later. I don't...

[00:29:26] I almost kind of feel like FromSoft is just kind of flying by the seat of their pants right now. And if Elden Ring is like this... Or Elden Ring Night Reign is a smash hit, they're like, Okay. I guess we should hire people to do cross-play. And it'll come like seven and a half months later. And it's like a week out. They're like, Oh, cross-play is coming next week. You know, here's what you can expect. I just feel like that's why... It's funny. That's why it might be successful like a No Man's Sky cadence of releases.

[00:29:54] Because it very much feels like that Elden Ring Night Reign was an experiment, but also a learning opportunity for devs to really home in on a multiplayer experience. And to kind of figure out what that kind of balance looks like in, you know, the FromSoft sort of design philosophy. And so it just feels like to me that like... They're like, Hey, this works and it's really fun. And let's just put it out there and see what happens.

[00:30:24] Because they're one of the rare, you know, companies right now that has that position to do that financially. And because it's kind of... It feels lower stakes. I almost feel like that's allowing them to do it better. Because they're not like entirely... Like it's not like the entire company will sink if Night Reign tanks, right? And so again, talking about positions of luxury maybe to be in in game developing in 2025.

[00:30:53] I just wonder if this game is just like, dude, this thing could totally bomb. And FromSoft will be able to just pick up and move on. Yeah, Night Reign very much feels like a game that was like... Miyazaki has some acolyte on his team that he's, you know, has risen up through the ranks as they've developed these games over the years. This person probably looked around and was like,

[00:31:17] man, we have literally thousands of hours of assets just sitting here that we could do something really interesting with. We just made a game that everyone loves, Elden Ring. What if we did a roguelike cooperative game, right? And he's like, I like those types of games. And that's probably how this game came together. Well, what we do know is that it was the combat lead director who I think... Oh, okay. Okay. Now this is where it's a little fuzzy. I think he pitched the idea. And I think Miyazaki was like,

[00:31:47] oh, what if we did something kind of inspired by Escape from Tarkov? Like this sort of PvPVE, PvE, like... No, sorry. I'm thinking of Duskbloods. I'm getting my games mixed up. That's Duskbloods though, right? That's Duskbloods. I'm sorry. I'm getting these two mixed up. Elden Ring Night Reign... But similar thing, I think. Yeah. Similar thing. But I'm pretty sure Elden Ring Night Reign was pitched from... Exactly as you're saying. I think it was the combat director was like, hey, what if we just like... And I wonder if he just saw all these bosses on the cutting room floor.

[00:32:14] And I was like, dude, what if we just made a roguelike with all these bosses? And then we add in a bunch of bosses that people love from previous games. Boss rush mode. Yeah. With a light structure to it. Yeah. No, dude, if you watch that 10-minute video, it actually has a lot more depth than I thought it did. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that. But it's got like dynamic world events and like secrets. And, you know, it's got... The classes seem cool.

[00:32:41] I actually really like the idea of classes because I always get anxious in FromSoft games, like trying to pick the right build. Yeah. And the fact that it's just like, oh, yeah, here's this class that does this thing. It's like, oh, that's actually kind of nice. Because it's funny when you start playing a FromSoft game, you're like, oh, what class should I pick? But within two hours, none of it matters. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a statistical nightmare. Yeah. No, I'm excited for this.

[00:33:09] I'm disappointed that I have to get it on Xbox because I think that playing multiplayer games on consoles sucks and my equipment is not set up for that. That's probably my own fault. But I'm excited to play it. Yeah. Speaking of multiplayer cooperative games, the topic of today's episode, which we will finally get to now, is 33 Immortals. This is a Game Pass title released the last couple months.

[00:33:40] Jake and I have been playing this with a couple of friends. Not a ton of it, but enough of it that we wanted to come on the show and break it down for you guys. Jake, how are we going to break this one down? We will be talking about 33 Immortals in our three signature categories. The first one will be the narrative. 33 Immortals is light on narrative, but pretty heavy on reference because it's drawn from the Divine Comedy.

[00:34:05] So we'll talk about that briefly, but it'll be a pretty short segment, I think, as we're talking about 33 Immortals tonight. Next, we'll be talking about the game design. I mean, this is really the meat and potatoes of what is happening in 33 Immortals. We'll be talking about these combat mechanics and kind of what it's like to play with 33 players simultaneously. I think there's a lot of really cool game design that went into this pretty unusual structure for a game. And then finally, impact on the industry.

[00:34:35] If you are a long-time listener of the show, you know that Cameron and I, we see a lot more pros than cons when it comes to games in early access. 33 Immortals is currently available in early access. And it's on Game Pass, and we're going to be talking a lot about industry, just kind of multiplayer, like how multiplayer maybe gets handled and maybe where it's gotten stale and where something like 33 Immortals could inspire more creative multiplayer games.

[00:35:07] 33 Immortals. This is a game inspired by, and I had to look this up because I wasn't sure, but I confirm, inspired by, I'll just read this quote. This is from, weirdly, an article on the Epic Game Store. 33 Immortals is an exploration of Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, a work credited with both defining the Christian worldview of the afterlife

[00:35:34] and solidifying the modern Italian language through its three-book exploration of hell, purgatory, and heaven. 33 Immortals players team up with 32 others as they fight their way through the afterlife in an attempt to change their fate, face down the wrath of God, and almost certainly die repeatedly. That's a pretty good summary there. Yeah, I did not know that about Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy. I guess that explains why there's... Is it actually 33 players in a given match, Jake? Let's see.

[00:36:02] There are three world tiers in the Inferno world tier, which is the bottom ranked one. There are 33 players. And then it goes 22. In the bottom rank. Yeah. Yeah, so basically you are a lost... soul who is making their way through the underworld. Yeah. For lack of a better term.

[00:36:28] And you're doing so in a roguelite cooperative structure that mimics the MMO raid experience, right? It kind of distills down like an MMO raid into these little mini like 20-minute sessions. Yeah. With this kind of concept fit over the top. Mm-hmm. And that's pretty much it, like story-wise. There's not a lot of meat on the bone.

[00:36:55] There's some like characters that are sort of these Greek mythological afterlife people who don't do much other than really give you stat boosts and upgrades. Yeah. This isn't like a Haiti situation where, you know, you're discovering and, you know, building relationships with people. It's nothing like that. It's literally just sort of a... It's just a skin, really. At least that's what I found. And this game... Just important to know, this game is still in game preview.

[00:37:21] So there could be a lot more on the narrative side of things. Yeah. But that's pretty much it. Yeah. I mean... From a narrative standpoint. It is. It's... I like using the Divine Comedy that, folks, if you're not familiar with the Divine Comedy, this is considered like one of the greatest pieces of world literature. Like every single world literature class is going to have probably... Have you read the Divine Comedy? I've read Inferno. You have. Okay.

[00:37:51] Inferno is by and large considered to be the best of the three, ironically enough. Right? Okay. I actually remember I took a medieval lit class because, of course, I did when I was a freshman at college. Of course you did. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And we read Inferno. Sounds interesting. It was a fantastic class, actually. The professor was actually the quintessential snotty... You know when like American intellectuals speak when it sounds like they're speaking with an accent because they're trying to sound really hoity-toity?

[00:38:22] Like this guy talked like that. Like this guy was that man. Right? Like... Okay. Okay. Tweed jacket. I mean, if he's a medieval lit professor, it's almost like a hall pass to do that. Right? You actually can't get tenure unless you talk like that. Right? Yeah. It's a requirement. Tweed jacket, elbow pads, bow tie, mustache, glasses, gray hair, only slightly balding as he's entering his 60s. You know the man. You've seen the man. Walk into his office.

[00:38:51] He has literally books are like falling onto his chair and he like can't move around because he's just surrounded by them. Yeah. So, this was the guy that... Yeah, I know this person. This man taught my medieval lit class. I mean, it was so funny because we bought this double language edition. There was one in the original kind of like Italian Vulgate, which essentially... Sorry, guys. I'm getting super nerdy here.

[00:39:17] But essentially, as Latin is kind of giving birth to all these different romance languages, there's these Vulgate languages, which were kind of like the spoken kind of bastardized version of Latin. And that's how you get Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian. So, kind of interesting. That's how you get a bunch of those languages.

[00:39:36] And so, anyway, it has the original language in there, which is why the Epic Store quote was so good because it talks about the popularization of Italian because Dante used what was kind of considered a semi-heretical language for this poem. Anyway, we have this double language. We have the original and then we have it in English. And we're studying it in English, obviously. And then this guy one day, he's like, it's such a shame because you guys are reading the absolute worst version of this poem.

[00:40:04] And then he starts reading the Italian side like beautifully where it has the meter and the rhyme retained and all the... Because it's a poem, right? And he's like, see how that sounds so much better? It's a shame you don't understand any of it. And then he just like carried on with his lecture, dude. Oh, my gosh. Anyway, we're coming back to 33 Immortals. I think this is a really cool setting for a game.

[00:40:27] Part of what makes the Divine Comedy so cool is because it's this kind of guided tour of hell, purgatory, and heaven. And that's not in the game at all. Like you said, the NPCs are really just... They're the main characters that kind of show up to guide Dante through these three places. But there's really no story delivery in there. It's not even exactly explained.

[00:40:55] I feel like all that clearly why you as a lost soul want to kill like Satan and then eventually kill God, right? Because the game kind of presents it as like you deliver some type of injustice. Anyway, the game doesn't have to give this beautiful rendition of the original Divine Comedy. But I think it would have been nice to have a little more structure to the narrative. But like Cameron says, this game's in game preview. It's in early access.

[00:41:25] That might come. And I really hope it does as a literature nerd. But I also think by and large, most people don't actually give a hoot. They just want to talk to the NPCs and get their stuff and move on. So this is me nitpicking for a very specific demographic of gamers who are going to play 33 Immortals. But I think the reality of the situation is that it's fine the way that it is because the game is much less about the narrative.

[00:41:54] Like you said, this isn't a Hades situation. And I don't think it's trying to be Hades either. I think it's just taking a well-known, very cool setting and saying, hey, this kind of helps with the game design goals that we have. Let's use it. Right. Which I think is fine. Yeah, 100%. And those game design ideas, I mean, I think you've seen them before. I do think it's interesting, right?

[00:42:20] The idea of taking the MMO raid experience and kind of handing it out. And letting people experience because the MMO raid and even in Destiny, right? I think Destiny tried to do some things to open up the raid, the idea of going on a raid to the broader audience.

[00:42:42] But I don't think there's really been any game that successfully given every single player the equal opportunity to go on a raid experience and actually feel what that feels like. I feel like that was – and that's part of what makes raids interesting and special and so – what's the word for it?

[00:43:08] Like almost mythological in how people talk about them and speak in such hushed reverence tones about these amazing raids, right? Even in our friendship circle, right? One of our – probably the most seminal gaming experience we've had, right, is when we beat the King's Fall raid in Destiny 1. I don't think anything is going to come close to that, right?

[00:43:33] Just the amount of effort and time and like staying up until 4 o'clock in the morning like multiple nights and finally beating that thing and like having to have so much coordination. I don't know if that – I don't know if 33 Immortals achieves that. I don't think you can achieve that because that has to happen organically. I don't think you can manufacture it, right? I think at some of the higher levels, I think it probably gets a little better.

[00:44:01] But yeah, I mean basically you get dropped into a world. You go and you can talk to these NPCs who give you the ability to upgrade your weapons, change your class, complete quests, which give you currency that you can use to buy certain things in the game. And you get dropped into this world map. In the world map, you go around. You're fighting enemies. But your main goal – and I'm trying to remember the name of these things.

[00:44:28] But basically, you get dropped in and – Jake, what are they called? Like the little mini dungeons that you go in? Torture chambers maybe? Torture chambers, yeah. Like you're trying to essentially – correct me if I'm saying this right. Like you're trying to essentially like level up your guy a little bit before you go into the final boss encounter? Yeah, essentially.

[00:44:54] Which basically, it's kind of an accelerated grind before the final encounter, which is the main attraction, which is this ginormous world boss. And the one in like the first tier is you're literally fighting Satan. So that's kind of cool. I mean that's like the ultimate boss, right? It is really cool. Honestly, I really like this game design actually quite a lot. I find it to be super creative, really unique.

[00:45:23] And I love – so you do – there really are 33 people in there. And I just think it's so clever how I think like four to six of these torture chambers will like open up at some given point. Like there's some sort of world event disaster that triggers. They open them up and then you can have up to six people in there at a time. And so you look at your map real quick and then you just kind of rush to the nearest one.

[00:45:51] You hope you get at least four people in there and then you take it out. And I just think this game does an absolutely incredible job of funneling players into cooperative scenarios. But at the same time, it understands that you have to kind of work by your like least common denominator of skill in order to get through some of these co-op encounters. And so at the very end of the day, as long as everybody is kind of hacking and slashing and using their abilities, like you will progress.

[00:46:21] If everybody kills enemies and nobody dies, you'll make it through. But then there's these cool little bonuses where like each weapon class, because classes are designed by like what weapon that you pick up in main. They come with a co-op ability. And so you can trigger it and then other people need to rush and kind of stand on different nodes that show up on the map. And if everybody does that in time, then you unleash a cool attack or you get some sort of buff or something happens here.

[00:46:48] And I just think it's like really brilliant how they were able to be like, OK, we have to assume everybody in here is an idiot. So let's just make this as simple as possible. But let's give huge reward and immense satisfaction when people do figure out how to coordinate more more complicated things in the game. So my hat's off to that like core design principle. Yeah, I. I appreciate what they're going for. I think it for me, at least a false.

[00:47:16] I think I think I just I think I just am not don't find the number going up and the gear getting better. I just don't it does. It doesn't do anything for me like. Yeah, I it's a tried and true game design that works for millions and billions of people. Yes. So like I am definitely in the minority on this 100 percent.

[00:47:45] I fully admit I am in the minority on this. So if I come across overly negative on this game, it's not my intention. I think there's a lot of incredible things, especially the art, like the art direction. This thing is off the charts. I just they just did such a good everything pops and looks so good. And they've got this illustrated art style and they somehow make it work with the combat. And so they have this combination of like ability and lighting effects popping off on the screen. But then I also have this like illustrated aesthetic to it. It's very impressive to look at.

[00:48:16] That being said, I just not interested in watch number go up video game. I can't. I need something. I need something else. I need some kind of story, some kind of like narrative hook, some kind of thing to pull me through a mystery. Right. Some sense of discovery. This game doesn't really have again in its early access form. It doesn't really have any of that. I imagine it probably will because of the source material that it's based on.

[00:48:46] Yeah. My guess is that that's going to be a big part of this game once it's actually in 1.0. But at this point, I mean, it is being treated as kind of like the game is out. Right. The game is pretty much out. So if it's got to be able to hold on to people long enough to get to that 1.0 and kind of give people that extra juice to the to the game. But for me, I want a little bit more.

[00:49:14] I think the combat is pretty well done. But again, it just it wasn't enough to keep me around. Yeah, I think I guess my criticism similarly. I think part of it isn't due is due to the fact that it's still in early access. But I would love a little more like Diablo style character classes. Just like a like there's sure there's a core variety between all the weapon classes.

[00:49:40] But it'd be nice to be able to do more than like I feel like two or three main attacks in any given scenario. And really kind of sharpen the divisions between the different play styles a little more. I don't know. I think I mostly played Inferno. They have the two tiers locked Inferno and Purgatory. They don't have the heaven tier locked yet or unlocked yet.

[00:50:07] And I got to say, like, it is very cool when you get 30 or so players that populate in to see that final boss to fight Satan. Like that is really cool. It is really cool to see that type of boss rush experience and to see how people kind of deal with the different scenarios. And so I do think the design there is super solid. But yeah, I think I think I'm kind of with you. At one point, I was like, oh, man, I'm looking at like all the different tasks that I have to do.

[00:50:37] And I was like, dude, this is this is a bit of a grind to get. It's a lot. To really get things going. Like you can get out of Inferno and into Purgatory like I think fairly quickly. But dude, going from Purgatory to the top tier, I think is going to be a huge, huge grind. And like we mentioned before, you go from 33 to 22 to 11 players.

[00:51:00] I think that's smart design because you're going to get less and less hardcore players that are willing to do that top tier. So instead of like punishing your hardcore players for waiting for an entire 33, you know, person lobby to populate. Yeah. Make that smaller. You know, like I think that makes a whole lot of sense. But yeah, I don't know. I think that this game kind of in its current form, if not much changes before 1.0 releases.

[00:51:26] It's like, hey, this game would be a ton of fun to play for like 10 or so hours with with a few buds in the bottom tier and trying the next tier. But the rest of the game is safe for the hardcore players. Jake, let's talk about impact on the industry for 33 Immortals. Where does a game like this fit?

[00:51:54] I think obviously great Game Pass pick. I think it gives Game Pass. It previewed super nicely at Summer Games Pass last year. Or whenever they had that. You know, I think it has a really interesting hook in the idea of like a 33 person co-op. It doesn't exactly fulfill on that hook because the co-op is actually four players. It's just 33 players in the lobby. So it was a little bit deceptive in that way.

[00:52:22] Yeah, I think it would have been cool to have massive. Like imagine you imagine the pitch to your friends. If you have 10 friends and they all game, right? Be like, dude, we could all get on and we can all play this one random game. And it's easy to hop in, you know? Yeah. And that's kind of the hook that got all of our friends to jump in. And then we get on and realize, oh, it's only three players together. Yeah.

[00:52:50] So not quite like it's a really good marketing pitch, but not actually in the game. If it had been in the game, I think maybe it's a little bit of a different conversation because then that gives something like pretty unique. Now, maybe they tested that out and it doesn't work logistically or technically from a technical standpoint. I'm guessing that's probably part of it. But yeah, I mean, a game like this, this is a pretty small game. Seems like the studio is like relatively small.

[00:53:18] It's definitely a very interesting concept. It'd be interesting to see if like a little tiny studio like this with this, you know, pretty niche but interesting concept can pull off like a roguelite sort of light service-y type situation, right? It's almost like a mini live service title in a way. Um, we need, you know, I personally didn't love it, but I love the concept of it.

[00:53:44] And I think it's games like these that will quote unquote save the industry, quote unquote, right? It's games like these that pretty small, but do things that a lot of people like and do them in an interesting way with an interesting hook.

[00:54:00] And so then it allows these teams on a small-ish budget to make something that can become really financially viable and have a pretty solid player base. The fact like these are the types of games that will keep the train of the games industry moving right in the direction that we, I think we should want it to go.

[00:54:25] So, yeah, I, I hope that we see a lot more unique and wild ideas like this game come to fruition and that people get interested in them and they play them because it's, it's a really cool concept. Man, it blows my mind. Did you know, Cameron, this is a studio that made Spiritfarer? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a massive departure. That is, yeah. In tone and game design. That game is also about death, interestingly enough.

[00:54:54] Also about death. But pretty wild risk. And I would say just a huge departure from the games that they had done previously. Although it seems like I haven't played their other two games, but I have seen them Sundered and Jotun. I know a few people who really like Jotun. But those games are really highly spoken of. But yeah, what a, it's a cool concept. And honestly, it has a really solid foundation.

[00:55:22] You just got to hope you get the players. And this is something that I think maybe I'm going to be a little more pessimistic here is, man, how do you convince somebody who mostly plays Minecraft or Fortnite or Call of Duty or FIFA to play 33 Immortals? I don't know how you get them to do it. Even if they might really like the experience. Because it's different and it's fun. But it's a different type of game. Like, it is.

[00:55:52] I think the quote from the developers that it's a pickup and raid style of game. Like, hey, let's get into this raid. And like Cameron, you mentioned earlier. Talking about raids. I love the way that you phrased it. What was it? We talk about it almost like in a specific mythological sense. I think raids are some of the coolest thing that gaming has to offer. Like, period. Full stop. But they also tend to be extremely unapproachable.

[00:56:19] And so I think that I love the idea of this game. It's like, hey, let's try to make like an approachable raid-like experience. Which I don't think I've seen before. Like, you mentioned Destiny. And I think Destiny, yeah, it does that compared to WoW. But it's only a few notches down. I think if you look at the... If you zoom out and you look at gamers broadly, right? Like, a Destiny raid and some of the raids in particular require quite a lot of coordination and timing.

[00:56:48] And you have to really be paying attention to what's going on. And pausing and getting into your menu might mean that the full team wipes and you have to redo an encounter. And so I think it's cool that 33 Immortals exist. But... And I always say this. Like, I feel like when we have conversations about unique games, it's how you get the player base to sustain them. And I still don't know. Yeah. I think you hit on something now interesting there.

[00:57:12] I think there's a tendency to take too much friction out of the experiences that we treasure so much to try and create more streamlined ideas, right? That appeal to more people. But the problem is that it is that friction in and of itself that gets people interested in that thing and makes it feel so fulfilling. Right.

[00:57:37] And so a game like 33 Immortals, it's like, really, that's a noble goal to try and recreate kind of the MMO experience. The problem is, like, you can't really do it. It almost would be like... It feels like they need... And maybe this is in the game and I just am misunderstanding it. Or maybe it's going to be, again, it's... Again, this is an early access.

[00:58:01] It's like, I don't know, secret thing or endgame thing that is this cool, interesting thing that you can only access and that requires a ton of coordination and that has a lot of friction behind it. And it has a lot of interesting pieces to it to get people to feel like, oh, there's this pretty challenging thing that I want to be able to get to and I want to achieve. And not very many other people are going to be able to do that.

[00:58:30] And it's designed that way. It's almost like a... What's the word for it, Jake? It's like a... Is it a catch-22? Yeah. You have to make it less accessible to make it more accessible. In some ways. If you make a game too frictionless, it loses all the satisfaction. I'm not saying that that's what's happening here with 33 Immortals. It just makes me lean towards that and think about that, right?

[00:58:59] If that's like the kind of core. Anyway. Again, it's a noble goal. I think it's pretty tough because it's one of those things that the satisfaction and kind of the MMO experience comes from. That friction that is hard and is frustrating and annoying, but it's part of what makes it satisfying. Yeah. And interesting. I agree. And the third tier isn't unlocked.

[00:59:23] And I think this is where Cameron and I may be holding out hope where like if that's going to be where the hardcore players are, you need something that's going to be more challenging than the torture chambers and Satan as the final boss. You're going to need more raid mechanics and you're going to need to trust your player base that you have... Well, trust your game design that you've coached them to be able to figure out those raid mechanics. And then trust your players to really sink their teeth into it and enjoy that kind of challenge.

[00:59:52] And honestly, I agree with you with what you're saying. Part of the reason why I was interested in doing Destiny Raids is because like that one night, you know, this is a treasured memory in Cameron and I's friend group where we were up way late. We're all exhausted. We finally beat the Taken King, you know, the King's Fall raid in Destiny. Like, man, that's like the top gaming experience for me. How do you recreate something like that? And it's freaking tough.

[01:00:22] It's really tough and it is extremely inaccessible because to even get to a point where you can like enter that raid, you need to have achieved specific things in the game and you need to play at a specific skill level. Right? So you're right. Here we are. How do you make that accessible but still retain the friction and challenge? How do you put that in a bottle and sell it and sell it at a gas station? That's 33 Immortals right there, right? That's their goal.

[01:00:47] And honestly, I think that they're probably doing the best that you possibly can do of trying to make both of those ends of the spectrum. They're doing a pretty good job. Yeah. They're doing a great job. I will. If the Paradise final boss, I see clips of it and it feels like a Destiny raid or something, then I'm going to be like, ooh, maybe I need to hop back in there. Maybe I need to grind it up. I think the final boss is just God straight up, right? It's kind of funny, right?

[01:01:14] A lot of times you take down God, but very rarely, I feel like in a video game, is God going to be like the Judeo-Christian God. You know what I mean? I feel like that's kind of a risk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though it's... Is it literally going to be like a white guy with hair and like a flowing beard? I haven't read Paradise, so I can't remember. I don't know the description of God. They do a pretty good job with the description of Satan in Inferno, though. That'd be pretty funny if it's just like...

[01:01:44] The South Park God. It's a guy that looks like Obi-Wan Kenobi. Oh. Hey, maybe it's a bunch of biblically accurate angels. Oh, yeah. That'd be freaky. That would be freaky. Well, ladies and gentlemen, this podcast isn't freaky, so if you like it and you like this episode on 33 Immortals, please leave a review on your podcast platform of choice that helps people find the show.

[01:02:11] You can also support us directly on patreon.com slash periodercast where you can get extended editions of our regular episodes. You can get special topics. And don't worry if you're a Patreon subscriber and you're listening to this and you're like, where's my special topic episode for April. We're going to get extra ones in because I think we might have missed last month, so we'll make sure and get you extra freebies there. You can also find Jake's Indie Impressions. He's doing constant episodes on all the indie games that are coming out.

[01:02:40] That's all separate and all available on Patreon at whatever access level you want it. You can also find us on Blue Sky at Pre-Order Cast. Thank you so much for listening. And have a great night. Thank you.