Shining the Holy Ark - A Time Exploration, Pt. 2 | Forgotten Worlds

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, it's your boy Dre off the top here. This is part two of a two-part discussion on Shining the Holy Ark. If you didn't hear part one a couple of weeks ago, check the description of this podcast to find your link to that because this is a direct continuation of that discussion. So definitely listen to part one so you can understand and have context to what's going on here. Or you can just live dangerously and keep listening. That's fine too.

[00:00:26] But whatever the case may be, thank you for joining us and we'll continue with part two of Shining the Holy Ark right now. It's time for a fight.

[00:01:00] I, you know, if you have anything like real deep to say about the battle system here, go ahead. I just think it's like your typical dungeon crawling. You have your spells, you have your basic attacks, you can do some really fun crits. I love all the critical attacks. They're very over the top.

[00:01:19] See, that's why this game is good. It's all the first person credit animation is good too. Yeah, it's incredible. Like I love a ninja man when he does a credit. He throws a couple of ninja stars and comes down on him. He can even, he Zuna drop a bitch. Yeah, dude. It's crazy. You know, oh man, I love the main character can just randomly do like some ice sword thing or flame sword. And it's like, how is this happening? Don't worry about it. Don't think about it. Just he hit him real hard. So his sword person flames. It's fine.

[00:01:50] Yeah, I loved, I loved all that shit. I guess, I guess maybe like any, anything in that regard bad, like whether it's battle system or just battle animations in general. Yeah, the battling in this game is very strange in general because there are like two sounds that enemies make and they're both horrifying. The death sound is fucking like everything makes and it's just like the most frightening thing in the world.

[00:02:18] Whether it's a kobold or a skeleton or anything. It's like, dude, you don't even have vocal cords. Yeah, the enemy designs are all really strange. They like, it's low poly 3D stuff that looks like it's made out of clay. You've got like disconnected jaws and like just things that visually I can't tell what I'm looking at, like what part of this is supposed to be alive, whatever.

[00:02:43] Uh, and then sometimes it's something much more normal, like a bat or whatever, but sometimes it's just like, I, I, this is a plant monster of some kind, I guess, but I don't really understand what it is. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. The, the actual combat itself is not super complex. Um, I think as you level up, you start to de-specify a little bit. Um, like melody gets, you know, your mage gets more like, uh, physical damage options.

[00:03:10] Uh, Arthur, your player character gets more like, uh, healing and magic stuff. And, uh, roadie gets a bit more well run. Like you start to, everyone gets access to a little bit of everything. I think as they, as they level up, which allows you to kind of, that is weird. Uh, cause if you think about shining in the darkness, you have your very strict warrior mage, like black mage. And then like keeler, which is much more, you know, wizardry. It's much more in that vein of, uh, like defined classes in the like old, like D and D sense.

[00:03:39] I just remember this one thing in shining in the darkness. I thought it was dead. I thought I was going to game over. And then both, I just, I just mashed the buttons, like whatever, both the, both the healers critted. I saved my ass. I was like, holy shit. I can't believe that happened. It's one of those things is like, statistically, has this ever happened to anyone before? Probably not. Nope. It was like, whatever, save my fucking ass. I'll take it. Um, yeah. But I guess like shining in the darkness is a much tougher game than holy arc.

[00:04:09] Holy arc is definitely like experience, right? Yeah. They don't want this battle system to be like too punishing. It's definitely not an easy game by any means. No, it's not a cakewalk, but it's not trying to beat the stuffing out of you the way that, uh, a lot of DRPGs tend to do. Yeah. Which I love by the way. Yeah. Yeah. That can be fun. It's because it forces you to kind of like pull back a little bit and start, you know, like I was talking earlier, like pushing just a little bit further every time into that dungeon, that labyrinth or whatever.

[00:04:38] Um, and like, that's what makes that loop work. And that's what makes the, uh, like climbing the power curve work. Um, but that's not what holy arc is about. Holy arc is about, uh, a story in a world and adventure and taking you on a journey, um, through a bunch of different places with different people and doing different things. It's much more, um, thematically and narratively concerned than it is, uh, mechanically. I think.

[00:05:07] I, I'm sorry. This is going to be my old man moment of, of the show. I think nineties world maps are so superior. That shit looks crazy. I love the map in this one. And your character just sorts of, I think that's the only time you really, well, you can see him in like the CGI stuff. Yeah. The, like the level up portraits and the menus, but yeah, otherwise it's always first person.

[00:05:32] So you don't see very ridiculously 1997 ass, like 2d map. I'm going to the next town or dungeon or whatever is just, uh, the best dot with a line and another dot on the other end of the line. And they got some, some icons. They got like a little forest, a little house, little town. You love a little town. You know who doesn't love a little town in the forest, in the mountains. Come on, man. Those are some honest, hardworking people.

[00:06:04] We got it. We got an East shrine. We got a West shrine. And a South shrine. We have a lot of shrines. It is. It is. Shrine city. Yeah. It's, it's, it's great stuff. Yeah. And he just kind of strut, he just kind of struts along across the world map to the next thing. I feel stupid though. I always get thrown off because, uh, the, like, uh, the, the text, like a little title for the areas on the map.

[00:06:32] It's like, I'm trying to, it's, is it the ones that you're not on that the text is blinking and the one that you are on, it's not blinking. I believe that is the case. Yes. Whichever way it is, I always got it backwards in terms of like, which one I was like highlighted or whatever. It would end up being a UI problem because I'm stupid that way, but he dumb everybody. Yeah. It's fine. I only make UI for video games. It's fine. That's all. Well, don't do it that way. Yeah.

[00:07:02] Which all this to say, whatever way I'm doing it is wrong by default. That's yeah. Um, the battle animations, man, all the stuff like I, okay, I've, I've, I've never seen a game do this before where you're walking along the dungeon and the way the enemies appear to you. The way they, the animation around the corner off screen somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. If like, so like if there's a zombie, they'll kind of like creep around the corner, look at you, then kind of walk into your view.

[00:07:31] And then you start fighting. It's not just like battle screen flash and then like guys appear, which would have been, I guess, fine. But like, cause that's what every other game does. But this is a really like, it doesn't change your point of view. It's because it's all still first person and grid based. Like you're, it doesn't like have to shift modality or whatever. Like it's still, the camera doesn't have to move. Nothing has to flash or anything. Like it's just, you are still looking at the exact same thing you were a second ago, but now an enemy is coming around from the corner and music is happening.

[00:08:00] And you're going into the battle menu or whatever, but it's still happening exactly where you were. And I think that is neat because they'll play with that with the, I guess we should probably set up the whole pixie thing. There are little, little helpers you can grab that you can find in your adventures. Like dudes. Yeah. Little dudes going around. They're like hidden items. Sometimes there are different types of pixies that you can have kind of like equipped.

[00:08:29] If that makes sense. Um, and, uh, you'll have a couple of them on the bottom of the screen and you can cycle through them with the, uh, shoulder buttons to pick one to highlight. And when an enemy shows up, whether it's, uh, walking around the corner or like, sometimes they'll, uh, like jump scare you from like the top of the screen. Like they're peeking over, like looking down from above, like they're dropping upside down on you, which is good. Uh, stuff like that.

[00:08:53] And, uh, while that animation is happening, you, uh, press a button to launch, send out, I don't know, send forth your pixies and, uh, different species. I guess there's like gnomes and fairies and shit. Like, uh, different ones will have different types of attacks and will work from different like angles or whatever. Like there's some that, uh, will, uh, like fly in a spiral and get some on the sides.

[00:09:18] There's some that will run in a straight line and get enemies that are coming in, uh, from further away at you or whatever. And, uh, they will do a bunch of damage to the enemy at the beginning of the fight before anyone takes a turn so that you're going in with it being softened a little bit. Uh, and stuff like that. But, uh, it's such a weird idea. They could have totally gotten rid of it and lost nothing. It's totally vestigial. You don't need to engage with it at all. But it's so weird. Oh yeah. I like it.

[00:09:48] See, I don't like, I don't dislike it, but it's like, it's strange. Yeah, it is strange because it's like you would have to either be really, really on your shit reflexes wise to switch to the correct type of pixie. Once you like figure out what enemy is coming and in that very brief window of animation time before it's too early or too late to, uh, respond by throwing the pixie out or whatever. Like, it's just, I don't know. It's strange.

[00:10:17] I feel like getting it timed right so that the attack actually works is weirdly difficult and hard to read. Yeah. I will say the random encounters is very funny on console though, because you can still tell when they're coming because it will stop for a second. You hear the disc spin up in the drive and it's like, God, what game did I used to cheat with that? I feel shit. I actually think it may have been beyond the beyond. There was some PS one game I used to do that with right here. The thing grind for a bit.

[00:10:47] It's like, Oh, it's fucking, Oh God. You know what? Whenever I think of like dish shenanigans, you know what I think of you ever played D2? Oh yeah. Okay. Actually, that might be what I was thinking of because I was running around and the, you hear the DD, the GD ROM just start like grinding to a halt. Uh, when an enemy encounter is about to happen, that might've been it actually. I would legit love to have you on to talk about D2. I think that game is in saying, I played through the first two discs of that like a couple months ago.

[00:11:16] So it's still fresh in mind. If you want to talk about D2, let's just talk about right. Fuck, fuck. All right. Let me go downstairs and grab a copy of it. No, I need to. I will. Well, that'll be fun. Prep. Cause Kenji and it was a whole thing. Kenji. No is dude. I, um, I need to figure out dreamcast emulation, which is something that I'm going to do. I've never done. So I'll have to. That's also a thing that has only recently become, uh, viable. Right.

[00:11:44] I'll have to play some stuff that I know like the back of my hand and then see how good it is. And now I can, so I could see the artifacts or what's going on and then take it from there. But yeah, I would love to do that anyway. I think it's weird just because like you, they make a point of like, you find these little, little dudes in the world. They have little fairies or whatever. You go, Oh, here's a little corner. Did you search here? Oh, here's another. No, you found me. Those gnomes are buff as fuck. By the way, they are like, they are jacked.

[00:12:13] Those dudes have like the muscle mass of a normal human, but they're like four inches tall. It's like they just compound all of that into a little action figure man. Yeah. But the best thing to me is not just the way the enemies appear to you on the screen as when you're going to battle, but also the boss stuff. Like they always have like a CGI intro, like a short scene of that shit. So cool. Like the race one.

[00:12:43] Yes. Oh my God. I lost my shit when I saw that. That was so fucking cool. I love this game is also not real. Like virtual. This game is, I cannot believe it. It, it seriously does feel surreal. Like it's so insane. This, I would have loved, oh, if I had had this game and I knew about this game. And because I, again, I read magazines religiously back then. I knew about shining the Holy arc. I just did not have a Saturn.

[00:13:11] And of course, if any of my, the one person I knew who had one did, we just, I went over there and just played street fighter alpha in virtual fighter two. That's what we were doing. And so like, I don't even think he was particularly interested in RPGs. So like, he did not have this. That's the thing, man. Like my perception of the Saturn in America in its day is so strange because I feel like they were pushing really hard for like arcade ports at home and sports games and kind of

[00:13:38] failing on both of those fronts in a lot of ways. Unless it's, you know, you're talking about like, you know, like Capcom ports and stuff like that. Things that make sense. But like it was huge in Japan. It was far and away the biggest success that Sega would ever have to the point that it was like a lot of Saturn like releases on disc in retail, you know, context in Japan were not video games in the traditional sense. They're apps. Like there are like bus guides.

[00:14:07] Like you, people talk about, you know, Tokyo bus guide for the Dreamcast or whatever, but like there's stuff like that for the Saturn. There's all kinds of like, there's like that interactive interview disc with Ayrton Senna. There's a lot of other stuff like that. That's just for like musicians, J-pop idols and stuff like that. Like there's so much weird stuff on the Saturn. There's like, there are recipe books that are just interactive on that. Like there's just stuff. Yeah. It's just a software platform. Like it's just a computer that. Yeah.

[00:14:35] Anyway, point is Saturn was this wild, super broad thing in its home market where there's just like an unbelievable breadth of strange, novel, unique ways to interact with the game system that you don't really see elsewhere, especially not, you know, here or really outside of Japan, like at all. But yeah, like there are a lot of reasons to own a Saturn if you lived in Japan in the

[00:15:03] nineties, but if you lived in the United States or Canada or even really Europe, like it's expensive. You're not getting a lot of support from a lot of the third party that you're used to. There's like the, yeah, it's just, there's so, there are so many reasons not to have a Saturn if you're not in Japan in the nineties. I don't blame. You would have had to have been, so obviously for me, you would have to have been an arcade freak. I guess. And I was. Because no one's looking at Bug and like, I need this. He, you know what?

[00:15:33] My, that friend, he did have Bug and I remember playing it. No one has ever. He did. No. I swear to God he had Bug. Don't lie to me. I'm not fucking with you right now. No one has ever paid money for Bug. Bug is too stupid to lie about. Okay. If I'm going to make up something, it's going to be. T-O-O exclamation mark. But yeah, no, I played Bug and I was like, this is weird.

[00:16:04] Sure. I guess. And then when I turned it on, I played it for a good 20 minutes. I'm like, oh, okay, whatever. And then he didn't even have any of the cool other like platform. Like I never, I only knew about a stall from like magazines and clockwork night. He didn't have any of that. So like it just, it just was not on the radar. You know what it is too. And this is like a underrated aspect. I think like you would have to, again, you'd have to grow up in the era like me to really understand this or just know it retroactively.

[00:16:34] Maybe is that sports games. That was the Sega Genesis here. I'm not saying that's the only thing people played here, but that was a big deal. People thought Sega sports, even as like a brand was like a thing. And of course they got that back. I almost wore that hat instead of the pink gorilla one before I sat down, by the way. You have a Sega sports hat. Fuck. Okay. He's going to go. I can't wait to see this, folks. It's going to be good. Can't wait.

[00:17:03] I don't hear any noises this time. He's not dropping anything. Oh, show me that shit, bitch. Oh, hell yeah. Look at that. I think the tags were like 94, 95, something like that. It does not fit my gigantic head. Oh, you're not even with the strappies on the back. You can't even like. Oh, it's it's on the last one. It just does not go down far enough. Okay. That thing is straining.

[00:17:34] A big old noggin. Yeah. Wow. That is. That's great. The dumbest Sega hat that I have. I have a trucker hat behind me here from 1981 for Sega Turbo, but it's falling apart. The foam is disintegrating. So I don't know. Well, this is this is now you're appropriately dressed for the segment. Yes. Yeah. But it's true. Sega like was synonymous with like sports games, whether, whether it was, whether it's theirs or not, whether it's Madden. That was a space they could own. So they did.

[00:18:03] And Saturn simply did not have that. They tried. So that was a big deal. There are a lot. They tried first party sports games on the Saturn. They tried to really, really, really hard. And baseball in particular, like there's a huge. Yes. Long running. There's a lot. All of the weird, like bottom of the ninth and like all of that stuff. And like the triple play, I think the whole, like the lineage of World Series baseball and like the different games that are called that, that have nothing to do with each other

[00:18:31] on different like Sega platforms and stuff like that. Like all of the, like there's a huge pro Yaku. If you seen for lack of a better word, there are a ton of baseball games on the Genesis and the Saturn and a lot of other games on there as well of various sports. But yeah, Saturn was not getting it done. No, they were, they were not because like PlayStation ate their lunch. Like NFL game day was the shit back then.

[00:18:57] Or like even the Konami stuff, like what, like running, not running gun. What is that? In the zone. In the zone, I think for PlayStation one. Sorry. I almost said NBA inside drive, which is the Xbox sports network. No. But yeah, but like, you know, PlayStation Saturn both got like NBA jam and stuff like that. So like, you know, whatever it had that, but like it was just PlayStation slam and all that stuff.

[00:19:26] It's just, yeah, it's there, but it was not like the PS one is such a juggernaut for that stuff. Yeah. So like they took over the sports market when that was, again, I know it's hard for people to think about that when the sports market is now just like Madden and the show. But back then sports games were a much bigger deal. Like, so you, you know, you had people like that was a genre of game that people played that weren't just into that genre of game. Like, you know, now, like, you know, obviously NBA 2K is a massive, like bazillion dollar

[00:19:55] industry onto itself because it's a gambling platform above all else. But like people that play 2K, play 2K. People that play Madden, play Madden. And they play that every year. Like, and people that play the show, they play the show. But like people that don't, don't. And I think there was a long time, like, I think we've touched a bit, like when Greg's been on flashbacks. We've talked about the ways in which broader games culture tends to memory whole sports

[00:20:25] games a lot. To the point that like the best you'll get from gamers is like, oh, I heard NBA Jam's a good one. That one's safe for me. The not jock to play. Hey, and like there's this weird dichotomy there. But like, I think that did just start to separate really hard as they started leaning really, really hard into the kind of the EA style of licensed professional sports, the FIFA and everything going really in the kind of PS2 era after.

[00:20:56] Because before that, before things like Madden and all that started getting really, really intricate before the advent of a truck stick, idiots like me could play these games. Yes. You know, it's tough. It's too hard. They're hard. They're too hard. They're complicated. Yes. I can't even do that. I've been playing baseball games my whole life. I can't even like when I pick up the show nowadays, I'm like, bro, what am I fucking? I can't even go first to third on a single to right field anymore.

[00:21:25] Like, I don't even know how to control this shit. I think the last show game I had any like kind of competence in was on the PSP. Like, it's just been I've been out of the game too long, man. Like I had the show 10 on PSP. I had the show 12 on Vita. Yeah. Yeah. And those were good. And I played a couple in the PS4 era and I have like the last time I tried one was I think the show 21 or something I have for PS5. It's a lot, dude.

[00:21:54] I'm not even saying that they're bad. It's just that like you cannot any any fucking idiot can pick up and play NBA Jam like me. Right. Like, but you can't good luck figuring out what to do in NBA 2K. Good goddamn luck to you. Yeah. No idea. Like even just watching gameplay footage of it. I'm like, there are so many things going on here that I feel like I'm watching someone play a MOBA. Like, I don't. It feels like watching some crazy esports or something like I don't know what I'm looking at anymore. It's so far beyond. It is a lot. Yeah.

[00:22:24] But yes. Anyway, that to say back then, this was a big push for Sega. And that's something that I think they were trying to own as a like differentiating factor in the market there. And they probably could have if the PlayStation didn't explode the way that it did, because obviously that's where that sports game market went. But if they didn't have to compete with that, like if they just had to compete with the N64, they would have been fine on that front. I think they would be. But even in 64 had better options. They had that Kobe game.

[00:22:54] They had like options that were even a little bit better than Saturn's had to say, like just even even baseball or whatever sport. Right. Oh, God. It had that. What was that really popular? The Gretzky, the hockey game. Then the 64, that was a big deal. Right. I feel like Flashback just did like two hockey games in a row that sounded identical. And I don't remember what either of them were. If it's not NHL hits, I don't know.

[00:23:21] It had a glowing puck and everything like it was it was a big deal. Yes. But anyway, but yeah, Sega lost her grip on that. And so that was that again. That's not the only reason why Saturn wasn't a thing here. It's just there was I think we can all agree that the main reason that the Saturn never took off in the United States is they did not secure the Ken Griffey Jr. License. Oh, no, they could not. Nintendo secured rare air was put to work and then Ken Griffey games happened.

[00:23:50] Those games are so weird. I love them. I love them so much. They're so weird. I like I like them, too. This or do you have a favorite baseball game of all time? I do. I have I have an answer to this. I not one I think is best or whatever, but like in terms of closest to my heart, I played a lot of the first and 64 Griffey as a kid. A lot. It's like that and like RBI baseball on the NES are probably the two that I messed with most.

[00:24:17] The NES version of Baseball Stars from SNK. Oh, my absolute fucking favorite, dude. I love that game so much. For whatever reason, I thought you were going to say the NES version of Baseball Simulator 1000. That's not bad. That's not bad. I like the SNES one more, but it's not bad. The SNES one is on Nintendo Switch Online. I definitely turn that on sometime. Fine time.

[00:24:51] I'm sick. I'm sick. I'm sick. I'm sick. I'm sick. Shining the Holy Arch. Right. Wow. Yes. Back to nerd shit. I'll take off my fucking sports hat. Grab it out of here. Throw that shit. Okay. Do we deign to talk about Motoi Sakuraba? How do you even begin? That dude is like, this is so.

[00:25:21] Dude, I want it to be like, okay, so before this, he had been like, there's not that much. I mean, like, there is. There's not that much. Most of his stuff that we know him for now is well after this. Like, it freaked me out the other day when I was talking to another composer friend about one Motoi Sakuraba. And he was like, oh, yeah, the Dark Souls guy. And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess technically also that. Like, he did also do those. Like, it's just, yeah, dude is all over the place.

[00:25:47] He's such a ridiculously, unbelievably versatile composer. Like, he's just. Dude's got a brain the size of a planet. He's incredible. As you know, last year, I was playing through the Baton Kaito remaster. Yeah, yeah. Just playing. Oh, hearing those tunes. It's not my, you know, it's one I have a lot of affinity for. I don't know if it's like his best soundtrack, but it's definitely like, yo, man, this guy was just. And that's in the first half of the 2000s.

[00:26:17] That's when he was fucking working. Namco had that dude on an assembly line. Yeah. Like full ass RPG soundtracks, like tales and. Tales of this, tales of this, tales of this. Oh, my God, dude. It's crazy. And they were all quality. And it's just like, dude, his work here on shining the holy arc is incredible, man.

[00:26:44] It's maximalist as hell for Rompler work to like, it's very almost aggressively just like bright and. How do you describe this? Like, it's so loud and unsubtle. Like, there's just a lot going on and like the samples that are out of tune and it's. Yeah. But it also rocks. I don't know. It's. The main battle theme has this like very rock flair to it.

[00:27:11] And it does not seem to have a guitar sound or at least not one that's discernible to me. It's just this very like. This is this bed of synthesizers just jabbing you. So it's just it's incredible stuff, right? Like, I love the the the drum track on that. It's just like this high, like this high. Ah, it's just it's great stuff. I'm terrible at describing this kind of music sometimes, but just he has it all.

[00:27:35] He has the range, even just the small, like quiet town tune of just like, ah, look at these peaceful people living in this mountain town of 30 people. He has that. And then he has like ridiculous prog rock drum breakdowns in the boss fight music and stuff like it. Oh, my God. Like Uematsu organs. And yeah, it's he's got all of your bases covered here. When this is over, I have to send you the battle, the the boss theme to in Bat and Kaito's. It's nuts. Oh, yeah.

[00:28:05] No, my wife. I can't talk. My wife played through that first one when the remaster came out and it was just. Oh, so you've heard it. OK, yeah, it's it's crazy stuff. Yeah, good stuff. Yeah, he he he has it in this game. Again, I don't even know what else to say. He's just he's a legend. And this this game is how not just this game, but games like this is how we built that legend. It's totally great stuff.

[00:28:31] I don't understand how he has so much in him. And it just keeps like he does not run out of amazing music. It's so wild. But also, like, I don't know, I just I think it says something when I look at a career and I'm like, yeah, he did score those three Dark Souls games. I think it's also his weakest work. Like, it's like, damn, dude. All right. Have you played? Have you played Mario Tennis Aces on Switch? That shit sound.

[00:29:01] Dude, he still has it. That music is crazy. I fully believe it. Yeah, it's so good, man. Oh, man. Like some of the stuff in like the not and it's not a story mode, but whatever the single player kind of progression mode is. Oh, my God, dude. He still has. It was like Camelot is still using him. Like the Tales team is still like what used to be Wolf Team is still using him. Like, yeah, people love working with this dude. Like, that's the reason that he was working on from stuff is because it's the from stuff

[00:29:27] that's been published by Namco Bondi and they have this dude. Like, I don't know if he's on retainer or what, but like they just people like working with them. And I it makes sense because it's incredible. His Mario sports work is honestly and I know I'm a Nintendo guy, but it's just some of my favorite work to do. It's just because like before that, like the the GameCube, I can't remember the GameCube Mario Tennis, whatever that one's called. That was like one of my favorite soundtracks of his. That shit was crazy. I think Mario Tennis Aces is even better.

[00:29:57] That shit's so good. So I love that he still has it and I love that he's been doing it this long and just I you know, I just like that in general. Like I was thinking of like what's a guy who cut his teeth on Chrono Trigger? Yes, no. Yeah, thank you. He's him and Yoko Shimomura are largely responsible for that first Xenoblade soundtrack. I mean, there's like other there's other composers there, too, but they kind of did the bulk

[00:30:27] of it. You can tell I love when it's like I have you haven't heard someone shit in a while. And that was the case of Sakuraba before Mario Tennis Aces. I was like, still has it back, you know, he's back, baby. And that's how I felt when I first played Xenoblade. I was like, God damn it. These two. Holy shit. You know? So yeah, the music in Shining the Holy Ark is top notch. Can't. It's really, really excellent. Well, we kind of talked about difficulty and how this game is.

[00:30:57] This is an especially difficult game. What do you think about the fact that like the map is just kind of included? You can just kind of look at the map whenever you want, because like in first person dungeon games, it's not always the case. They want you to either draw it or you have to use a spell like in Shining in the Darkness. You have to use a spell. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like you can't or you can just draw it yourself, obviously. Yes. Like this game just kind of gives it to you.

[00:31:23] So I don't think again, I don't think that's bad, but it gives it a certain feel that like, I don't know. This is not the first fantasy star anymore, I guess. Right. Sorry. The dumb prop that I was looking for the second ago while you were vamping was the wizardry branded grid paper notebook. Got it too, baby. It came with a hoodie. Anyway, got that thing too. Well, I got the I got the tote bag and then I got the Yeah.

[00:31:53] Oh, that's right. You're the one that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I got the tote bag. But yeah, I don't know. I think having a what used to be called an auto mapper is fine and makes perfect sense for a game like this. I don't think so in this game, it comes up when you press the start button out and about when you're in a dungeon or whatever. It will just bring up a grid menu overlay. And that's pretty common. I think for a lot of until you get to like the DS and you have things like

[00:32:22] Dark Spire and Etrian Odyssey where it's either a separate screen or you're drawing your own with a stylus or whatever. And the old fashioned way of doing it with the grid paper is really fun as well if you're crazy. But no, I think it would be that's that's weird and probably annoying if Holy Ark did not have this available to the player. I think. I think so as well, because like here's the thing I can kind of bully my way.

[00:32:49] I'm pretty good at having my keeping my bearings in a first person dungeon. That doesn't mean I'm perfect at it. I can definitely get lost, but I think I can. I have sort of an aptitude for that. What's that game on UFO 50? The dungeon crawler. Gosh, I don't remember now. You fight like you fight like cross swords like the Neo Geo game like a real time. Yeah. Valbrace. Valbrace. Valbrace. I love that game. I have not beaten that game yet. I can't wait to dig in and graph paper that game.

[00:33:18] But yeah, it's I can kind of I kind of bullied my way through the first couple floors just kind of like, OK, I kind of have a sense of where I am here. Shining the Holy Ark. I think I could also do as well. Again, I mean, we're in a different era. We have very like different looking environments now. It's not it's not like a again, a fantasy star or something where it's like, here are the walls and that is it. Like there's no other like distinguishing features. Yeah.

[00:33:47] You know, also, you know, it's also and again, this sounds so simple to anyone who doesn't play these. The fact that Shining the Holy Ark has like rounded curved like paths and edges and stuff. Yeah, it's not it's not a literal grid. Yeah. You have like actual like twists and turns, which is like, whoa, this is this is the 90s, baby. No, I'm on a rail. What is this? Killer seven. Holy shit.

[00:34:16] I just got as of this recording a few days ago, I was just on retro hangover talking about killer seven. So, yes, I was nice, nice, nice thinking about stuff like that. But yeah, I like all that sort of stuff is is great. Other than that. Yeah, I think like as far as like the game game goes, unless you got anything else. Um, not really, I feel like we talked around it from so many odd angles. I think I was interested when you mentioned wanting to cover.

[00:34:44] So initially, you know, we talked about wanting to do wisdom for this as well. But we also talked about doing the first part of Shining Force three, which was a trilogy of scenarios. It was a three part game in Japan. We only got the first part of here. Yeah, because at that point, it was quite honestly, we're even lucky to even have gotten that. Yeah, frankly, at that point. Yeah. At that point, getting things like that or like Dragon Force and stuff, just really, really limited print runs of stuff like that out here. I need to play.

[00:35:13] I have never played Dragon Force. I want to try it. Yeah. It's weird. Throwing hundreds of dudes against each other at once. They just kind of like bounce off. It's yeah. I always call that a magazine game because it looked great in screenshots. Oh, my God. There's so many guys on the screen. You know, like I was like, holy shit. Yeah. Uh, yeah, like it's, um, like famously, uh, Pants of Dragon Saga. They only ended up after two print runs totaled out to like 15,000 copies or something like that. Yeah.

[00:35:39] For the US, like they just were not like the Saturn was dead, dead here at the end of 97. Like they just stopped. Like they pulled out, we're not shipping and not even third party stuff. Like there are games that came out in Japan on the Saturn in 98 and 99. They're fully in English that did not come out here because they just, they were done. It was dead. It was time to just pull the plug and put everything into trying to get the Dreamcast to be the thing. Yeah. I think after Final Fantasy seven, it was just fucking over.

[00:36:09] Honestly, there was just nothing left at that point. Like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, which again, it sucks because there was still awesome stuff coming out on the Saturn. It just was not ever going to be able to live here. It would not have been, uh, something that they could sustain, which is why you were starting to get such dwindling, uh, numbers for games like this. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's that all being said, um, it's interesting to me to look at shining

[00:36:37] the Holy Ark as a picture of the Saturn and its place in like the American second, you know, slice of the games market in the nineties. Um, cause that's kind of how you pitch this to me. It was like, let's look at these games as a way of kind of, I got the impression at least that you were trying to like fill in some blanks from that era, from reading magazines and stuff, right. From games that you had seen a lot of thumbnails of or read reviews of and stuff that hadn't

[00:37:02] actually like ever sat down and like, uh, gone back to or whatever, but more or less vaguely. Yeah. That's basically it. Yeah. You kind of pitch it to me as wanting to get exploring the Saturn for the first time on my own terms through shining a series. I know, which, uh, seemed like an interesting end to me because like I, uh, my, my experience with the shining series is largely limited to, uh, Holy Arkans in the darkness.

[00:37:29] And then the other ones that I've like dabbled with, like I have shining force one on Genesis and, uh, uh, you know, I put a few hours in a resonance reframe, but like stuff like that. Um, but like, I, I've not played, uh, like shining force two or three or, you know, any of the other, uh, weird ones, whatever. So it's not a series that I am necessarily super, uh, attached to. And Camelot is not a developer that I have a huge history with, but I do like DRPGs and I like these games and I like Sakuraba and I like the Saturn.

[00:37:59] Um, so, uh, I was excited to jump in on this, but it's also like, again, because I feel like this is a very specific slice of the, like, uh, overall, I don't know, software identity of the Saturn. Um, because like what we got in America is a slice and then like, you know, of, of what came out on it in total. Um, and then, you know, the, the, this part of it is like a slice of that slice.

[00:38:27] And then having this be the one, like weird pre-rendered 3d game with all this other, like extra vestigial stuff that makes it weird, even within its own series and on its own platform and from its own developer, like it's, it's different for Camelot game. It's different for a Saturn game. It's different for a shining game. It's different for a DRPG. It's different for a shining DRPG. Like there are just so many weird little things about it that make it its own unique thing that I don't even really necessarily think of Holy Ark as a Saturn game. I think of it as a video game that happened to release on the Saturn.

[00:38:57] Um, cause like it's so self-contained as its own weird little like work in my brain. I don't know. Can I say something very first? Please do because I'm floundering again. Go ahead. No, no, this is perfect. I'm going to say something. You're not going to like it though. Perfect. Shining the Holy Ark 64. Yeah, no, it's, it feels more in line with it. It does, doesn't it? It does have 64 energy on it for sure. Yeah. I think if this were an N64 game now, look, you probably couldn't do all the CGI nearly. It would be a different video game.

[00:39:27] Not like that. Right? But all the pre, I think I love. Pre-rendered stuff would be real time though, I think. Like it would look like with 64. See, here's the thing. I love the way N64 does pre-renders. I do. I like the way that shit looks on there. So if they could still have the same character sprites, the town stuff would be probably better. It wouldn't, it definitely wouldn't slow down like that, but like they could still have the bespoke sort of like the way the enemies appear.

[00:39:56] I think if this were an N64 game, I think it would have been at least more appreciated here anyway. Cause obviously that was a much more popular system. Yeah. I mean, you could also kind of a bit star for RPGs at that point. Very, very forever. Like, I mean, famously, if you want an RPGs RPG on the N64, it's like you got Quest or you got Aiden Chronicles or you learn Japanese. Yeah.

[00:40:21] You know, like, but yeah, I think looking at something like Shadowgate 64, I think you could use as a template. I've never played that game. I've got to play that game. I learned recently. People don't like that game. I like that game. See, yeah. See, I don't know. I've heard. Yeah. See, I've heard a very split vote on that. Yeah. I need to play that game for myself sometime. Yeah. It's neat. It'll be a while before that gets up on flashback, but I signed up for that one like immediately. I was like, goo. I know no one else is going to want to talk about this.

[00:40:50] And I think I put that on Nintendo classic sometime. I will definitely. Absolutely not happening, but it should. Really? Why not? Is the rights like fucked up or something? Or I just assumed so. I don't know who owns the Shadowgate. I don't know. All sorts of all sorts of weird shit appears on there. I don't know. Fair enough. It's like, I guess there is. I think I, in my mind, the NSO stuff is like where they put out the things that exist in the same tier as like the black box NES games, you know, like they start that way, but then they start getting weird.

[00:41:20] That's true. That's what I did. It's a pulse man on there. Didn't they? Like, yeah. Yes, they did. Yes, they did. In the middle of us doing our game freak before Pokemon thing, they actually put pulse man on there. So that's right. I think that's probably why. Yeah. Yeah. We spoke it into existence. But yeah, I, your assessment of the era is very, very good for a young man. Someone who was barely there. Yeah.

[00:41:50] You, you got it. That's, that's how it went down. That's kind of why I wanted to do this. Cause I, I also, whether we did all the shining games or not, I, I really, I think the Saturn and America is fascinating. We know how it went in Japan. I'm that's not that interesting.

[00:42:20] I think it's much more interesting to talk about how it was perceived here. It comes like back around in a weird way, because I feel like for a long time, uh, people talking about the Saturn in America on the internet, we're talking about the, you know, the, the, the implosion of it and the, like the moving, the launch date and the not telling the, uh, retailers and just like all of this stuff. That's the, you know, the, the, the story of the death and the failure of the Saturn here.

[00:42:46] And then after that got out of the way, it's like, we have years of like, you know, weird import retro game nerds like us that are, you know, digging into all the weird shit. And you have like all of the people in our, like, you know, blue sky circle and stuff, um, that are, that have that ground covered. Like the, the weirdo stuff is weirdly more represented now. I feel like in, in our various, uh, social circles on the Saturn and, uh, it almost feels more novel now to go back and look at the, like the much more limited, like tangible,

[00:43:15] like what, no, like what was it actually like to experience that like in real time here? And so that's something that I think about a lot because I, um, again, thinking about like how young I actually was during, it's a very small window of active operation in the U S which is really just 96, 97. And then the fact that it's just kind of like, I didn't know about it until after the dream cast, like just have, that's so weird. It feels so weird now.

[00:43:41] Like, especially it's been such a big, like obsessive part of my life for so many years now. It's a very difficult to think about a time when I didn't know about the Saturn, but, uh, yeah, straight up again, being like six years old, the dream cast came out and I was like, Oh, say good back. Yeah. Well, see, now I want to pick your brain. Like, when did you learn that about the, I don't know, Atari links or something? Yeah. I think links and Jaguar would have been around the same time.

[00:44:07] Like, I think basically if it was a failed platform from a major manufacturer, I think I like that. And like the virtual boy and like a wonder Swan, like I feel like a lot of that stuff, I fell into, uh, whatever like surface level research I could find on the internet. And I feel like I found all that stuff around the same era. Um, just somewhere around the mid two thousands. Cause it was just like, I don't know if I just lived in a weird bubble or what, but

[00:44:34] like, I, I didn't know a lot of people that were like, like everyone I knew played games, but it was a different part of the culture. Like when I was 18 and stuff, like we were already into the, like Halo and call of duty era by that point. Right. Right. Like you're at least you're starting to get into that era. Yeah. Um, you know, like I graduated high school the year that like, I think black, black ops came out question mark. I don't know. Okay. Jesus. It, whichever one had a Vietnam in it and ice cube.

[00:45:04] That was the last one I played. That's all I remember. That could be five of them to me. I don't even. I don't know. It was a long time ago, hundreds of years. Uh, but, uh, yeah, like we were not, um, like I didn't know people that were like, we weren't reading magazines cause this stuff was online at this point, but also people weren't really checking it online. It was just like, I don't know. It's, I feel like I had a wildly different relationship with, uh, games as a piece of

[00:45:31] the culture at large, more broadly than people that are, if they're a little bit older or a little bit younger than me or people that just grew up in a different place. So I don't know if I just ended up in a weird spot or what, but like, I found out about a lot of this stuff in a very weird way on my own after the fact, which feels weird. But I feel like just sometime around like, Oh, five, Oh six. I just started like digging into whatever I could find. I don't know. Like it's, I don't know where I picked up a lot of this stuff.

[00:45:59] Like early, I remember there being like, I found little like videos and stuff in the pre-YouTube era that people were putting together that were like little miniature, someone talking on a green screen documentaries of just like the story of Tetris. And it's like, here's a bunch of facts that are wrong, but like, whatever. That's what the standard was back then. And well, it was weird. Right. Cause I mean, even going through this stuff in real time, so to speak, it was more like there was a weird part, like the first half of the two thousands on the internet was just weird.

[00:46:28] Like we didn't have YouTube yet. Right. So like videos on the internet, that's not that they didn't exist, but also that also meant that like, I knew what a wonder Swan was, but it's not like I could ever, we didn't, that didn't come out here obviously. So it's not like I could ever hold one. The most, you know what? Honestly, the most I ever saw a wonder Swan stuff was like on import sites. Sure. Yeah. Like where you, where you'd buy your import games.

[00:46:57] And so like, I'd see it there. I'd see the games and that's how I learned. Oh, it has this game in that game or whatever's on this import site. So that's how it was. It's not like today where like, first of all, we would never have a Japan only system today. That would just be impossible. Like that's just not a thing that would ever happen. So also we would be able to see that shit with our own eyes. I think about that in terms of like, what's a good example?

[00:47:26] Like, oh, what's that, what's that handheld system with the little crank? Oh, yellow. Play date. Yeah. If that happened 20 years ago, that would just be like a myth, a legend. Right? Like, I don't think like it would, I mean, maybe it could be successful, but also like, you know what I mean, right? Because we can see it. We can see videos. We can see people using it. That helps a lot versus like, whatever. Oh, what? What the fuck is a wonder swan?

[00:47:53] You know, in 2002, it's like, oh, square is making games for it. That's weird. Why are they supporting this thing so hard? Okay. Whatever. A new Klonoa game. What? Yeah. It's just like, it's a, that's a completely, I don't know jack shit about wonder swan. Like literally I've never, like, I don't know anything. I've, that's, that's something I've got to explore sometime too. Point is in terms of Saturn, you're like, you were talking about how you just basically didn't know.

[00:48:19] I knew because of magazines, but also Toys R Us was at that time was a store where they just stocked everything, everything. They had TurboGrafx CD. They had Sega CD. They had Saturn. They had like, if it was a video fucking game, they had it. They had links. They had all this stuff that people think was like so weird and obscure. And it's like, I don't know. I grew up weird maybe because our Toys R Us had everything. So a nomad it had.

[00:48:46] I remember I got a nomad from Toys R Us and they're clearing them out for 50 bucks. They're just sitting in a bin. Yeah. I, you know, I don't remember seeing anything in a Toys R Us that wasn't like an N64 or a PlayStation kiosk. Interesting. I, I, I do remember, God, I, I need to ask my mom about this. I have a weird memory in my head of like going to a department store and going down to the basement floor or whatever, maybe not basement, but a lower floor than the main floor.

[00:49:15] And there was video games down there and they had a couple of kiosks when the kiosk had Gradius three on super Nintendo. So it must've been like around launch time. Yeah. The other kiosk was a master system playing Sonic. Okay. That's how I learned there was an eight bit version of Sonic. I had no idea. Yeah. So that still would've been like 91, 92. Yeah. It had to have been 91, but I feel like it was a department store that was like, not like. Like a Sears or something? Like what? Yeah. Yeah. See, I don't think it was like that.

[00:49:44] I feel like it was like something on its way out, like a Woolworths or like a, you know what I mean? Like some, some other, some other bullshit, some vestige of the mid century. Yeah. It's like thing that only exists in old movies now. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But that's like, that's like something that exists anyway. Yeah. It's, it is, it is weird how we just learn about video games sometimes, I guess. It really, really is because I remember, um, having like trying to find access to old

[00:50:10] games during the Bush years as a kid was a very difficult thing. Um, there was like, uh, NES and Super Nintendo emulation and stuff, um, which is not great. Uh, then I had like, you know, like family members with old consoles and stuff that I had access to, but like, um, I remember in, uh, like four or five calling around to every, like every place I could think of in the phone book around my town that might have an old video game box.

[00:50:40] I was just like, it was almost like more of a mental experiment than anything. I was like, can I call somewhere and say, can I buy an NES from you? And they say, yes. Like, is there anywhere I could possibly go in this town and like buy an old video game? And I couldn't find anything. There were no mom and pop shops and all the, you know, like the EB games and stuff and the, you know, KB toys or whatever. They weren't stocking old stuff. They were only, you know, whatever was the new like retail stuff.

[00:51:06] They weren't, uh, in the business of selling old secondhand, uh, video games. And so your best bet was like, get lucky thrift store, I guess. But like, even though, like I was not finding anything back then. It wasn't really until later. Like, I guess, I guess like back in the day, the thing was like a funco land, but I didn't even have a, I didn't even know where a funco land was. I was in a big city. I had no idea where a funco land was. So like, I didn't even, I know, but that was like a thing for a lot of people.

[00:51:33] Cause they always had the old games before like, you know, didn't have funco, didn't have a babbages, didn't have anyone around me that knew what I was talking about. Um, I went to a funco land once in 2002 and I bought Sonic adventure to battle. It's like the only time I went to a funco land. I, oh man, should I tell my weird Sonic adventure to battle retail story on the show? Okay. Absolutely. Tacoma, Washington is a beautiful place where dreams are made.

[00:52:03] Um, it's, it's my home. It's my favorite city in the world. I feel a deep personal responsibility for that town. Um, it's my home. I love it. Uh, okay. There used to be a lot more old game stores there. And one day I was standing in line to make a purchase at super smash games on South Tacoma way Boulevard. This would have been 2013, 14, somewhere around there.

[00:52:32] And, uh, actually I, I, I just realized I could pinpoint the exact date because of the incident that I'm about to describe, but that will take some Googling and I'll do it later. Anyway, point is, okay. Standing in line and the guy in front of me was talking to the person behind the counter and, uh, they were just making small talk like, Hey, how's your day going? And, uh, the guy just starts, the guy in front of me just starts trauma dumping on the poor girl behind the counter, um, about watching, um, his boy get shot last night.

[00:53:00] Uh, whoa, several times. Uh, and, uh, in detail, um, is, uh, talking about watching his friend, um, be murdered in front of him, uh, the night before. And, uh, and then just like ends a very awkward and real moment with, he chokes it down. He's like, so anyway, y'all got the Sonic adventure to battle on the game.

[00:53:41] Oh man. Which is really funny on its own. But then later that night, I, back when I used to occasionally still check reddit.com, I saw a video of that shooting on the Tacoma subreddit, uh, because it happened in front of dirty Oscars annex, which is a bar on sixth Ave. Um, and, uh, it's just the place I know well, but also just like that. Yes. Sometimes shootings happen outside bars in Tacoma. And I saw the video of that happen later that day. Uh, so I was like, oh no, he wasn't kidding. That was okay.

[00:54:11] Interesting. All right. But, uh, yeah, so just, he just starts trauma dumping on this poor girl and then asks the Sonic adventure to battle. So surely you're behind him in line, right? And you just see the back of his head and you're seeing her face in horror. I'm not looking at her because I can't, but, uh, yes. Oh, I was just staring at the ground bug eye. I'm like, what is happening right now? That is, that's incredible. Thank you. Thank you for enshrining that. It's a magical place.

[00:54:42] I do not remember or care what we were talking about, but, uh, anyway, I don't even care. I don't even care. I could have a much longer conversation about why it was so hard to like find and learn about old games during the era where anything with a sword on it was gay nerd shit. But, uh, you know, it's just, uh, we've been recording a long time. We've gone far away from shining the holy arc. I'm sure we'll take into these things more over the years later on as we go. But, uh, yes. But no, um, I, I don't, I don't know if I have, you know what?

[00:55:11] I'll say this and I don't know if you'll agree or disagree. I think the best way to describe shining the holy arc is that it is not an exceptional concept, right? Like we've had, we've had games like this before. It's not exceptional gameplay. We've had battle systems exactly like this before, and you know exactly what's going to happen here. What it is, is a exceptional execution and like presentation.

[00:55:41] And that makes obviously an exceptional experience. That's what it's about sometimes. Cause it's like, you think about, I don't know what's, what's a, I'm trying to think of like something that seems on its surface. I know a lot of people like to say some of its parts, but something that's like seems on the surface, like, oh, that seems like your typical, you know, whatever genre it is, but then you play it. That's like, oh, we're just really doing some shit here. But if you were describing to somebody, that's a dungeon crawler, but look at this shit and listen to this shit.

[00:56:12] You know, that's how I think of, again, I don't know if you'll agree with me on this. It's kind of how I feel about Panzer Dragoon. It's not like an exceptional like concept. It's a rail shooter. We've played those before, but it's exceptional the way it's presented to us and it's art style and et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. I think there might be something to be said about the, like, I don't know, the weird, like 3d, like quadrant shifting and stuff like that. And that being very early for 3d being a launch game for the Saturn.

[00:56:41] But yeah, I mean, like whatever. Shining a Holy Grail is not, it's not doing anything unique, but it is doing a lot of things very well and with a lot of character. And more importantly, it's putting them together very, very elegantly into what I think is a very cool and good and just a generally mood brightening video game. I also think it's like, it's like a mini, it's like a buffet plate or something, but it's

[00:57:09] like a sampler platter or whatever. It's a way to try out a lot of different game aesthetics at once. Like in terms of like, if you've never played a dungeon RPG before or whatever, like there are a lot of different components to this thing that if they're new to you, you can, I don't find out a lot about your own taste very quickly, I guess. Yeah. I don't remember where I was going with that, but. Well, I think, I think if anyone listening to this, they align with our general tastes. I mean, obviously yes. Play Shining the Holy Ark.

[00:57:39] If this sounds remotely interesting to you, 100%, give it a shot. Especially now that again, Saturn emulation is, I don't want to say perfect, but obviously miles and miles ahead of where we used to be. This kind of stuff is close. Yeah. I mean, like we've got like Mr. cores and stuff that are effectively perfect at this, but like Saturn emulation is more or less a solved problem now. And Sega is not going to sell you this game. So go get it from the crime store. I sure did.

[00:58:08] Do you have anything like interesting to say about your setup or how you play this? You just played us on a basic bit Saturn on your TV or nothing. You didn't do anything crazy or. Oop. Okay. Nothing crazy. I had a Saturn disc drive burnout on it. So I had to switch my V Saturn. But Holy Ark killed a Saturn. Yeah. Well, no, I had that drive worked on before. So it's, it's failed again. So something's up with that thing, but. Gotcha.

[00:58:38] Um, why do you think shining the Holy Ark when it comes to like the three shining games on Saturn? I feel like it gets forgotten about. I feel like people talk about fucking shining wisdom more than Holy Ark. I mean, shining wisdom has the, uh, it has a script that people want to talk about because it's, um, upsetting. Uh, it's very upsetting. In terms of the English localization.

[00:59:06] It has a fancy, shiny foil cover. Like it's, it's a working designs joint is what I'm getting at. And I think that there are people that will play it just because it's a working designs release. And I think there are people that will at least be more interested in it because of that. Um, and, uh, because it's just a bit more accessible by way of being a Zelda clone. Um, that's really reductive, but you know what I mean? It's an action adventure game, uh, in the way that, you know, like a, what's the new Topia? I was trying to think. I was like, what's the PC engine one?

[00:59:36] Nobody, nobody knows what that shit is except me. So yeah, it's pretty good though. New Topia too. Yeah. Oh, when those came out on Wii virtual console, ate that shit up. Wii was basically my TurboGrafx-16. Yeah. I think the only thing I ever actually bought on virtual console was, uh, uh, Rondo of Blood. But, uh, yeah, it's between that and then like Shining Force 2, I feel like is held up as like, I feel like for a long time, that was one of the only like Genesis RPGs I heard

[01:00:04] people bring up in conversation of like, you know, people used to be like, the, the, the generic split between Genesis and Super Nintendo is like Genesis is one of the most where the like pick up and play arcade games are. And then Super Nintendo is the longer experiences, the final fantasies and the Zeldas and Metroids and all that. Like, that's not obviously a clean split that actually works, but it's a vague generality. I get, I get it though. I don't typically argue with it when people say that. Sure. It's like using that as a shorthand.

[01:00:33] I see why Shining Force 3 would be, uh, something that you look at as like, oh, it's a follow-up to a thing that I have heard of that has a lot of like, uh, acclaim to its name or whatever. There's a lot of prestige to it to some degree. And also just Shining the Holy Ark is a weird. It's a weird ass name. It's a, it's a weird ass name. It sounds, it's Harvey, the wonder hamster. I'll be the racist dragon shining the Holy Ark.

[01:01:00] Like it sounds like it should just be a noun adjective noun. It's, you know, like. Yeah, it's, it is weird. I guess they wanted the like shining in the darkness, shining the Holy Ark. But it is, but it sounds like you're polishing, uh, the Ark of the Covenant with like a rag. I don't know. Like that's why it was bright enough to melt those Nazis, I guess, at the end of, uh, I mean, it's a shiny Holy Ark. It sounds like a masturbation. I mean, it's shot.

[01:01:29] You're shining your Holy Ark up there. Like it sounds like a fucking joke, right? Like totally. Yeah. It's, it's 100% a weird euphemism. It's like, it's like you hear something that like. You ever, I wish I had an example to pull from now, but you ever just hear like, oh yeah, that was just like a weird slang thing that came up like among troops in World War II. Like they just had some weird shit. Like, yeah, exactly. I want to go behind the bushes and shine the Holy Ark for a minute and keep an eye out for Jerry. Like, what are you doing?

[01:02:01] I specifically don't want Jerry to see me, uh, you know, jerking it. Anyone else? Fine. Right. Just not, not, not the fair mocks. They can't. Yeah. But that's exactly what it sounds like. Right. It's, it's, it's cumbersome shine. You're who's going to like, is any child going to write to Santa? I want shining the Holy Ark. Right. And their parents look at that and be like, what the hell are you talking about? What is it? Is this, it says drugs. Is this like, what?

[01:02:30] Imagine some poor frazzled parent bringing that into some poor frazzled, uh, like seasonal employee at some department store and just like writing down, like, I don't know. Do you know what this is? I think there's, I don't know if my kid has like, there's a gas leak in the house or I need to buy another CO2 monitor while I'm here. You know, it sounds like a cult, right? Like heaven's gate or like, you know, shining the Holy Ark. Absolutely. There's something about it. It's just, yeah.

[01:02:57] Each individual word in that sentence just makes it the rest of it weirder. I feel like it is weird. Yeah. You know, when you put it that way, I guess so. But like, I get why it's like the least talked about of the three Saturn shinings, but also also it looks weird. It does look weird. Like the, the pre-rendered art style that we've been talking about this whole time. Like also I could totally see people bouncing right off that and thinking it looks absolutely hideous. Really?

[01:03:24] I could totally see someone looking at that and having a like cruelty squad response of just being like, this is a deranged looking. I don't know. It's really, it's really strange. I don't know. It's a, it's a very odd art style. It's cute, but yeah, it's cutesy. Well, that's why I read that thing now over two hours ago about like the guy at the, um, the, the, the producer saying, Oh, we wanted to go for this darker silence.

[01:03:51] Like, bro, this just looks like, I mean, I don't think it looks like that at all. Super bright, colorful and kid friendly. I don't know. It's very, that's just what, that's just what video games look like that at that time. Sure. Fine time. Fine time.

[01:04:21] I just think it's very interesting around this time because the landscape of what were popular RPGs was really changing. And it's not just final fantasy seven. It's, it's everything Squaresoft was doing. It's all the CGI and cut scene, heavy drama in general, because like, you know, if you think about like, you know, 96, 97, we're having stuff like shining wisdom, shining a holy arc, or even beyond the beyond or arc, the lad, God forbid.

[01:04:51] And then two years, like two years later, we're having like final fantasy eight or like these things that are just very, very different from that. Yeah. You also have like Pokemon blowing up around now, you know, like there's just a lot happening in different, like, I don't know, branches of the RPG tree. And Pokemon was so what it was that people don't even think of that as an RPG. Like it doesn't even register, you know?

[01:05:20] So it's, it's, it's all very, it's all very strange. And I just think that like, I don't know whether it's like the Moby edge Lord main characters that we were doing, starting to get into at that time. Like that's, I feel like that's what he was trying to talk about when talking about like, but this is, this is not that at all. So yeah, it's, it's just interesting. I guess I didn't really have any further point about that.

[01:05:45] I just think it's just such a rapid change for RPGs at this time that it may be, maybe if shining the Holy arc were on, let's just say that was a PS one game or N64 game, maybe even then it wouldn't have done a, done a ton. I don't know. I think being a first person dungeon RPG kind of limits a little bit of the like grandiosity of scope that square was swinging for around this time. Yeah. Throwing all their money at.

[01:06:13] Whereas I feel like what was happening within Sega was more just trying to continue to refine and build out something that they already had. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying anymore. Well, yeah, because like, I mean, it feels like just thinking about this, the Saturn RPGs feel extremely stodgy in comparison. Like if you think about something like a virtual highlight or even something that has flair,

[01:06:39] like a dragon force doesn't feel the same as like a vandal hearts or I don't know. Like, you know what I mean? Like it doesn't, it doesn't. Or even like a Valkyrie profile or whatever. Like there's. Exactly. Suikoiden, right? Or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's a game that would have been perfectly on Saturn. But yeah, aside from stuff like Grandia, you're not getting a lot of that, or at least not out here.

[01:07:05] There were a lot more of the kind of like, there are a lot more 2D 32 bit RPGs on the Saturn in Japan, but they're not. Yeah. They're not swinging for the production value fences. Yeah. I think maybe the most they ever did probably was Panzer Dragoon Saga. And again, that game is for all the parts of it that are huge and vast and expansive. It's also comparatively small video game. Like there's not that many dungeons. And again, there is one town. Yep.

[01:07:35] And a couple places on the world map to go to. Like it's not what's there is really elaborate and intricate, but it very clearly does not have the just like size and scope and the money behind it that some of the more spectacle oriented stuff was getting into in the literal same year. You know, like it was just, they were going down a very different, uh, everyone else was going down a very different path. I think then the course they were staying.

[01:08:03] Maybe that's probably an oversimplification, but. Well, no, I mean, I think that, that that's true because like, I just think it's also interesting that like all three shining games on Saturn are ostensibly RPGs, but they're three very different, different genres of RPG. Yeah. Yeah. Genres. Yeah. You have a dungeon RPG. You have a top down Zelda like RPG. Then you have your typical strategy RPG and shining force three.

[01:08:32] So you have like three very different things. And I feel like, I feel like the scope of the term RPG and like the mainstream sense had really narrowed at that point. RPG had meant again, I don't want to make everything about final fantasy seven, but I mean like final fantasy was it then whether you, whether you meant six on super Nintendo or seven or whatever. Right? Like, I feel like that was becoming, this is RPG. God damn it.

[01:08:58] So like shining the Holy arc would never be considered in that canon, even though you do largely a lot of the same things. But I think presentationally of the power of the CD ROM was, I feel like just get into a place where, yeah, we were, in other words, we're getting well past the point of like Dragon Quest was computer games on your TV, right? Like now you can play it on your TV.

[01:09:28] Now we're getting, you know, a decade past that and we're getting to somewhere else. Yeah. We've already gone through a generation of, you know, paladins, quests and stuff, act razors. We've had a lot of different, you know, people trying different ideas. And again, it's all stemming back from the same place. If we look at what we think of as being, you know, what you're just talking about is like the predominant idea of what an RPG is in that time.

[01:09:58] Being a thing that stems back from stuff like Dragon Quest, where you have a character walking around a world map and going on a big adventure. But even that then goes back to stuff like wizardry, which then you start from there and drive off in a different direction and you get to shining the holy arc. So it's, yeah. It's all connected, man. You just got to follow the money. Follow the map. You have all the fucking red line to draw this and that on your court.

[01:10:27] It's all there in the 97 fall financial report, Hank. Before you get to fiscal 98, slow down. Wake up, sheeple. The mole man didn't want you to have the ram cart. You know, I've never actually like nothing. He had required a ram cart. I don't think I ever actually physically seen one of those on Saturn. Oh, your friend that had one back in the day.

[01:10:55] I was like, do you mean my bad Dale Gribble impression that sounds more like a bad Jack Nicholson? Or do you mean Hank Hill? Do you mean Dell? Okay. Do you mean Bernie Stoller? Oh, God. Bernie Stoller. Don't even get me started. I only saw about them in fucking again, like magazines love to like show like stuff you can't have. Yeah. Yeah. Here's all the cool stuff.

[01:11:22] Here's here's mischief makers or UK, UK troublemakers. And and it costs 110 US dollars because you need this like fucking thing to play it on your N64. It's like, okay, sure. Right. Right. So but yeah, those are the only times I saw the this if you buy X-Men versus Street Fighter for Saturn for $90, you will give you a free ram cart or something. So the background animates properly. Yes. Oh, Lord.

[01:11:51] The PS1 versions of those games are so sad, dude. They make me so upset. I understand they're kind of like different games because they have to be. But like, oh, it sounds like you should buy the ram for a system that is literally no one's going out the door here. Just jam it in there. Just jam a Saturday card in the back of your PlayStation. We should probably wrap this up. Nah, we need to we need to hit the three hour mark, baby. We are almost there. I mean, we might as well. All right.

[01:12:20] Like this is already going to be two episodes. I'm going to have to record something after this and say, hey, guys, sorry. We rambled a lot. Yeah. So here's part two. Now, this is great. I'm really glad to have finally done this. I'm glad this is easily the longest I've ever recorded a single anything. And I'm glad it was about this. So thank you. Thank you. Do you have any more old man questions for me before I leave about the Saturn? Did you get them all out of your system?

[01:12:50] Mostly. I think like just like one day I'll just sit you down for like an overview and just be like, well, just like get like a read on the situation from someone who is at the age of the like target demo at the time, you know, because you would have been what? Like 13, 14 year old boy in 14. Right. Like that's you are exactly who they're trying to sell that thing to. Exactly. Yeah. A hundred percent. Whereas I would have been, you know, a toddler basically. So it was appealing on the surface. I think what really hurt it for me and look, I don't think I was ever seriously considering a Saturn.

[01:13:20] I knew in 60, excuse me, Nintendo ultra 64 was around the corner and I knew I was, I was very interested in PS one. I knew I kind of was like, I was looking at stuff like jumping flash and it's like, oh, Tekken looks really cool on here. I don't like Tekken, but that looks that that's a really good, like, look at what this thing is doing. Right. I think, and people don't talk about this enough. I think that initial version of virtue fighter on Saturn really hurt it.

[01:13:48] I think if they had had like a really competent version of virtue fighter looking really good on Saturn from the get go and like had that at kiosk and stuff, I think that really would have brought shit home because at that time, obviously I don't need to tell you how groundbreaking model one was right. Right. So to have that at home, like very competently would have been incredible. That would have turned my head at least and been like, oh my God, like, but it didn't

[01:14:17] look good at all. And I've already kind of shit on some other Saturn ports of the time arcade ports, but honestly, like Sega rally is like serviceable enough. Daytona USA is a pop in nightmare and it's just, I don't know. Yeah. Daytona and rally both got fixed later with different releases, but it's, yeah, it's not. And that's what happened with virtue fighter as well with virtue fighter. Sega just didn't give themselves the fucking time, dude.

[01:14:43] I kind of like the, uh, at least the faces and VF one, uh, the Saturn port more than the weird face textures and remakes, I think, but I don't know. They're goofier in a way that works for me. I don't know, but I also don't have a, you know, that built in experience with the arcade original necessarily. So, or, you know, the, was it the Genesis port to VF two? It was like weirdly good. Yeah. It actually plays. Okay. Yeah.

[01:15:11] It's on, I played it on one of the mini consoles. I think it may be on the first one and I played that shit and it was like, oh, this is weird and 2d. And, but like, it actually kind of feels like virtue fighter, believe it or not. It's, it's weird. It's on a single plane, but honestly, at that time, the 3d was kind of just for show anyway. So you didn't do a whole lot of like sidestead until like, we got like Toshinden where you're really like dive and then like, you know, like doing weird shit.

[01:15:38] But until then, like, it's kind of just for show. Toshinden. Now that's a game with a weird Saturn port. Oh, I've never played that. But we, a couple of years ago here on fine time, we did like a fighting game anime Christmas. And one of them was the Toshinden OV where you got to see Sophia's tits. It was, it was great. But, um, but like, yeah, we were, um, uh, Steve was, there's a very Nintendo man. He had never played Toshinden before.

[01:16:04] So I insisted that he did before we did the, before we watched OV, you got to play it for a little bit just to get the taste of the, of the day. And he was like, this is something, this fucking weird. Like it's such a weird game. Yeah. But do you ever, you ever just like meet someone that has a really like oddly specific, uh, weird game that like, do you remember later and you're like, why did that person have that? Like I discovered years later, uh, that like, I only knew of guilty gear because a friend

[01:16:33] of mine had the GBA game back in the day. And I was like, what is this? Yeah. But no, uh, at some point years and years ago now, like close to a decade ago, um, I was, uh, messing around in the first Toshinden with a friend. And, uh, when the, uh, like start screen came up or whatever, my wife was like thrown off and then she went and like dug through some boxes. She had the Game Boy port of Toshinden. Still does. But she was like, oh yeah, I know that game. What? Yep. It's for Game Boy. I didn't even know it had a Game Boy port at all. And she was just like, oh yeah, I played Tony.

[01:17:03] I said, get here, check this out. Yeah. It was a super deformed, like sprite. Yeah. The whole, the whole bit. Yeah. It was, it was weird. That's my Toshinden. We were into that Virtua Fighter kids. Like we, I don't know why we did that so often back then. I guess it was the thing. That was a Neo Geo pocket fighting games of really cute sprites too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was just, it was, it was a lot. Okay. Fine. We can stop talking about the goddamn Saturn. Jeez. Finally. Finally.

[01:17:33] Yuck. This was great. Thanks for doing this with me. Get out of here. I, I, I don't know, man. Uh, I, I just lost another game dev job along with thousands and thousands of other people. So, uh, if you need a, a visual designer or a higher music composer, uh, Elmore.design. I'm going to, you know what? I'm going to sell you. I'm going to sell you right now. I'm going to, I'm going to outro the show with one of your jams you made for the show.

[01:18:02] If you've listened to the show for, if any regularity folks, you've heard his music probably at least every big deal. I usually use at least one of them. Uh, you, you've heard me request a lot of nut tightening. Uh, I assume by this point, uh, some shower music. Yes. Let me tighten your nuts. Um, well, well, you're going to, you're going to sing the shower song live for us. I don't remember what else I said. What's a, yeah, I don't know.

[01:18:31] Uh, we, yeah, like I said earlier, um, Dre and I relaunched an old, uh, podcast with, uh, Adam Ismail. Uh, called the silent discographer, uh, which is a really stupid halo joke, but, um, it's, we go through a band, uh, discographies album by album. We've been working our way through R.E.M., uh, Dre's favorite band and the band that, uh, Adam and I both love dearly as well.

[01:18:56] And it has, um, uh, been a weirdly in-depth endeavor that has turned into a brain boiling obsession, but, uh, it's been a lot of fun. And that is finally starting to go live. So go find that. Find Time. Find Time may be a New Order song, but my heart is definitely R.E.M. for sure. Indeed. And, uh, it's been fun doing that show with you, talking to R.E.M.'s, all the R.E.M.'s. We're about, as of this recording, we're about to get into the 90s now, finally. Yeah, living in some amount of time. Yeah, it's going to be something.

[01:19:26] So, um, definitely check that out. All the links to all this bullshit will be in the description of this podcast, plus our links to all of our Find Time stuff also in the description of this podcast. Other than that, we're going to get out of here. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Bye. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.