BioShock Infinite | The Big Daddies

[00:00:00] Hello everyone, Andre off the top here to say a few things first. First of all, this episode is part 3 of a 3 part series on the Bioshock Trilogy. If you haven't heard the first two episodes where we talk about Bioshock and Bioshock 2, check the description of this podcast to find direct links to those. But beware, because those episodes, as well as this one on Bioshock Infinite, will contain full spoilers for the game, up to and including the ending. We are not holding back at all, so this is your one and only chance

[00:00:29] to turn off this episode right now if you don't want to be spoiled on Bioshock Infinite, as well as parts of Bioshock or Bioshock 2. Secondly, as most people might know, Bioshock Infinite is a game that attempts to deal with racism and segregation, and the language used in the game reflects the way those people are treated. This means that not only are we going to discuss the racism presented to us in detail, there will also be discussion of racial slurs,

[00:00:56] including me using my one privilege as a black man to discuss a couple of these slurs that other people who are not black might not be able to say out loud. You get what I'm trying to say? So if that doesn't sound like your thing, this episode might not be for you, and that's fine. I completely understand that. But we hope you stick around, because it's going to be a great discussion. Okay, that's it. Thanks for joining us, and let's start the show. This is your Mind on 5 Time.

[00:01:43] Hello, party people. Hello, Bioshock people. Hello, infinite people. It's your boy, Dre. I am here with the big daddy, my fellow big daddy, Thrak. I'm the biggest daddy. He's the biggest daddy of the land. Motherfuckers. That's my big daddy song. That does remind me of a particular female experience I had, but I won't go there.

[00:02:11] Okay. Tell me off the air later. I want to hear about this. I'll tell you off the air. It's hilarious. Man, we've... Okay. We, I can't wait for that. Maybe we should just stop the show now. Let's just stop right now, and you just tell me, let's get out of here. Fuck Bioshock Infinite. I have to go in the shower. It's the only way I can tell you on camera. Wow, okay. All right. Thanks, everybody. At gunpoint. Put me in the fucking shower. At dickpoint.

[00:02:41] I didn't say which gun. Okay. You're unspecified. Thanks, everyone who's taken this Bioshock journey with us. We are finally at Bioshock Infinite, and oh, baby. Oh, baby. Oh, baby. A game that, like, when it came out, it was in a time where I was kind of, like, not playing as many video games, because I was more focused on, like, you know, girls and music and all this other stuff, right? So gaming kind of fell into the background. I was still playing stuff here and there.

[00:03:10] But I remember when this game came out, it was a big, big, big, big deal. Like, this and GTA V, because they both came out in 2013, was, like, was all the rage. And then a friend of mine was playing Black Flag as well, because I think that was the same year. So those are the games I remember from that year. And I never got around to playing it until we played it for this. Okay. Me too. I've never played it before. And I know the production of this game had a lot of big delays.

[00:03:39] I feel like they meant this to be, quote unquote, Bioshock 2. And it just didn't work out that way. I think it was, if I remember correctly, it was in development. Yeah, it did start development kind of, like, after 1. Because they had that kind of convinced Ken Levine to even make a sequel to Bioshock in general.

[00:04:02] But I guess after a while, he sort of, like, he had to think about it and was like, oh, if I'm going to do another one, I should do something, like, different with it. So, like, I think the development started in, like, 08 on this guy. Yeah. And yeah, and it went through a lot of different variations. There was a demo of it, I believe it was, like, in 2011 or something, that was, like, considerably different from what we got. And you can, there's a lot of detail that I won't go into about that.

[00:04:31] You can kind of look into it yourself. Like, it could be really its own sort of thing. But yeah, like, Infinite was definitely meant to be, you know, more of a sequel in scope, I think. More than just being like, oh, we're going to do the Rapture stuff again. Like, it's going in a very, very different direction, but in a way that is still Bioshock. Yeah, I don't know. Well, see, one of the things I had heard about this game was some people were like, they liked it, but they didn't think it was a Bioshock game. It's not.

[00:05:00] I don't think so. At first, maybe, but I think the further in you get to the game, the more it feels like Bioshock. At least in my opinion. You know, like, you can tell it's still the same team. I never felt Bioshock-y from this game, personally. You know, yeah, I get it. It's not a sequel to Bioshock 2, nor is, I don't know. I don't know why this is called Bioshock Infinite. They probably could have just called it something else. Well, think about it like this.

[00:05:27] They both take place in these societies that have separated themselves from, like, America, right? And are being led by these weird, agmatic leaders. And there's a lot more going on under the surface than you realize. But with Infinite, it's, like, with Bioshock 1, you're there, like, after the shit has gone down. With Infinite, you're there, like, right when the shit goes down, right?

[00:05:53] But it feels like the story and the setup and everything is very, very similar. You know, both of them are kind of exploring different sort of, like, ideologies, like world ideologies. But from, like, you know, different perspectives. Like, Infinite does a lot more out there things with what it's trying to say than Bioshock 1. That's me being nice about it. But, but in some ways, I think it hits, like, like pretty well.

[00:06:21] Like, you, you may disagree with me with this, but, like, spending some time and thinking about it, Infinite might be my favorite one in the series. At the, at the very, at the very least, I think the gameplay is the best of the three. Absolutely. I love how this game plays. Like, it's, it's just a standard shooter at this point. But it feels so good to play this game. It's a fucking fantastic gameplay wise. So basically, that's my, this is my overall take. It's obviously a pretty ambitious game.

[00:06:51] And the gameplay is pretty unparalleled. It's way better than the first two. But it's paired with a story and characters that are clearly written by people who want to say something, but are too, either too afraid to say it or don't know how to say it. And I'm not going to mince words here. I think Bioshock Infinite might be one of the most cowardly games ever made in that regard. Cowardly.

[00:07:20] I think if you look at the writing of one and Infinite in particular, I think Ken Levine comes off as a fence sitter. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, that just might be his, like, legit opinion, which is fine. But I think Infinite, for me, it had a lot of shock value at the start.

[00:07:45] And then at a certain point, as you're still going, like in the middle, it kind of dips and it feels like it tries to both sides certain things. I think it does. We'll get there. And I remember playing, I'm thinking, hmm, that's not, I don't think that's a good look. But it kind of picks up near the end, and I like what it does with the ending. Yeah, I think it goes. Because it's something completely different. I think it goes off the rails for me there.

[00:08:13] And another game from 2013 that everybody loves that I don't is The Last of Us. Another game that I think is, like, just offensive. See, that's why you and Chris get along so well, because he hates Last of Us 1, too. But it's the same thing. I love the gameplay of Last of Us. I think Bioshock Infinite is better gameplay, but I really do like the gameplay a lot of The Last of Us. But boy, howdy, those people. Do you prefer 2? I never played 2. Okay.

[00:08:43] Then I won't say anything. Okay, yeah. But yeah, that's basically where I'm coming from with this, or where we're both coming from with this. So that's a good starting point on this. What did you know about this beforehand? I think this is very important, because obviously this game is pretty controversial. It's one of the most polarizing games ever. Yes. Some people love it. But in my experience, most people I know hate it. So... It's a bit of a mixed bag for me.

[00:09:10] Like, I know people who adore this game, and other people, yeah, who are like, fuck that game. So I've somehow managed to avoid all the discourse about it. Me too. I didn't even know it tackled racism until like two months ago. I swear to God, I didn't even know. So like... Honestly, I didn't know either. But like, my head is so buried in the sand with this kind of stuff. Like, I have a tendency of, I'll avoid spoilers for a game until I start actually playing the game.

[00:09:37] And then when I play the game, when I'm not playing the game, I'm like reading things about it. And then sometimes I'll accidentally spoil things for myself. Which is like something stupid that I do. But like, if I'm not playing the game, I'm just like, I don't give a shit. And I avoid... Like, I avoided everything that happened in Mass Effect until I finally played it all the way through like two years ago. Like, I was blind to the whole thing. I was like, why do people hate like three? What happened? And now I've experienced the entirety of Mass Effect. So I know. And I have my own opinion on the Mass Effect 3.

[00:10:07] Okay. It's perfectly fine. But yeah, like Infinite... Yeah, it was one of those games that like it has like sort of that polarizing thing. And that always intrigues me when, you know, people... Some people really like something or they really hate something. Especially like a piece of like art. You know? Because with all three Bioshock games, particularly one in Infinite, if you look at their Wikipedia pages, one of the things they always get praised for is they're considered one of the first video games as an art form kind of. Which...

[00:10:36] Please, get out of here. I mean, I don't want to... I mean, yes, video games are art. But like, I feel like the whole video games being art is on like a spectrum. Like some games are more artful than others, you know? Okay. But I think one in Infinite... I mean, they can be art in that they handle sort of like storytelling and are trying to do sort of like different things. And it's like, yeah, sure. But like playing this game...

[00:11:04] I didn't get the whole like, oh, this game is a piece of art the same way I would play like Journey or Cocoon, you know? Yeah, but that's the problem. I think people think of art as video games as art is so fucking narrow. Because if anyone's going to tell me that Pac-Man isn't art, they can fuck off. Pac-Man is fucking art, man. That game is... Yeah. That game is... Like, the visual language of that game is iconic for a reason, right? It is.

[00:11:30] So like, if someone's going to tell me, oh, we need to have this like cinematic like fucking thing for it to be art. Yeah. But like, as I've always said, like it's on a spectrum and I think like it depends on what the intention behind the game is. Like, yes, video games are art, but are you going to sit here and say like, oh, Madden 25 was made as like a piece of art, man? Of course not. No, it's like it's a commercial product. And some video games were made more to be commercial consumable products than say interactive pieces of art. You know what I mean?

[00:11:58] At the end of the day, they all are that. But, you know, certain games come off as more like pieces of art than others. That's all I'm going to say. Okay. So here's how I want to do this because I feel like we want to talk about pretty much everything that happens in this game. There's a lot. Yeah. So here's basically what I want to do.

[00:12:27] I wrote my notes in essentially chronological order because I sketched them out as I was playing the game. So how about I just kind of go through and you can interrupt me at any fucking time you want, which will obviously be a lot because there's a lot to go through. And we can just kind of go through the game almost like how if anyone here on fine time, if any fine time listener listens to us do movies and we kind of just kind of go through the movie events and then talk about other stuff in between. Kind of like that, basically. That's fine. But now for a video game, right?

[00:12:55] I think that's perfectly fine because I will say I love how this game starts. Me too. Hell of an intro. It has one of the best like intro sequences I think in any game I've ever played. Genuinely. Let me paint the picture for the audience then because it's like you go, you're on this boat, you get dropped off at this lighthouse, you ring the bells on top of this lighthouse.

[00:13:18] The entire sky starts to pulse red, complete with like these red god rays, like Satan himself is coming down from heaven or something. Like if you think about it, it's the setup with the lighthouse is very similar to one. Yes. Because in both cases, you're just kind of out in the middle of nowhere and you just see this random ass lighthouse and you go into it and you're like, you know, what the hell's going on?

[00:13:42] But this game makes it a lot more intriguing because it does more of like the almost like the the Hamsel and Grampsal thing where it just kind of gives you these little pieces before. Yeah, you get to the top and like the sky's going red. Yeah. And you're like, what the fuck is this? You hear that? And they're like horn. The foghorn. That very loud. Yeah.

[00:13:59] And this begets a chair that you sit in and that you immediately get automatically strapped into and then you're launched into the air into the sky utopia that models itself after every cliche in the book. Right. All the all the all the eight.

[00:14:16] But before we get to that, I think we need to talk a little bit about the protagonist, Mr. Booker DeWitt, because you can tell this time they instead of going the silent protagonist route like they had been doing, they're like, oh, we can afford Troy Baker. So we're going to have Troy Baker voice the main character and have him talk a lot. I feel like the only reason they got Troy Baker was just because he was like, you know, like hot commodity at the time. Like, I think he does a fine job.

[00:14:46] Kind of. But like, I guess. But as we'll find later in the game, you're not the main character. You're not the main character. Also, he stands for nothing and I hate him. But yeah. So anyway, we get up to the sky utopia that every cliche in the book angels deem all this all this all these statues all that you get what's into what is a looks like a ultimate church up in the sky. Right. Right.

[00:15:16] You hear these you hear these organs and it's like it goes off the rails immediately. Right. You're you're already like doing some crazy shit. I'm like, oh, I'm with this. I like this. It was straight out of a it was straight out of a fever dream. I was like, what the fuck am I in for? And I thought even at this point, even if this game sucks, it's going to be fun. There's going to be something here for me. And I was correct. Like this whole time, like I remember when I boot up the game, I'm like, all right, let's see, you know what this fuckers about. Right.

[00:15:45] And then I'm doing the lighthouse stuff and I'm like, OK, yeah, this is whatever. And then, you know, when you go into the thing and shoot up, it's like, oh, yeah, we're going to Columbia. It's like similar to one when you get into the bathysphere and you see the like rapture and everything. It's a similar thing. Yeah. But infinite goes. It takes a left turn like right after that. Yeah. You land in that church where there's like all the candles and the water and all of like the almost like kind of druid type people that are like not even really paying attention to you.

[00:16:15] And I'm just like, what the fuck is this, man? And you're seeing all this crazy religious iconography and it's it's making little hints at things. But at this point, if it's your first time playing, you don't really catch on any of that. So you just keep going. And like, you know, and Troy Baker's talking, whatever. And then you cut to where they're having sort of like a seance almost. And then this guy, he just sees you and he's like, oh, we need to like baptize you or whatever.

[00:16:42] And then you get fucking baptized like there. And I'm like, what the fuck? And then and then you come out of that into like the main courtyard of Columbia. And like you're met with those statues of I believe it's Washington, Jefferson and Franklin. And and then you start like walking around and you see like people like talking and kemesmerating and everything. And it's it's all in the clouds. And this is like early 20th century. So it takes place in 1912, I believe. 1912. Yeah.

[00:17:12] Yeah. So it has all of that early 20th century thing about it. And it's yeah, it feels like a fever dream because you're walking around. You're probably like me, like looking at every little thing and be like, what the fuck is it? Like it was so weird, you know, because rapture, when you get to rapture, it's completely destroyed. And you're just sort of like piecing it together as you go. But like imagine dropping into rapture as it's like hustling and bustling. Right. You probably have a different vibe to it.

[00:17:41] And I think it was smart of them to put you into Columbia as it's like, you know, kind of at its peak before things start getting really bad. And I think that change of scenery was very necessary to obviously you don't want to. You can't do rapture again. You just can't. Okay. Like we we already did that twice. And the second time around, it wasn't as good. It's still good, but not as good. You can't do that a third time. Right. Until the very end. And so then I ain't the fuck. No, no, no, no. I ain't shushing nothing.

[00:18:10] If you haven't even played this game, I already warned them up front. Okay. Nah. Well, I'm just saying we'll get we'll get into it later. Of course. I'm just saying that like the change of scenery was really necessary. You know, I again, I didn't mind revisiting rapture in Bioshock 2, even though it was basically like the first game. But again, it's like you said, it's not destroyed yet. It's it's hustling and bustling. And it felt overwhelming in a good way.

[00:18:35] Going out in the city, you're being inundated with like all these bizarrely cultish religious quotes and imagery. It's kind of creepy, obviously. And it's all based on like American politics as well. Yes. And there's like a small parade that holds up the bridge through town. You know what I mean? You're seeing them go by and the floats have people depicted in them. Like the the the paintings almost look like they're straight out of like a Jehovah's Witness like pamphlet.

[00:19:02] And I don't and I don't know if you caught this, but in the early bit, there's like that little barbershop quartet singing and they're singing a very particular. Do you know the song they're singing? I didn't catch it. It's God Only Knows by the Beach Boys. Oh, and and and I remember I was saying to somebody I'm like, that is weird. They're they're singing that song in particular. And somebody said that song, those lyrics are important to the story. I'm my Beach Boys knowledge is really shitty.

[00:19:29] So I is very no I so I wouldn't have caught that. But no, I didn't. It's a very good it's a very good song. It is well worth your time. But yeah, like you get you get into the carnival game section, right? There's all these barkers and sounds of coin and people talking. And again, it's overwhelming in a great way. Yes. The sound design in this game is actually fucking fantastic. Oh, yeah. And I love I love the art style, too.

[00:19:53] Like it's yeah, it's like it's very colorful and you can tell they're like not going for photo realism. They're kind of allowing this sort of like early 20th century type of like animation and arts. So that's almost like Art Deco ish, which is similar to like Bioshock one. But this is it feels the characters here are a little bit more exaggerated just in terms of like, you know, it's fiction. They don't have to look, you know, like realistic.

[00:20:19] They more look like perfect representations of characters, which I think also was another intentional move. And you just sort of take in this aesthetic the whole time. And I remember thinking to myself and I didn't realize it would play into port. So later, I remember looking around, I was thinking there's a lot of fucking white people around here. Yeah, I mean, look, I had the same thought about the first two games, right? So when Grace Holloway appeared in Bioshock 2, I was like, whoa, OK.

[00:20:48] And then they kind of did something weird with it and did not explain themselves. That's the entirety of Bioshock Infinite. Oh, so like I didn't realize that Grace Holloway moment would be foreboding for an entire game to come. By the way, I've never seen the technique of God raised you so literally before. Like they literally like the blinding white light in this game is like really cool. Go big or go home, I guess.

[00:21:15] Well, it's very like angelic and it's meant to sort of because you're in the sky. So in a way, it almost represents this sort of like utopian like heaven type of society for a specific type of person, you know, because like rapture, like, you know, hidden underground. It's sort of like you're under the sea. It's sort of meant to evoke sort of like, you know, sort of like dark undercover kind of shit that's going on because there's a lot of that going on in one and two. Right. But here it's like, no, this is like up in the sky.

[00:21:44] Like this is this is the dream, man. You know, just floating just floating on a fucking cloud, you know, playing playing a fucking like like like throwing the ball at the bottles shit. You know what I mean? You know, and it's just like walking through it was very like uncomfortable. But I think that was the idea because you're just like this is like some like you're going through and you're like something is wrong.

[00:22:12] Like this does this doesn't feel right because the only reason you're going up there is because you were sort of forced as you know, as as has been sort of described to you like you have to go save some young woman named Elizabeth. You know, that's all really, you know. And so you go up there and you're like, oh, I got to find Elizabeth.

[00:22:32] And to be fair, it is a little while till you meet her, which I think is good because it allows you to sort of soak in this like fantastic world that they've made with Columbia, which I don't know if I prefer it to Rapture. But I think both like both environments really are sort of the the main focus of the game, like at least like in Bioshock one and two Rapture feels like the main character and everything that's going on with it. Whereas in Infinite, Columbia sort of starts as like a main character.

[00:23:02] But as it goes on, it becomes more about like Elizabeth and Booker and sort of that whole situation that's going on. Right. I agree with that for sure. But I think that's why I was pretty drawn into Columbia from the outset. I like the weird turn of the century, turn of the 20th century. I mean, American motif here with the weird flags. Right. They're not it's not the colonial flag, but it's also not like the American flag we have now.

[00:23:31] So it's also it's it's just kind of like what the hell is this? Obviously, it's not the quote unquote real 1912. Right. So they can do whatever the fuck they want. It's just that like, you know, it's trying to be a mixture of like the American flag, the like that. Yeah. Sort of like the 13 colonies flag. Yeah. Like maybe hinting a subtle hint at the stars and bars. Just a hint.

[00:23:57] It's in a way it feels like it's trying to mix all the different sort of styles of American flags that have been around from the beginning to 1912. I'm sure someone thought they were doing something. But, you know. But yeah, you know, I think it's interesting that like, you know, we're talking about Americana, like America's past. And we get that in Rapture from all the Art Deco and like all that kind of stuff. And now in Columbia, we get a completely different shade of that. Maybe that's the most Bioshock thing about it. You know?

[00:24:27] Yeah, for sure. I would say. So I mentioned when we talked about Bioshock 2, I really miss the immersive scripted stuff. I don't miss that shit anymore in Bioshock Infinite because baby, let me tell you, they pour it on. And quite frankly, it is a masterclass in how to do something like really linear with hardly any gameplay, but also make the player feel like they're part of something. That's the thing I keep coming back to with Bioshock.

[00:24:56] And again, that's something every developer says they're trying to do in the AAA space. Bioshock Infinite actually fucking does it. In a weird way, I think this improves upon one with having those sort of interactive cinematic experiences where there are times where it does like take the control away from the player a little bit. But it never changes camera angles or anything. You're still there, right? So you're always invested in what is going on and you're always playing the game from Booker's perspective.

[00:25:26] So you get to see how everything plays out in his eyes. Even if the game takes the control away from you for a second. To have Elizabeth look at you like this fucking close to the camera or whatever. No, that is really excellent about this game. And I'm glad they brought that back in spades. Okay, let's just get to it. Let's get right to it, okay? The first part of the game here, you go to that raffle drawing.

[00:25:56] This girl comes out on stage to present the drawing bucket to the MC. And he says, well, isn't this the prettiest white girl in town? Or something like that. And I'm like, bro, what? And I'm like, why did he say white? Why did he say white? And it's quickly revealed that your quote unquote prize for winning this raffle is that you get to throw a baseball at this interracial couple. This white dude and this black lady.

[00:26:23] And the MC was like, oh, we got a shy one here. Or do you just take your coffee black? I mean, that was kind of funny. I'm not going to lie. It was kind of funny. I laughed. I did. Yeah, like when I first saw this, my first thought was like, oh, why is this black guy up here? What did he do? And then they were starting to I'm like, oh, god damn it. And then the game gives you the choice. Yeah.

[00:26:48] It's either throw the baseball at him or throw the baseball at the dude at like the presenter or whatever. I chose to throw the baseball at the presenter. I just couldn't in my heart throw it at the guy. I couldn't do it. I'm just like this. No, I don't like this. And then that's like immediately shit fucking goes haywire. Yes. Like right at that point. Yeah. Then you start shooting. You start shooting. But OK, but before we get to the action, we can talk about that in a second. I need to ask you this at this interval.

[00:27:18] This is really important to me anyway. How do you think the common person receives this game at the time in 2013? Because we talked about in the first Bioshock, we talked about how I was surprised in retrospect that these games were mainstream hits. You know? Yes. And so how do you think John Q. Gamer, who plays Gears of War in Halo or COD or whatever, receives this? Do they think it's just a joke and they laugh at the prettiest white girl thing?

[00:27:48] Do you think they're like, well, that was fucking racist and they just keep it moving? Right. Or maybe none of this. Maybe it doesn't matter. And they're just there for like shooty bang bang. Let me shoot something. They don't really care what's happening. And I'm not trying to paint every quote unquote casual gamer stupid. I'm just wondering like how like you understand what I mean, right? I just can't believe something like this was so like, how was, how do you think this was received by someone like that? I, I think it comes down to sort of the political climate in America at the time.

[00:28:18] You know, this was 2013. This was like the first year of Obama's second term. Right. And if you think about it, at least my view of it at the time, I was only like 19. So your opinion may be a little different is that it felt like politics back then wasn't as say heated as it is now. And that there was some form of stability. Right.

[00:28:40] And so things weren't always viewed in this like heavy sort of politicized way that things seem to be now, which really started in 2016. Really. We're like, you know, people tend to view just about every piece of media and entertainment now from a political spectrum, be it performative or not. Right. I think that's a whole nother discussion. So I think maybe at the time people maybe didn't view it so strongly as maybe some people would now. I mean, it definitely does cause controversy.

[00:29:10] Of course. Of certain things. It's just like, it's pretty blatant about it right at the start. And it's like, you can't ignore that. Really? Yeah. I would just imagine. Because I knew like weird right wing people in high school. So, you know, I like I knew people who fucking watch Glenn Beck in high school. Oh, my God. What's wrong with you? You fucking weirdo. See, I was naive, right? Because as you know, I grew up in San Diego, you know, so growing up in Southern California, you're not I'm not getting I'm not meeting people like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:38] Like I like I live in a blue county of what was once a swing state, but is now like a light red state. Yeah. But I'm in a blue county. So I see a little bit of a little bit of everything, you know? And as I was I was actually saying to somebody about this earlier, being a cisgendered white male, I'm able to sort of be a political chameleon.

[00:30:00] I can kind of blend in to like a lot of different political ideologies and like kind of see all different kinds of from the aisle stuff because I'm kind of viewed as safe. You sure are. You know what I mean? Yep. You know, without people really knowing my opinions, which some certain people shouldn't ask me. Yeah. Like for sure. But yeah, that is that is interesting. I'm glad you will not. I don't know if it's agree or disagree thing, but I think I think I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from on that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:29] And this is coming from a guy who in 2012 was in a U.S. government class and my teacher made us watch every debate. And so like we would watch them in class and like take notes and all this stuff. So I was pretty like well researched on the 2012 election because like it was kind of part of like my schoolwork. So I knew quite a bit about like the Obama Romney stuff and like I like Citizens United and all the stuff that was going on at that time. So like I was pretty well aware.

[00:31:00] But like but like at least from my vantage point, like the people around me again, it was just like, you know, just coming out of high school kind of thing. Right. Like most people really didn't talk politics. You know, it was more just, you know, we were talking about like video games and other kind of bullshit like that. Of course. You know, and it felt like talking about politics wasn't such a a walking on eggshells sort of a thing. It wasn't. But also today, the stakes are just higher.

[00:31:28] I mean, that's just they are which but you know, that's a whole. Yeah, that's a whole thing. But that's the I think that's why people are more like her about it because it matters more now than it maybe has been.

[00:31:39] But let's talk shooty bang bang because this this game Bioshock Infinite is fucking fantastic.

[00:32:02] Now, I want to start with this comparison because this is something I never compare any other game to, mostly because I think this game is overrated as hell. But I got to say it here. The combat in Bioshock Infinite feels like gold and I but good, doesn't it? Am I crazy? Am I am I am I off base with that? They feel different to me. Okay. I felt it felt like gold.

[00:32:29] It felt like the thing I always felt people talk about golden eye being is that but I feel like Bioshock Infinite is actually that. Sure, sure. Like, honestly, when I was playing it, the gameplay like the shooting and all that, it felt closer to like the COD games of the time. You know, like it's not it's like it's not the same like control scheme because there are certain things that are different.

[00:32:49] But it felt like they were trying to make the the the actual gameplay closer to Call of Duty because I was sort of like at that point, that was the shoot that was like the the first person shooter. Right. So if in a way, it feels like it's trying to be something a little closer to that while still trying to maintain some of the Bioshock stuff with like the the they're not plasmids. They're called something else in this game. But oh, yeah, I forget. They're plasmids. It doesn't matter. Who fucking cares? Does not matter.

[00:33:17] But but it definitely made the action scenes a lot more fun because not only do you have the nice shooty shooty stuff, you have that really cool like melee weapon that can like fucking rip people's heads off. Oh, yeah, that's incredible. I love that. And you can attach it to like rails so you could do some like kind of like acrobatic kind of aerial combat here and there, which is really cool. So I feel like it's very underutilized. They don't really nearly as they could have used it a lot more. I feel like they used it plenty. Really?

[00:33:46] I can't believe I can't believe you feel like I would have liked maybe a couple more variations on it. OK, just just just just a me thing. All right. And the plasmids, they don't feel as useful here. No. In the other games, like the one I really liked is when you could like take over like like like machines or whatever. You can make them like your allies. Yeah, like that was that was always cool. It's kind of like the possessed big daddy kind of thing. But you still get like your electricity, your telekinesis, your fire and all that stuff.

[00:34:13] They try to do slightly different things where it's like, oh, you can like hold it to lay like a trap for enemies so that they could do, which was cool. And I liked laying traps. You know, it it felt like all the changes were meant to make the gameplay like more fast paced and more exciting. And I think it does handle that a lot better. That's what it is, too. Yeah, you're right. The pacing and it feels exciting and they're much more set PC like the battles.

[00:34:40] And it's and I think that's good in this case, because this is game that's you're not exploring around anymore. And Bioshock 2 kind of has less exploration, which I think it ultimately was good. But this really doesn't have any. This is a straightforward. This is a triple A ass triple A game. You are going forward. Yeah, it is a hallway. You're going forward. And again, and that's the thing I always say about these kind of games. It's fine if you make the gameplay compelling. I don't think Call of Duty is like fun to play personally. So I just don't get into those campaigns.

[00:35:08] Certain games are funner than others, I think. Yeah, this Bioshock Infinite is just man. It is just balls to the wall. It feels great. It's snappy. That's something you cannot say about the first two games. This feels snappy. It is very snappy. I agree. Yeah. And I like that, again, you don't have the weapon wheel anymore. You just can pick up. You can have two weapons, almost like a Halo or other games that do that, where you can just kind of swap out a weapon. And that's fine. I think that's good.

[00:35:37] That's another reason why it doesn't feel very Bioshock-y to me because I'm used to all the – there's no weapon wheel and a bunch of types of ammo and shit. You just – here are the two weapons you want to use. But what's interesting is that you can collect ammo for every weapon. And you just always have it with you. So, like, when you're swapping between all the – because I found myself constantly having to swap, like, oh, I'd run out of ammo with this gun. Let me just pick up another gun.

[00:36:01] I found myself doing that a lot because I feel like they don't give you enough ammo for the guns in the first place. And there are, like, the same kind of upgrade – like, there's sort of the same upgrade tree in this as, like, the other games. But I found myself not using it as much because I didn't get enough money. So, I was kind of, like, underpowered for a good chunk of the game. But it's not like it was, like, terribly difficult or anything like that. Right, right. You know, like, if you're pretty good, you can kind of just, like, plow your way through this game as far as, like, the gameplay is concerned.

[00:36:31] But, yeah, I don't know. Maybe having, like, three weapons would have been nice because it was just kind of annoying how it's, like, I would just constantly have to find enemy guns and swap them out all the time. Yeah, but I think they wanted you to do that. I think it's like, okay, I'm out of ammo for this thing. Let me go find a different type of gun. I think that was, like, kind of on purpose in a way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it reminds me a little bit of Breath of the Wild with the weapon durability. Okay. But I think that's handled worse.

[00:37:02] Like, that's always been kind of a point of contention in Breath of the Wild about the weapon durability. And it's, eh, I've had issues with it. It's better in Tears of the Kingdom because of some stuff. But ultimately, it kind of feels like the same thing. I'm one of those people who don't mind it. But, you know, I understand. I just, I would just, I always would have preferred, like, if the weapon durability system is fine. But I would have liked to say, like, there was, like, more levels to the durability. Where it's, like, after a while, it's like, oh, it's a damaged weapon.

[00:37:31] You could still use it, you know, kind of a thing. And then there's maybe, like, blacksmiths where you could, like, spend rupees to, like, say you find a weapon you really like. And then you'd want to spend money to, like, keep it repaired and all that stuff. I think that should have been an option. That should have been an option. Also, it gives, because, like, in, especially in Tears of the Kingdom, I have no idea what the fuck to spend rupees on. So, like, I mean, that would have been, like, one thing I definitely would have done. I played, like, 30 minutes of Tears of the Kingdom and went, I don't want to do this. I understand. No, I love Tears of the Kingdom.

[00:37:59] I like Tears of the Kingdom more than Breath of the Wild, personally. I put, like, 90 hours in the Breath of the Wild. I really enjoyed it. But I honestly am never going to play that game again. I understand. That's a totally valid feeling about that. Give me Mario Odyssey all fucking day. Now, that's a game I've put. We should be on Mario Odyssey 5 by now, if I had my drum. Well, Bowser's Fury was good. It was okay. It was fine. And then when the Switch 2 comes out, I imagine Odyssey 2 will be right there.

[00:38:28] Like that and Prime 4. You give me those two with the Switch 2 at launch, I'm there. We're there. Something else I want to highlight is that Bioshock Infinite's level design is also really fantastic. Like the first two games relied on giving you this, like, directional arrow, you know, because it's so dark and you're not going to make heads or tails of anything. So you really need that kind of thing. Or check the map every two seconds to make sure, okay, this staircase leads to that part or whatever, like we talked about, right? Exactly.

[00:38:56] Infinite has level design crafted to get you moving and schmoving, baby, from place to place. It's like, as we said, it's pretty much a linear game, but you do get to explore around here or there, right? But so you're not totally on rails, but even the parts where you are, you don't feel like you are, which is the important part. And the best part is if you ever get lost on where to go, I think it's you tap up on the D-pad and it draws an arrow on the ground. Oh, yeah.

[00:39:25] That is, yeah, I did employ that a few times because like, okay, I'm done exploring around. Where do I go? Right? Yeah, and I like that like the audio design, like some of like the sound effects and all that are taken from Bioshock 1, but they're altered a little bit. Yeah, I did notice that. Like that was a nice little like touch there as well. Like, again, they do like little things to connect Infinite to the one and two, you know, little things throughout the game until say we get near the end and it just throws it in your face. Okay.

[00:39:55] It's time to talk about more racism. Okay. Because... Oh, thank God. I know you're chomping at the bit. Okay. So basically when you get in the, I don't know if it's like the Sky Station or whatever the fuck that thing is, the Sky Subway. You find a audio log of some guy who's like making a deal and he just makes some offhanded comment about, you know, the price of it. And he's like, I'm half a Jew when I smell silver. And I was like, yo, dude.

[00:40:24] Oh, Jesus Christ. Shortly, shortly after... I know, right? It's ridiculous. And then shortly after that, you find that poster with a very outdated drawing of a black man in chains. And it says, I think it says, only when the Negro is free, then we will be free. I believe so. Yes. And it's like, okay. And then this... Was that your first N-word drop, sir?

[00:40:52] No, that's not the N-word I'm going to say later. And... It's Spanish for black. Oh, sure. Yes. I can say it. I can say it. I mean, you can, but you know. I don't want... I'm okay. Okay. I mean, shit. I gave you permission. Nope. Nope. Nope. I'm not walking into that trap. I'm no dumbass. I'm not walking into that fucking trap. Let's talk about our favorite hip-hop lyrics here on the air. Shame on...

[00:41:22] Never mind. I love ODB. Don't we all? We all did. Rest in peace. Old Dirty Bastard, live and uncut. I could keep going. No, I won't keep going. Please don't. This is where... This is where we start seeing the... How do I say it? The rhetoric start to ramp up. This is where you start seeing the signs that say, protect our race. Yes.

[00:41:51] This is where you start seeing the signs that say, in pursuit of our racial purity, and it has the family, right? The white family. Yes. This is where you see the guys... You see all the workers are black, basically. And you see all the... Everyone else is white. This is where you see the whites only sign as... I think... You know... I don't know if you have Elizabeth at this point. It's like... You see it... It says like whites or something, and you're like walking through a hallway.

[00:42:20] I think you're getting to that point. Okay. Yeah. And this is like... You start seeing all this kind of stuff. I don't know if this is an audio log, or you overhear a black worker say this, but he's like, I guess even in these places, these crackers need people to clean the floors, or something like that. I forget who says that. Because the whole reason Columbia exists is because Mr. Comstock, Zachary Comstock, was...

[00:42:50] I believe he was part of the Pinkertons, and he essentially wanted Columbia to be promoting American exceptionalism, which is still something we're dealing with to this day, actually. But Comstock interfered in the Boxer Rebellion, which for those who don't know, the Boxer Rebellion was a uprising in North China in the late 1800s, early 1900s

[00:43:19] that was meant to sort of go against the British Empire and all that stuff because of the British Empire's history with China and everything. And so Comstock siding with... Whitey, essentially, attacked Peking during that. And that caused a rift between him and President McKinley, who was the president at the time. And so they kind of worked out a deal to where they were just like, okay, look, how about you just make your own little Columbia thing, but it has to go up there.

[00:43:49] It can't be down here. It's got to go up there. And he's like, bet. And then fucking goes up there. Okay. So, yeah, it was one of those things, basically. So, oh, yeah, it was that the U.S. government demanded that Comstock would return, but that's when Columbia seceded to be its own thing. Okay. So in a way, Columbia is like a floating confederacy. Yeah.

[00:44:17] That's kind of how I always took it. But fucking traitor pieces of shit. Yep. And it all comes crashing down and it's that is kind of sweet, but not really. But here's why. Here's what I find bizarre about all of this, all this, all this racial stuff that I just mentioned. This stuff isn't your garden variety, casual racism that you might have heard in 1912. Right. This is something else entirely. This game is trying to say something,

[00:44:45] but I have no earthly idea what Bioshock Infinite is trying to say. It almost feels like they want Columbia to sort of be a video gameized version of the Confederacy where, you know, like racism was like intentionally baked into its documentation, you know, in the U.S. it was done a little bit more subtly. But here it's like, you know, right there. I mean, hell, they even like reference, like they talk about worshiping the founding fathers as like, you know, religious icons. But yet when it comes to Abraham Lincoln,

[00:45:14] because he freed the slaves, they're kind of, they're like, eh, we don't really like him too much because he freed the slaves. And then there's like, I think there's a statute at John Wilkes Booth. It's like, what the fuck guys? Like we're going there and it's trying to, like it's going so far with like the, the, the racism stuff. It almost comes off as like cartoony. Yeah. You know, which feels like it's almost diminishing the effect because it's hitting so strongly that it like, it almost kind of

[00:45:43] desensitizes you to it a little bit. You know what I mean? Especially when your main complaint is that they're not really saying anything. That's the sucky part about this game. They don't, you, you can't have signs that say protect our race and racial purity and all this shit and then not really talk about it. Yeah. Here's the thing. Again, this is not the real 1912, right? And I get it. Like the, what I'm about to say

[00:46:12] is a little bit, you know, I'm talking about like the fifties or sixties or whatever, but we know in the South after world war two, you can see signs, you know, not everywhere, but in the South that say like, you know, Japs keep moving. This is, you know, white man's country or some shit like that or niggers stay out or whatever the hell they had in the South. Whoa, who, who said that? Who said that? It wasn't me. Okay. Yeah. You, you can see stuff like that. Right. But those are like,

[00:46:41] but those are very like localized like thing. I mean, like I said, I grew up in California. I would never see something like that. Right. So I'm, I mean, I'm sure, I mean, I mean, you don't have to go in detail, but I'm sure even in San Diego, you dealt with your own, you know, like, like people being kind of racist towards you. Very, very rarely as a, but even as a biracial angel born in 1982, I, I really, nah, man, I never, no one ever called me a name like that. And I've never even been called

[00:47:10] like a Oreo or some shit that kids might say that I've heard in other places. Like, I've never heard that. because I've known of like, you know, like mixed race people who deal with it from like both sides. Yeah. You know what I mean? I, again, it could be our different experiences because like, you know, growing up where I have is always, it's always been kind of multi-ethnical where I've grown up and like when I went to school, there was like, you know, it was all type of, you know, like whites, blacks, Asians, Latinos, like the whole thing. Right? So I got a decent

[00:47:38] amount of multiculturalism, but like Ohio, I've always said it's like a weird mixture of like the East Coast, the Midwest, and the South. And so, and you would see a little bit of all three of them. And so I guess it was like, I've, you saw some of those, some of those racial opinions on things as well. Like things like, you know, microaggressions and then not a lot of blatant stuff, but a lot of like subtle stuff that I look back and go like, oh, that was kind of weird.

[00:48:08] You know what I mean? Yeah. So I know I could just be that like our vantage points are different on that, you know, especially like growing up, like in middle school, I was the token white guy, like in my group of friends. Yeah, for real. So, and whenever we would like go out and like do stuff or whatever, like I saw like the microaggressions people would have towards them, like it was never directed at me. It was always directed at them. Yeah.

[00:48:38] I felt, I felt microaggressions for sure. You know what I mean? If I felt anything over, over time, it's that, you know, but thankfully I've never lived anywhere or been in a situation or been around people where very blatant racist things have either been said to me or done to me, which is, you know, I mean, maybe I'm lucky, but. Hey, you talk to Steve. Yeah. Yeah. You know, every, every time you out, Steve, you bitch, you bitch, Steve. Every time he talks about drinking unsweetened tea,

[00:49:07] I just say to America's into the microphone. My dad loves unsweetened tea. I don't, I don't get it at all. I don't even like sweet tea. You know, I like tea, but it better, it better have hot tea. It needs hot. I like hot tea. I don't like cold tea. You know, I like, I like hot tea more, but like, yeah, I always, I always, I always to America's him on that. Yeah. I drink hot tea when either like I'm sick or it's like really fucking cold outside. You know, that's, that's when it feels good.

[00:49:48] So like after, like as you're rescuing Elizabeth and after all that, like shooty bang, bang, I thought it was a really smart call to have that facility level where you're tracking Elizabeth. Well, I guess it's before you rescue her cause you're tracking her through various rooms and you're kind of like spying on her and you see her like rip open the reality. Right. And it's playing tears for fucking fears. Cause you know, it's like the 1980s. Right. So it's like, okay. And then she closes it. It's like, what the, what? Why are we?

[00:50:18] And that's like a motif that repeats later where it's like, you hear like Cindy Lauper and all that stuff. And I don't really know what they were trying to say with that. Honestly, I didn't, I should have looked into that really. Cause that was like a weird thing. That's like, are they trying to do something with that? I'm not quite sure. I don't know, but it is, it is here where we meet the true main character, uh, Elizabeth. Um, what, what, what do you think of Elizabeth? I think she's a really interesting character. She's,

[00:50:47] she's the only character in the game. I can stand for the most part. So like, maybe like, maybe that's part of it. And, uh, I probably, I don't know if I said this well enough about the last of us up front of wide kind of shit on it. I hate every single person in that game. Everybody, this, uh, she might be the only person I think is interesting enough to like quote unquote follow, you know? And it's just, yeah, I like, I, I liked, I liked her role in this entire thing.

[00:51:17] Yes. I'll say that. She's, she reminds me a lot of, um, Yuna from Final Fantasy 10 where it's like, like that's like, she's like the main character of that game too, really. And, and the whole game is like you as the protagonist are playing as somebody who has a direct relationship with her. And it feels like a lot of the plot is kind of based on the relationship between the two of them. Right. Okay. Infinite goes, you know, it does some weirder things with it. Whereas with 10, it feels like that's a

[00:51:47] lot of the, the more of the focus of that game. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, but yeah, like Elizabeth, I really like her character. Like, yeah, she's, she's really cool. Uh, Courtney Draper is the, I hope I said that right, is the, the lady who voices her. And I think she does a fantastic job. Yeah. she, she's more known for like, like TV roles and all that kind of stuff, but she has, does some other like video game stuff. Um, like she was, uh, somebody in like final fantasy type zero. She was in days gone,

[00:52:17] the final fantasy seven remake. So she's done some other things in the video game world anyways, but yeah, but I think she brings a really nice performance to probably the best character in the game and probably my favorite character in all of Bioshock. Probably. Uh, you know, I think you might be correct. Well, apparently a little fun facts that Bill always likes to tell me is that the, for Bioshock infinite, you know, the cover of it that has Booker on there. Originally it was going to be Booker and Elizabeth,

[00:52:46] but back then they were like, Oh, you can't put a Elizabeth on here because nobody's going to buy a game with a female on the cover. So they took her off of it. But if you look at say the complete edition now, it has that picture of like, you know, Booker and Elizabeth and all that. And that's what the cover was going to be. That doesn't make any fucking sense. Why would they say that? I, I, cause they were being fucking weird. Apparently that does, that literally makes no sense. There's never been a girl on the cover of a video game.

[00:53:15] We cannot sell this. Like, what the hell are they talking about? I, I, I don't know. I, I honestly don't know. Anyway, that is, that's insane. Yeah. Cause apparently, yeah, the original art was going to have her and they were asked why. And they said it was designed, like it was designed to appeal to the casual player. So like the casual, like cod gamer wouldn't want to buy a game with a woman on the cover. And it's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like she's the goddamn focus of the game.

[00:53:46] I added that as ponderously stupid. I can't even, that's, that's so stupid. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe it's because like Elizabeth is not a sexualized character at all. Maybe they don't, they don't do anything with her in that regard, which I think is honestly great. Like they don't, they don't go there at all with her. They don't need, yeah, the story doesn't call for that. So it's not really, it's not really necessary. Thank God. Yes. Anyway, back to racism. So,

[00:54:18] so white women, you know, racist. White women. Am I right? So you escape, you escape with her, you encounter the racist people on the beach. Did you overhear their conversations? One, one girl was like one time an Oriental came up to me and asked the time or something like that. And he's like, oh no, it was so terrible. Yeah. He said Oriental. Like a rug came up to you. Yeah. What time is it? I heard that. And I was like, oh God, I've heard people in real

[00:54:48] life say like Oriental. And I was going, oh God. Oriental was fairly common when I was growing up. That's kind of what you said. We were, we were not in the eighties. That's kind of like, yeah, that's kind of what you said. So yeah, they probably still call the Washington commanders, the old name. Oh yeah, for sure. The potatoes. I'm talking about the potatoes. Oh, oh fuck dude, dude. Boomers love saying Oriental. Like, trust me. It's their, it's their thing. Every time they say that, I just go, oh, I love rugs.

[00:55:18] Colored, colored too. Some of them still say colored. Oh, but you know, I mean, like gives me the ick. Yeah, it's, it's pretty ick, but here's the thing. And here's something I'm going to really press down on. Okay. After this part, it dawned on me what rubs me the wrong way about this game. And it's like what I said in its depictions of racism. Bioshock infinite is completely goddamn gutless,

[00:55:48] gutless. And in other words, if you're going to go there, then go there. Okay. Like, I don't know what you think about like Quentin Tarantino movies, but he goes there. Okay. Oh yeah. He's not, he's not, he's, he will touch on those uncomfortable places, which is one of the many reasons why he's my favorite director. Okay. And I don't know if you know this story about Django Unchained, where Leonardo DiCaprio was having very, not misgivings about doing it, but he's like, do I really got to say nigger?

[00:56:19] Or like, you know, like he was like, he had to get into this character. And the thing Tarantino said to him was, yeah, you have to do it this way. If you don't, the audience will never forgive you. And he's right. You can't go into a movie like that and be like half ass. No, should I be this way? Should I know he leaned fully in and you can tell. And it made it a fucking fantastic and unforgettable character. I mean,

[00:56:47] Django is a period piece. So it makes sense that they went that direction because it's meant to be more reflective of those times. Exactly. And people did not hold back back then. Nope. And you can't hold back on screen either. And if you're going to do a game about alternate 1912, you're going to have all this racist ass imagery. You have to commit. And Bioshock Infinite does not commit.

[00:57:13] I feel like it's trying to do like Columbia is trying to like clean up the sort of racism. In a way, like trying to be like, like the nice, polite, liberal type of racism. You know what I mean? Where it's a lot more like soft, but at the same time, like you mix it with having a fucking statue of John Wilkes booth up there. Yep. And it comes off more sort of confused. You know, you know what I mean?

[00:57:40] And then some of that issues come into when you start dealing with like the resistance group as well. Oh, yeah. Which I feel is when it, when it tries to both sides, it just a little bit, just a little bit, a lot bit. Um, but you know, that's what, you know, that's what bothers me about movies that are either about racism or racism is a, you know, it, like you said, it's a period piece. It depicts a certain time. That's the ones that always win Oscars, like the help or green book,

[00:58:10] or like movies like that, that feel like they're just there to make white people feel better about themselves. And if you're worried about people's feelings, you are not going to make compelling art. And that's what Bioshock is for me with the story. Like, yeah, it is like, it feels like they tried to do the whole, like, Oh, there were like sympathetic white people at the time. And it's like, yeah, of course there was, but it's like, that wasn't the majority. No, you know, that wasn't even the minority. It was a minority, like a minority of a minority kind of a thing.

[00:58:40] Exactly. And look, I'm not even saying that, like, look, like we said, it's not real. It's not the real 1912. Right. So I'm not saying this should be true to real life. I'm just saying that, like, if you're going to have this stuff, you should just do it. You know, it's funny that I brought up Michael Brown and we were talking about the first Bioshock in relation to like, you know, the hanging people in the street that Andrew Ryan did. Right. Yeah. And I want to bring them up again because I remember, I'll never forget this during that whole time. Cause you know,

[00:59:10] the cable networks covered that shit for weeks and they should have. Oh, I remember when it happened. That was whoo. Cause you're a lot closer to that than I am right out there. So like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but here's the thing I remember. Um, I forget what channel was admit probably would have been Fox news to do this. They had, um, a black man on to speak. I forget who the panelist was. It was this white lady and she was dancing around it. She was saying if those people,

[00:59:38] or if they want to act like thugs, they can, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the black dude got, so he got, he, you could tell he was fed up with the stuff she was saying. And he just interrupted her. He's like, just call them niggers. Just call them niggers then. And she, and she was shocked. She was like, what? What? I know. He is like, no, just say it. Just call them niggers. If that's what you want to do. Okay. No, we don't have to do that. Right. We can, we can treat people with dignity, blah, blah, blah. And the, and the conversation goes on, but he,

[01:00:08] you could tell how fed up he was, right? That's how I kind of felt, honestly, playing Bioshock infinite. I was like, just say it, man, just say it. Even Comstock has those, like those audio logs you could find where it's like super racist shit. Like the black will never be as close to the white unless the white accepts that the black is like, you know, it's like all this stuff. And it's like, bro, just say it. Come on. I'm not even necessarily saying, just say nigger. I'm just saying like,

[01:00:38] say exactly what you mean, please for once. And this game never, ever, ever does it. And that drove me insane. Like in trying to sort of clean it up, it muddies the water. Yeah, dude, you got it. If you want to go there, go there. I'm fine with it. I love stuff. Like, like I said, Tarantino is my favorite director because it's in part because he goes there. Okay. And I'm not saying he's a perfect person or he does everything correctly, but you can tell like black people looked at the script for Django and chain.

[01:01:08] I don't think a single person with an ounce of melon and looked at Bioshock Infinite. I'm sorry. No, I see it. I see. I mean, the writer is just Ken Levine. Like, yeah, the guy credited as writing the script, you know? Yeah, man. And so, and it, you know, and I'm not saying every movie or game that depicts racism needs to be this like gravely serious thing. Right? Because again, let's go back to Django. There's a lot of funny things in that movie. That shit can be really funny,

[01:01:36] but there's also stuff that's not funny at all. Like when the slaves get whipped or whatever, like that's not funny. That's presented as like this very like brutal thing that it is. Right? Yep. Bioshock is so fucking cowardly that it won't even show you a single NPC interaction between like a black servant and their white superior. It's so cowardly. And it's just never addressed at all. And again, going back to Comstock with those audio logs,

[01:02:06] he doesn't talk like that to any of his flunkies or God forbid say to any black person, because there's no black people around him, even though he thinks they're so inferior. Bioshock infinite is your typical coward racist that will call you a nigger behind your back and be nice to your face. I have absolutely no respect for a game that won't call me a nigger to my face. Not literally, but like you, you understand what I mean. Like I just, that's, that's the main thing about Bioshock infinite. That just,

[01:02:33] is it that it wants to tackle these like real world, um, like issues and everything and trying to make some kind of stance on it. But it kind of does the, like the politician thing where it kind of like pulls back a little bit because it just doesn't want to like say the thing because they're afraid of like it being too, like, like getting like too reactionary out of it. Yeah. When really, like, as you said, like, like, it's better to just like state the position.

[01:03:03] You, you, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. Like people would respond better to it if you were just more blunt about it. Exactly. And I think, I think they didn't want the smoke. They want, they wanted the, they wanted the fire. They didn't want the smoke. They wanted to try to say something and it's just like, well, okay, I'm skipping ahead a little bit here. Remember the part where you get to, and then it's like not a, her,

[01:03:33] his wife is not, it's like a white lady now or something like that. And, and then Troy Baker's like, oh, you know what happened? I was looking for a Chinese lady. No, this is her. What? Okay. But the point is they capture the Chinese man in the other reality and they're saying racist shit to him. They're like, get up, you pathetic gook. And like shit like that to him. Right. Yeah. First of all, that's not even something you call Chinese people. I think there's another word that I, you know, like I, that's one of them. Yeah. It's one of them. Okay.

[01:04:01] I felt like that word is directed more towards Koreans or whatever. I'm, maybe I'm ignorant on that. Number two, you have the balls to say gook, but you're not going to say nigger. Okay. I see where you're coming from then. It's because like that word has so much like power to it. You know what I mean? Whereas like, whereas like people have seen, have seemed to be more okay with saying like all the other ethnic slurs because they don't have the same history. History as say, you know,

[01:04:31] that one that starts with the N because of its connection here. But like when it comes to, you know, like Jewish people or Latino people or Muslims or whatever, like people seem more okay with saying those type of ones. You know what I mean? Yes, that is true. I'm not saying any of them as a white person. I'm not doing it. I'm just, I agree. I'm, I'm doing the, um, the, the, uh, the Louis CK bit where, um,

[01:05:01] I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of Louis CK, but like, but like, yeah, the bit where it's like, he's watching the news and they say, uh, this person said, uh, the N word, you know? And in this hand, he's like, Oh, it's like, they're making me say it. Just fucking say it. Don't make me say it. Yeah. But I'm, I'm going to be that guy. Like, yeah, I understand. I fully understand your position on this, on this front. I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from on this, because I know like we both like this game for,

[01:05:30] to a degree. Right. So, I mean, I thought it was great. You loved it. And I love the game. I did enjoy this game. Like I do, you know? So you can tell it's like this game, it was more meant for me. You know what I mean? Like it's trying to, to say all of these things to somebody like me, not somebody like you, you know what I mean? Absolutely. So that's where our perspectives come in. And that are different. Exactly. And I think that's, that's fine, you know, but just for me, I wanted more like,

[01:05:59] say it with your fucking chest, man. So yeah. I get that. I got that. That's kind of, by the way, I kind of want to stress this too. Not that I'm really worried about like Kevin Levine's feelings or something like that, but I don't think this game is like problematic or like racist or like, I think this game is a piece of shit, like, or whatever. The only thing I could maybe like harp on is that maybe not, not every single ethnic person needs to like every, like, Oh yes,

[01:06:28] Massa. I'm a just shine in the floor and your shoes and shit. Like, it felt like every black person had that like very period accent. I don't know nothing about birth and babies. Yeah, exactly. Maybe, maybe a little over the top, right? Maybe. Yeah. I get they were trying to like really drive that point home. I understand why it's that way, but I don't know. It's a little much. Um, okay. Let's talk about more racism plus gameplay. Okay. Because he can't avoid it.

[01:06:58] So let's talk about, yeah, racist gameplay, because it definitely was where you get to what I like to, to racist, to, to a racism. Was this LA Noir? I felt like, I felt like that game dealt with some stuff better than Bioshock. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, really. Yeah. You know, I want to replay, I want to replay that. It's one of my favorite games of all time. I have a physical of it now. Oh God, I got to get, I haven't even played there. I only played the original. I haven't played it since it got remastered.

[01:07:28] Um, another great piece in the game is what I like to call the racism exhibit of like cardboard cutout, like literally, literally red skinned native Americans, literally red and like literally yellow skinned Asian people. Dude, it was crazy. And then they're with the Asians with like the buck teeth and the fangs. And it's like, oh, oh boy, they're a little ahead of it because that was a lot of the, um,

[01:07:57] like the Japanese propaganda during world war two. Of course. They would either be like buck tooth or fanged or whatever, you know, but like, I'm sure it was still a thing back then. Cause also like, you know, Chinese immigration was a big thing at the time with, you know, like, uh, uh, the, the Chinese coming over to help, like, you know, build the railroads or the West and, you know, and that's, you know, a part of why the West coast has such a big Asian population. You know, that's the whole thing. Yep. Yeah. And that's why, like, you know, again, part of my growing up, I knew Asian people.

[01:08:26] I knew obviously I'm from San Diego. I'm from a border town. I knew Mexican people and other, and other Hispanic people from other countries and all that shit. So, you know, that's part of the reason why I never got called a thing down there. Um, but the thing is at the, at the racism exhibit, that's when you find out, uh, uh, Troy Baker. I cannot remember the character's name. Um, it's Troy Baker. Do you find out Troy Baker himself was that you wounded knee? Yes. And that was like,

[01:08:56] Oh, okay. And I'm like, Oh, we're going to wounded knee. Yeah. Do we have to explain wounded knee to our audience? I feel like people know what wounded knee is. Okay. I know. I think we can, if not, they can pause us and look that up on their phone real quick. I'm sure. Yeah. If you, if you, if you don't know, please look it up. I mean, to be fair, our American education system does not do a good job of explaining, um, the shit that we did to the native Americans. Nope. It does not.

[01:09:25] So there's a good chance somebody watching may not know. Go look it up. Go look it up real quick. There's okay. You know, the band from the nineties toe, the wet sprocket. Yes. Okay. They have a song that's about not literally just about wounded knee, but it's about native Americans and land and stuff like that. That's how I wrote wounded knee was in 1990 fucking seven. I was 15 years old and I listened to that song and that's what I learned with that shit was not at school. So like, you know, the two year point,

[01:09:54] I had to learn it from that, that terrible liberal music. That radical leftist music. Yeah. Known as toad, the wet sprocket, terrible band name, a band name that would only exist in fucking like 1990. Oh yeah. Great. I love toe, the wet sprocket though. Love them. Point is your, the character was there and it's like, so this whole, this whole thing, it's like a set piece where you're going through the racism exhibit and sending guys at you.

[01:10:24] What a fucking great action. Oh my God, man. When this game does like moment to moment action, just probably better than most games I've played. It is just so good. So for the most part,

[01:10:51] I thought the dialogue between Booker and Elizabeth felt natural and fine. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed seeing their sort of relationship develop. You know what I mean? It was cool. It was cool to see, but there's a part though where you get on the ship to escape and he's going to take her to New York to essentially sell her off or whatever. And she cries for a few seconds and then knocks him out cold with a hammer. And then all of this happens in like 15 seconds. And I'm like, Whoa, wait, hold,

[01:11:21] hold on. Like, you know, I felt like they could have had a much better character moment if it's like, no, I gotta, this is my mission. I gotta sell it. Oh, please don't do that. I want to go see Paris. Oh, please. But it happens so fast. Yeah, it does. You know, it's weird. And then Booker is waking up and you hear what sounds like slave singing from the 1800s, because guess what it is.

[01:11:50] And I'm thinking the whole time as he's waking up, Oh no, don't, don't do it. Please, please don't do it. But they did. You literally see people in pinstripe prison suits, hammering rocks, and they're singing. It's mostly black people. There's some white people there, but I would say it's 60, 65% black people. And it's like, Oh my God, are we really doing this? And then like, you meet the, the head of the black resistance movement.

[01:12:20] And she's like, go get it. What's her name? Fitzroy. Yes. Yes. Let me, let me get her, her name proper. Daisy Fitzroy. Daisy Fitzroy. And you meet her. She's like, go get us some guns and we'll give you back your ship or whatever. Bye bitch. And you're like, wait, can I please learn why people are slaves? Or like, can I please know something about this? Like, give me anything. Give me, tell me something about this resistance movement. This is the prime time to do it.

[01:12:49] Tell me why it's so much more racist here up in the sky than in goddamn America. Like anything, please. Oh man. What did you think of her as a character? I'll, I'll sound off on that in a sec, but like, I don't know, man. I feel like she reminds me a little bit of like Fontaine where it's like, they're trying to have like another interesting character, but like they're set up really interestingly, but I feel like they end up not being that interesting.

[01:13:20] Yeah. Right. Cause I feel like she could have been interesting, but she was not written to be interesting. Like the premise is interesting. Okay. We do have a resistance group in almost said in Comstock in Columbia. Yeah. You know that, that is cool. It would make sense that it would exist, you know, with how that society is set up, you know what I mean? But like, again, we're going back to racism. Like, obviously like your character, Booker D. Witt. I remember it. His name is not Troy Baker,

[01:13:50] but it doesn't give a fuck. It doesn't give a fuck about anything. He does not care. Your character stands for nothing. He's just a hired gun. He's just trying to get Elizabeth back because of reasons that we're not aware of yet. Yeah. And he's just like, he wants to sell this girl and pay off his debts and that's it. Yeah. He's just trying to pay off his debts. Yeah. Yeah. He participated at wounded fucking knee and we still don't really like, he's just kind of scarred by it or doesn't want to talk about it. Hey bro.

[01:14:18] Maybe someone nudge him in the fourth, through the fourth wall and tell him it's a video game. And maybe like, I want to, I want to know about some of this stuff. I mean, it feels like it's trying to hold onto it for like, you know, narrative intrigue, you know, and you get the sense that he's, he's kind of like, yeah, got like PTSD from the sort of wounded knee incident. And that's kind of caused him to become this sort of like, cause, cause you occasionally get like the whole, like, oh, he's like a private detective or whatever that I guess is like, he's living in his office and that,

[01:14:48] you know, and he has this like debt that needs to be paid off and you're not quite sure what the debt is, you know? So, and then like Elizabeth is sort of like paying off that debt, but that's really all you know about him is that he's just, you know, yeah, as you said, coming up to get Elizabeth, that he's not involved in this in any way, in any way. But as it progresses, you're like, there's something going on here. You know, again, it's a lot like the first game, where, but I think the first game does a good job of like keeping you in the

[01:15:18] dark, basically the entire time until the twist. Yeah. This is trying to like kind of lean you more into like, no, there's something going on, but like just, just stay tuned. We'll tell you. Yeah, for sure. I guess it's fine. It's fine. But I think at that point I was just like a little antsy, especially when you keep throwing all this stuff at me. And it's like, please tell me something. But then a lot of, again, with all the racial stuff, you don't really get to learn much at all. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. It's just almost just like, you know, no racism here. Isn't that bad? And it's like,

[01:15:48] well, yeah, yeah. But like, you know, no, like most people would just say that regardless of their actual opinion on it. Like if you just outright ask them, is racism bad? They're going to like 99% of people are going to go, well, yeah, of course. Yes. But the also, but that's the thing like that interracial couple comes back from the, from the carnival. And it's like, Oh, whether you did or did not throw the baseball at them. And I didn't. And they're like, Oh, thank you for whatever. And for not, for not doing that. But it's like, but Booker didn't fucking do anything.

[01:16:17] Does he agree or disagree with anything that that's happening here? I have no idea. So like, I don't know, man, whether you're like, make him a piece of shit, make him a racist piece of shit. At least that would be interesting. At least I know where he stands. Yeah. Right. But we didn't, we didn't really get that. Okay. Okay. Okay. There's a moment in this game. There's been several moments. There's a moment in this game that fucking broke me. And look, Oh no, I'm willing to forgive a lot for great gameplay.

[01:16:47] And I have up to this point. Okay. And I was willing, you know, the, all the racism, wishy-washy messaging, the girl who can jump through reality for some reason, the weird truncated emotional scene. Cool. Shooty bang, bang. I'm cool with it. Then the reality jump happens where Booker DeWitt is a resistance hero to the people. And there's posters on the wall. It's a DeWitt martyr of the revolution and whatever.

[01:17:16] And it's him raising a fist. And that's when you, that's when you jump through. Cause, um, at this point you, you find out that, yeah, like Elizabeth can create tears in reality. Right. And it's been something that they've like talked about. Elizabeth's like, I don't know. I've just kind of always had it. Right. And then it helps out in the gameplay where it's like, you can just randomly summon turrets or things to help you out in battle, which is fucking cool. And the way they handle Elizabeth in the combat sections is fantastic. She just kind of hangs off to the side. Yes. She doesn't help at all,

[01:17:46] but she doesn't like fight, but like nobody tries to like get her or anything, but she'll occasionally throw supplies at you. That's so good. Usually like in a timely fashion when you need them, like how they handle the companion here is just, is fantastic miles ahead of like fucking Ashley and Resident Evil four. You know what I mean? Oh, Jesus Christ. Like it's handled like, I love how they handle her in the gameplay sections. Yeah. It's really cool. And then, and then, yeah. Yes. And then, yeah, with, with the tears, you know, you start asking her, it's like,

[01:18:16] oh, can you like create a tear in reality that we can like go through? Cause when you're doing that stuff, trying to get the weapons for them, you, you sort of have to create a tear in order to, I think it's meet the, the, the, the, the guy who may makes the weapons. Right. And so, yeah, as when you go through the tear and it was at that point where I'm like, oh no, we're, we're, we're hitting into the fucking multiverse now, aren't we? we are. And this was a time where the multiverse was still kind of like a new thing. Like it wasn't overdone yet. Like it is now. Yes.

[01:18:45] So that probably helped a lot of the game's positive reception was that's like, oh, it's doing this new crazy thing with the multiverse. That's cool. And it's like, yeah, it is cool. But like a lot of things that handled the multiverse, this was the point where I just went, uh, it lost me a little bit. Cause, cause now it's like, it's going to become very difficult to sort of follow the plot from here on out to maintain sort of any linear progression. And that case is kind of made as you keep playing it.

[01:19:16] Yeah. I, I think I, you know, I didn't mind the stuff that much. I don't like the way they did it, especially the ending. Holy shit. I didn't like, I find the ending fascinating. I did not like it. I didn't, I, that is not, I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's just not what I wanted personally or something, but I guess we'll get there in a sec. Um, but yeah, you're seeing the posters. Do you went martyr of the revolution? He's raising a fist. I'm like, is it possible to die from secondhand embarrassment? Like, because like,

[01:19:45] I almost did. And, and, and, and that's always like, fucking, what are we even doing here? And then he says the money line, the only difference between Comstock and Fitzroy is the way you spell the name. Oh boy. Bro. That one, that one did piss me off. That line pissed me off. Cause that's when it's both sidesing this shit. Martin Luther King is the same as, you know, his,

[01:20:15] the people who oppress black people. Same thing. As same thing. Who is, who is the guy who won some electoral votes in the Jim Crow South in the sixties? Oh, what the fuck? You know, I know who you mean. Yes. Yeah. Like, like, yeah. MLK is no better than that guy. And it's like, you're, you're fucking, you're, you're really George Wallace, George Wallace. That's who I was thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. Martin Luther King is no better than George Wallace. And I'm like, you,

[01:20:44] you fucking dick. How dare you? That's, that's the thing, right? This game. like I said, he stands for nothing and he says nothing and he doesn't want to be a part of nothing, but saving this girl. But all of a sudden he has an opinion and it's that. What the fuck? Get out of here, man. Oh, man. Like, that's just, that's so insane to me. And again, I don't typically, it's like I said about the first game. I don't typically get offended, if you will, at like a video games, like worldview. Cause it's, it's not real. It's a video game, right? Yeah.

[01:21:14] I don't, I don't need to like take that to, to mean anything in our reality here on earth. I totally get that. but this game is trying to tackle real world issues, you know, like it, it's trying to say something about this stuff. So it, it's fair to sort of have these sort of opinions on it. Then by the way, right after that, you're taking down a Zeppelin single handedly doing some impossible white man shit. You're going on all these railings and shooting at all these shit.

[01:21:44] It's so fucking cool. It's so much fun. It's so much fun. It's so much fun. It's like, and then you're like, God damn it. It pulls you back in because the gameplay is so good. Exactly. It's like people who still listen to Kanye. It's like fucking, yeah, he's a piece of shit. He has the jams. What can I say? He has the jams point is, so he says that. And I,

[01:22:06] and then I realized quickly that the only reason why he says that is because they want to justify making Fitzray turn on you for no particular reason that I can discern. It's where like the multiverse stuff comes into play where my issue with it is that then they can allow themselves to have more of a disjointed plot where all of these like certain things happen. And it's like, but why is this happening? Like last time I saw you were fine. It's like, no, it's in this universe.

[01:22:36] I hate you. And it's like, but why? They're like, nevermind. You know, right now she wants to kill this child. Right. So it's like, okay. And then Elizabeth goes in, Elizabeth goes in there and stabs her to death. And then, so it basically feels like Troy Baker. Once again, I forgot Booker DeWitt says that line only for, to, to Booker T to justify her turning evil for some reason. And Elizabeth killing her so she can have her. Oh no, I killed somebody moment. Right.

[01:23:05] Fucking trash, man. Tell me I didn't just see that. It sucks, dude. Like it gets, it gets, it gets too convoluted at this point. And that's, and that's, and that's the thing that it like, I liked the first half so much that like the second half, it just completely lost me in the story. And like, but the gameplay was so good. I hung in there. Me too. Up to the, the end. And, and I think we might disagree on the ending, but you know, we'll get there.

[01:23:34] Cause all the while there's still that, like there's that couple that you keep seeing everywhere. Oh, it's like, and I don't know if they ever properly explain them. They're just kind of like there. However, I want to say this. I want to say this. And I have not played the game again. Cause why would I, but I feel like in the intro, am I crazy or were they black? No, they weren't. They were. Okay. Cause I couldn't, I couldn't fucking tell the whole time. I thought they were two black people rowing you to this place. And I did not,

[01:24:03] I couldn't really see them. So I was like, okay. Okay. They're white people the whole time. Okay. I was like, if they were black in the intro, they're not in black face. Okay. Okay. I was like, now we're getting into some shit. Okay. Thank you. Minstrel show. I'm surprised. They didn't have a menstrual show at the beginning with the carnival and everything. They probably should have one. What the fuck? That would have been. Oh boy. Yeah. They, if they want to go there, go there. But this game is not interested in that. After the,

[01:24:31] after that Zeppelin thing and the whole victory thing, I felt the game gameplay took a little bit of a dip at some point because I feel like the balance is not as good. Yeah. And it gets a little repetitive at this point because it doesn't, it stops like innovating as much, you know, like the gameplay is still good, but it's like at this point, it's like, it's kind of done everything that was going to do. Yeah. And so it's just giving you more of it,

[01:25:01] which is fine. I still enjoy the gameplay, but yeah, you can tell like the game kind of takes a dip at this point. Yeah. Cause there's like a lot of fights with like, you know, where you're fighting them ghosts and like ammo is just like, not a thing anymore. Yeah. It's like, can I have, can I shoot them? I can't do anything. Right. So it's like, Oh, and then you fight those like mini me's with like George Washington heads and shit. Oh yeah. That, yeah. That shit was weird. That was weird. You know, you know, those racist accounts on Twitter that always have like statue profile pictures.

[01:25:30] Like that's who they were. Yes. Yes. All those guys. It's like, you want to know what they look like in real life. Like you have an idea in your head. I thought it was a little sudden at the end. I guess we're going towards the ending now. I thought it was a little sudden that he just, it felt like he just all of a sudden decided to care about Elizabeth. It's just like, okay, now she gets captured again. And all of a sudden,

[01:26:00] this is like your most important thing. Oh, I want to save you. And it's just like now, but you just wanted to sell her like an hour ago. I don't know what happened. Did you, did you feel like that was a bit sudden? I don't know. Like, it felt like they were developing like a bit of like a friendship, you know, like it, like the movie thing where it's like, Oh, like reluctant partners. And it's like, they spend like time with each other, you know what I mean? And now they're like, you know, becoming like closer or whatever, you know, it,

[01:26:30] it just does kind of that thing where it's like, you know, Oh, this person's okay. You know, let me just like kind of hang with them. You, you, you know what I mean? Cause they kind of do that with Elizabeth as well. You know, I see what you mean by it being sudden, but it just kind of happens in the same way that like anything else where it's like, Oh, reluctant teammates, you know, by the end of it, they're, they're best buddies now, you know? Yeah, I guess, I guess maybe if the game were like a couple hours shorter, I wouldn't mind that it felt a little bit microwaved. Cause you kind of have to do that in a game that short,

[01:27:00] but this is like, this isn't a long game by any means, but it's like 12 hours. I'd say. Yeah. About right. But if it were more like eight to 10, I could understand that a little, little for sure. For sure. Yeah. Um, I kind of don't like that. You don't spend a whole lot of time with Comstock as like kind of the main villain. Cause he's not really like you, you, you start the game. You, he's kind of positioned as that, but he's not really bad. he's like this weird sort of like imposing sort of idea.

[01:27:30] You know what I mean? Like they tried to do the Andrew Ryan thing with him, but they didn't, you could tell they didn't want to copy that. So they were trying to make him more sort of mysterious, but I think it in making him more mysterious, it's just like, I don't really care about this guy because they're not doing a lot with him as a character. No, like it in any regard, really like at least compared to say how they handled Andrew Ryan. Yeah, of course. Like he's a memorable villain. Like I will never forget Andrew Ryan.

[01:27:59] Whereas like Comstock, I, you kind of forget about him, but when you get to the ending, maybe there's a reason for that. Yes. I mean, you want to go there? I mean, cause like, I guess what's the final, is it the final battle? Oh, the shit where you actually control the fucking bird. We didn't even talk about the bird. I don't even know what to say about that thing. The bird is essentially, if Elizabeth is a little sister, that bird is her big daddy, basically. Like it's her, it's basically her protector kind of a thing. And it's, again,

[01:28:29] it feels like it's trying to have like a weird imposing sort of thing. But like, again, it's like, I don't really know if it does much with it or not. You know, it's just, it's introducing a lot of ideas, but it feels like these ideas aren't like fleshed out enough to really make it worth it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I, I agree. But I liked, I guess I liked the imagery of the bird and I helped fuck that last part where you get to control the bird. You tell the bird to like, Oh, take down the Zeppelin.

[01:28:59] That was cool. Shit was so fucking cool. When this game is good. When this game is good. It's so good. Oh my God. It's so good. I don't even know. I don't even know what to give this game. If I were giving it a one to 10 or a letter grade, I have no fucking idea because there's some things in here that are, I think are almost reprehensible. And then other things that are like, this is some of the coolest shit I've ever seen. So it's like, I don't know what to do with it. Sometimes it's, it's, it's a conundrum. Yeah. I don't know either.

[01:29:29] Like again, yeah. Gameplay is fantastic. I think I'm more sympathetic to the storytelling than you are just because I think like the first half, like the opening is handled really, really well. It is. But like the second half, like, yeah, it just, it feels like it, it's that part where it's like, Oh, I got to take a stance and it's like, Oh, I don't really want to take a stance because that's like not what I'm trying to say. But like, it's like, but you're trying to say it, you know, like,

[01:29:55] I just don't think Ken Levine is as clever of a writer to really make that work. No. You know, like he's a, he's a good writer, but I don't think he's a great writer. It's great ideas. You know, it's, it's excellent. Yeah. And obviously like, you know, these action set pieces and shit like that. Oh my God. Like it would be, this would make a really good movie. I think. It could, but I kind of, but I think it works better as a video game. Like, like,

[01:30:25] I think people have brought up the idea of a Bioshock movie. And I think it's like, I see why people would want that, but I think it would defeat the purpose of what makes Bioshock work, which is that it's a video game first. Well, well, quite honestly, I feel like I agree with that, but like, if they're going to do a Bioshock movie, I want it to be Rapture. I don't think I would want it to be Columbia. I agree. I agree. You know? Yeah. I think, I think Rapture would be the, the easier one to do because, because if they did an infinite movie, oh my God,

[01:30:54] could you imagine the fucking online conversations? Because this was 2013 where there was online conversations, but like, again, it was a different time. Like imagine if infinite came out like this year. Yeah. Dude, there's people, there's people who played the first Bioshock and got into libertarianism that way from playing Bioshock. From playing Bioshock. Can you believe it?

[01:31:24] People are so fucking, people are so stupid. I just can't believe it. I, I kind of do. And that, I think that's the sad part is that I believe it so much. It's insane. That's insane to me. That was not the lesson you were supposed to take from Bioshock. It's so weird. Oh my God. Oh God. What about, what about the roads?

[01:32:02] The bird stuff was fine. I liked that it was mysterious and like whatever. And I liked her conversations with it or whatever. And she's realizing what's, you know, yeah. Like all the stuff around Elizabeth. I like, cause she's a great character. She is a great character. But even her, like she's trying to spur, like, you know, during like when you're running through the place and you're like going through the, everyone in the revolution is fighting the soldiers or whatever. And even she's saying stuff like, you know, we could, we could help them. We could, we could, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he's like,

[01:32:31] I don't want to be a hero. I just want to get out of here or whatever he's saying. Grumpy pants. And it's just like, you know, she's, she's actually thinking about it somewhat, I guess. So there's, that's, there's that right. For sure. Yeah. With Comstock, I guess all I was trying to say was like, I wish you at least got to like maim that racist son of a bitch or cut his head off with your little twirly hand or something, but you don't even really get to do that. You never get to fight him. Yeah. I feel like there's a reason for that, which, you know, do we get into the ending now?

[01:33:01] Yeah. Let's go, let's go for it. You, you, you seem to like this ending and I don't. So why don't you start with what you, what you feel about it or just detail the events or however you want to tackle it. So how the fuck do I describe the ending? So basically the game gets really meta at the very end, basically where like essentially Elizabeth almost becomes aware and starts communicating to books. Booker as if like knowing he's like the avatar of like the player character. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

[01:33:30] Where you learn that Booker and Comstock are the same person and that Elizabeth is, there is the daughter of like both Booker and Comstock. And so the whole thing was when Wounded Knee happened, there was a point where, you know, it's like, oh, basically it's when the timeline splits. Whereas like if Booker participates in Wounded Knee, like I think both cases he participates in Wounded Knee, but like if he regrets his actions,

[01:33:59] he becomes Booker and just becomes like a miserable son of a bitch, right? Because he gets PTSD. But if he actually agrees with everything is when he becomes Comstock and becomes like the crazy like racist kind of guy, right? And so Elizabeth tries explaining that to you, that like, you know, like the alternate universe thing happens. And then she like takes you through all these different alternate universes where you see like how her, you know, her little finger gets cut off due to like the tears.

[01:34:29] And she's like taking you through all of these different alternate universes, including Rapture. You explore Rapture at the very end. A city at the bottom of the ocean? Ridiculous. Yeah. Like the new, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's like all these different lighthouses and all these different versions of Booker and Elizabeth. And it's like, you know, that's where infinite comes from. There's an infinite number of timelines of this Bioshock sort of happening kind of a thing. Basically it, it becomes, it becomes like, you know,

[01:34:59] Schrodinger's cat, you know, which yeah, basically it's like you, you take the box, you put the cat in the box and then you close the lid, you know, and then it's like either, you know, and then it's like you shoot the box. It's either alive or it's dead. And it's kind of like on like your sort of perception. Right. So yeah, basically it's like, you know, Booker is the cat and yeah, like in Booker can either like, Oh, it's like when the Reverend reaches out the hand, Booker can accept it or reject like the baptism kind of a thing, you know, like, and when he accepts it,

[01:35:27] he becomes Comstock cause he feels absolved, but if he rejects it, he hangs onto that and, you know, basically gets into debt and has to do this sort of thing. And so when Elizabeth kills him at the end, the idea is she's trying to close the loop so that, so, you know, so she can prevent these different universes from happening. So that's like, essentially it's like you're, you're killing the cat before you ever close the fucking lid kind of a thing. It is trying to create this idea that there's like, yeah, an infinite number of universes.

[01:35:56] You know what I mean? Like here, here, here's a, here's a, it's a Reddit post, but hang in there for me. Okay. Um, this person, this person says, and I quote, if you think about it, there's more to the infinite lighthouses than just the Bioshock universes. I think it's an explanation for all video games. Maybe there's a lighthouse that takes you to say like final fantasy, half-life or grand theft auto. Maybe one lighthouse leads you to a save where I found every heart container in Algarita of time. Every lighthouse represents a save game, a player choice, a different play through. And one lighthouse,

[01:36:25] Mario finds the princess and another, she's in another castle. An infinity of game universes visualizes all these Bioshock lighthouses. And I think the game was trying to do something like that. You know what I mean? Like trying to do some like weird infinite universe thing to sort of connect everything together. And then after the credits, there's the, uh, the post credit scene where, um, like where Booker wakes up in his office and then you hear the, the baby crying over in the room, you know,

[01:36:54] where like the crib was supposed to be. And, and my interpretation of that is, um, in Elizabeth trying to close the loop, she gives Booker another chance to be her father. So she's like giving him a chance to sort of correct the wrongs that he was now finally exposed to. Okay. You know, so why do you fucking hate it? I just think it's a fucking cop out, man. I don't like,

[01:37:22] like it's a cop out, like fucking it's, it's what I've been saying this whole time. Well, I'll read this from wiki straight from wiki. Okay. Ken Levine stated that players are supposed to draw their own conclusions from the game with many parts, infinite open to interpretation and speculation to this end. Levine avoided providing an authoritative final answer regarding the game's ending saying what actually matters is what people think. Why does my interpretation matter more than yours?

[01:37:50] I don't actually on the surface disagree with that. Okay. I actually don't, but it fucking sucks in this instance because like, maybe you should not have a video game with wild racist imagery and then not explain yourself. I don't think that's good writing. Like that shouldn't be left open to interpretation, not just the ending, but just like it stuff in infinite. You're only saying that because you didn't want to say anything at all that you,

[01:38:19] he wrote this script scared. You can tell like he did that. I mean, with all the stuff we talked about, plus this, plus the ending, it felt like it felt like a cop out, but maybe that's a bit strong because it's not like I absolutely hated it. It's just that like, we're not even going to say anything at the end. Like at the very end, we're still not going to do it. Okay. I guess the only like real thing,

[01:38:47] the real thing you can latch onto was the thing, like you said, the post credits where you hear the baby crying, the crib. Okay. This is, this is a reset. He's getting another chance at this. Right. That's about the only thing you could really latch onto the rest, man. I don't know. And then just take it, I guess taking a trip through Rapture or whatever real quick was like, kind of like interesting, but like, yeah, it was, it was, it was cute. It was cute. Yeah. I think with, with like, it feels like once you get to the ending, all of like that,

[01:39:16] that racism talk, it just kind of goes away. It goes away. It just, it just kind of gives up on it because it wants to talk more about like, you know, the infinite universe thing, which, you know, sure. Why not? But it's like, you can't leave all that. But I get what you're saying. You can't leave all that stuff hanging that you were talking about earlier to go into something completely different. That's like, is this even connected at this point? I guess it is. You know what I mean? I mean, how infinite describes it, it's all connected. So, and if it is all connected,

[01:39:46] then, you know, there, there should be something a little bit more there when it comes to connecting it to say the first half of the game. Yeah. It's almost kind of like how final fantasy 16, like, you know, there's a lot of like stuff about slavery and there's a lot of stuff about like, you know, stuff like, you know, in that, in that final fantasy world. But then by the end of the game, you forget about that shit. It's like, okay, whatever, what slavery, were we talking about that? Whatever. Let's go attack and dethrone God. Okay.

[01:40:16] I guess, which is fine, but it's just like, weren't we going to end slavery or something? Or like, I mean, not that Bioshock infinite ever proposed that they were going to end racism with, by shooting everybody at the same time. Like, man, I, I don't know, man, whatever. Is it your big issue when like pieces of media, you say like slavery or racism as like a plot device. I don't mind that. I just don't like when it's just kind of forgotten about. It's just like, here it is in the background.

[01:40:45] We're going to do it so strongly, especially like we said, Bioshock infinite is not subtle, right? They, again, when all the science is say, protecting our race and protecting our racial period. Like you can't, I just don't think it's good when a game has a lot of imagery like that and doesn't do anything. I just, it just, it's, it's so flat. It's just very, very, very flat. And it's scared. It's cowardly. I can see that. That's how I, that's how I feel. And then the ending just, I don't know, everything's connected.

[01:41:15] Here are 1400 lighthouses. Here are a million versions of you and me in different art styles. And this, this lighthouse looks like this. I don't know, man, just what a, what a bummer. But then, you know, like I said, shortly before that, I got to command a fucking metal bird to fly through Zeppelins and destroy them while I get the rat-a-tat-tat shoot everybody. Well, well on my hook arm on one hand and then shooting everybody with the other.

[01:41:44] It's so fucking cool. That is cool. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know, man, that's just, that's Bioshock infinite. I guess the biggest, the, this might be the most conflicted I've ever been about a game. I genuinely do not know. I don't know what to say, but could you almost argue the game wants you to feel conflicted? Yeah, I think so. That in that case, the game did its job. I guess so. But man, I just,

[01:42:14] you're right. I just, I just wish I wanted a little more meat. Maybe like the two, like the couple who are talking in riddles, like the, you know, like the, the, the couple of your time, right? Maybe I wanted a little more of that or something like that. Again, I'm not one of those people who needs the game to tell me to overturn every single stone. I don't need to know everything. I think it's good if some stuff is left unsaid, right? But this was too much. This was too much for me. Yeah. It, it, it, it was too vague that you're just like,

[01:42:44] what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. You want to tell me about the, you want to tell me about the DLC because I didn't play it. Oh boy. Uh, burial. So, so Bioshock infinite burial. Let's see. It is a two part, uh, single player expansion. And basically its main premise is to more directly connect Columbia and rapture. So like, so at the end, of infinite, as you said, you go to rapture and it feels like it was more of like a fan service thing. And this tries to do something a little bit more connected with it.

[01:43:13] So episode one, it's a, you, you jumped to the fifties. Okay. So, uh, Elizabeth asks the private investigator, Booker DeWitt to investigate the disappearance of a young girl named Sally. And so you go to rapture, like when it's like right before everything goes to shit. Right. Okay. And so you, you walk around, you meet Sander Cohen, like you, you, you hang out with him for a little bit, which is pretty cool. Um, cause he knows where Sally is. And you go to the Fontaine department store,

[01:43:42] which is where like a Fontaine was like having like his main sort of rebellion and Ryan like sunk it. And so you're kind of transported there to find Sally. And so you look around and find her. And then when you do find her, in fact, you actually fight a big daddy, which in like the Bioshock infinite style gameplay, you fight a big daddy, which is kind of, wow, that's, yeah, that's super cool. Actually, it's actually pretty cool. And then you, you find Sally, um, cause you're trying to like get her out of the vents. And then you see that she's like a little sister. Okay. Um,

[01:44:12] which kind of like freaks you out. And then Booker suddenly gets like flashbacks to when he's Comstock. And so, um, and you find out that like, Oh, like, you know, Comstock essentially, uh, stole Anna or Elizabeth from the, from the twins. Okay. From infinite. So essentially like the two twins that you see, apparently they're like the, um, like they're like actually like husband and wife and they actually gave birth to Anna,

[01:44:40] but then Comstock steals Anna and renames her Elizabeth. And that is like her daughter basically. Wow. And so you learn that. And then the big daddy basically drills you right in the fucking chest and you die. Game over. That's it. And that's episode one. Oh, so there's episode two, episode two. So episode one's like, you'd be like two hours. It's kind of whatever. Like people didn't really seem to care for it all that much, but episode two is quite different.

[01:45:10] Okay. So episode two, you're Elizabeth. Ooh, the whole time. And the gameplay actually gets a noticeable change because with Elizabeth, the game wants you now to be stealthy. So you don't get a lot of ammo, but you're able to sort of like duck and sort of evade people. And you can sneak up on people and bash them with shit as well to knock them out. Um, you can like, you know how she was like picking locks the whole time as well. Like you can now, like they give you a little lock picking mini game, which is kind of cool.

[01:45:40] Um, and, and they changed some stuff up. Like you start out, like you're in Paris, you know, cause she was talking about how she always wanted to go to Paris. Right. Right. But then that's sort of like fades away. And then you find yourself, um, like in, uh, you find yourself in rapture, um, you know, trying to essentially, you know, find Sally and all this other stuff. Right. But then you open a portal into, uh, Columbia because there's a scientist who's like, all my shit's in Columbia. You need to go there and get it.

[01:46:08] And so you go there and get it. Um, and then you bring it back to him. Um, yeah. Like here, let me see. Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. Elizabeth finds her own dead body and realized she's been killed by a big daddy and returning to a universe where she died. All other alternate versions of herself have collapsed. She has lost her previous ability to see through the multiverse and is unsure why she has decided to return to rapture. So in the lab, you find that portal to Columbia. She hypothesizes that by acquiring some of the particles that keep Columbia float,

[01:46:38] she can lift Fontaine's building. She discovers that, uh, Yi Chong, Su, Su Chong, Su Chong. Oh, Su Chong. Yeah. Yeah. Su Chong and Columbia industrialist, Jeremiah Fink, they had shared, uh, technology co-developing big daddies and the songbird, which is what the Eagle was called. So you get to the Fontaine building, you're able to raise the store. And, uh, but, uh, but you like work out like a deal with Atlas, um, because Atlas is like captured Sally. Okay.

[01:47:07] And the only way he would free her is if like, cause in the year Atlas is real. Like you see Atlas, you interact with Atlas. He is now like a, like a character. He's not like a fake thing in Bioshock one. Right. And so you do that to sort of help him to get Sally back. And then, and that is like, you actually like talk to Andrew Ryan and he tries to like, you know, get you out of there. Um, but you of course get away from that. But, um, Elizabeth wakens, finds the city beset by civil war. After Atlas threatens to torture Sally,

[01:47:36] Elizabeth agrees to retrieve the ACE from Souchong's lab. Um, and then you find Souchong, he gets killed by a big daddy because he's, cause this is when they're trying to like, get the little sisters to imprint on the big daddies. Like it was like something that they worked out in a lab. I remember logs about that. Yeah. Yeah. And they, and like Souchong wasn't getting able to do it, but then he starts like picking on the, but you, you actually become responsible for, um, the big daddy's imprinting on the little sisters.

[01:48:04] Cause you find a big daddy in peril and there's some little sisters there. And then you, with the little sisters help the big daddy and that causes them to finally like imprint. So you kind of begin that relationship. Wow. And then when like Souchong is seeing what's going on, he gets mad at the little sisters and harms them. And then the big daddy just right in his fucking chest. Right. Wow. Okay. And with him is a coded message that Elizabeth realizes the ace in the hole, which is the phrase, would you kindly,

[01:48:32] which is the trigger phase that Souchong implanted in Jack, the protagonist from Bioshock. He had a name. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're Jack. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. So Atlas orders his men to make arrangements for Jack to come to rapture and then beats Elizabeth to death with a wrench. And her final moments, Elizabeth has a vision of the events that will come to pass, which is Jack coming to rapture, killing Ryan and Atlas and saving Sally and the other little sisters.

[01:48:57] So basically Elizabeth sacrifices herself in order to cause the events of Bioshock one to happen. And you sort of play that out and that's how it like tries to connect infinite to one by like Elizabeth using her multiverse stuff in order to trigger the events in rapture happening because she sees the only way this will actually work out is for her to die and causing Jack,

[01:49:19] the son of Ryan to actually come down and essentially fulfill his destiny of saving the little sisters and getting rid of rapture for good. Right. Wow. And it, and it is really fucking cool. And it is some really good storytelling. Like it's handled really well. The gameplay change is really nice. And getting to play as Elizabeth was a really nice step. Like it basically, it's like get rid of all that Booker DeWitt bullshit, all that Comstock bullshit here.

[01:49:46] We're going to like tell a story that's more directly tied to Bioshock one in the infinite style. And it's, and it's pretty good. People praise it really highly. And I totally get why it's pretty good. And it's much more meaty as a game than episode one was. Okay. That's so, that's so interesting. I never thought like the DLC of infinite would be fucking rapture, right? Like I just never, I just never assumed that would be the case. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. They,

[01:50:15] it felt like with the DLC, cause at the end of infinite, when they try to connect them and it feels kind of half-assed, this DLC is them being like, no, we can actually like directly connect these. Let's do it. And I think they handled it really well. Wow. Especially because it's like, they drop all the weird, like political stuff, uh, from Bioshock infinite. And they're just telling more of a direct story about rapture and everything. And I think that's why it works better.

[01:50:40] Cause it sort of allows itself to sort of sit in its own universe rather than trying to make a half-hearted point to the player. Yeah. That, that does sound more palatable. Cause I was instantly, I'm interested. Cause again, it sounds a little, I don't know if self-serving is the proper term, but it's more like, really, we're just going to go back to rapture. I mean, I thought this is a Bioshock infinite, but when you, that now that, but that sounds cool. That sounds actually cool. Now I actually want to see it. And if you have, as I said before with Bioshock too,

[01:51:10] if you have the complete edition, it's right there. So you can just jump right in and play it. And, and one little fun fact about infinite is there's like an unlockable, hard mode in there called 1999 mode. Okay. Which is meant to have, I think like evoke like, Oh, like back in the nineties when games were hard or whatever kind of dumb shit or whatever. Right. But you can unlock it at any point in the game or just when you're like, like in the main menu by, by the, the,

[01:51:38] by inputting a very famous code. Okay. Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right. Really? The fucking Konami code is in Bioshock infinite. Wow. Why? Why? That's so weird. Why not? I guess. The Konami codes in a lot of weird places, man. I just, I don't think I've ever seen an instance of the Konami code, not in a Konami game, I guess. Oh, there's a, there's a few of them. Yeah. That's the first one I've heard of. I'm sure, you know, that would be interesting to track down all of those.

[01:52:07] I'm sure there's a weird wiki on that. Someone's tracked them all down. I mean, yeah, there's like, like random websites that if you go to them and type in the Konami code stuff happens. That's so, that's so bizarre. Like you, like, do you know those, um, like little baby toys that are video game controllers? Yeah. If you input the Konami code on it, it does like a little special thing. That's, that's so fucking bizarre. That is, that is, uh, that's interesting. Okay. Yeah. That may be okay. Two hours on a Konami code and non Konami games, uh, next week.

[01:52:38] Okay. Well shit. I think we talked for two hours about Bioshock fucking infinite or damn near. So, uh, wow, we've re we've reached the end and it was, uh, it was exactly the conversation I thought we would have about it, but thank you. I'm so glad we played these games, uh, essentially together. I've been wanting to play them forever for forever. So yeah, me too. Um, I'm glad I finally got these out of the backlog. Yes. And, uh, thanks for talking about Bioshock infinite with me. Thanks for not, um, shrieking in terror when I said,

[01:53:08] uh, bad words and then, uh, Oh, that was, I was supposed to do. Oh no, please don't do that. Showcase my white fragility. You can showcase that next time. I'll show you it in the shower. Hold you up at dick point. Oh wait, did we already make that? We already make that joke. Okay. We're making it again. We're making it again. All right. Thank you everybody who listened to this entire, uh,

[01:53:35] trilogy of podcasts about the Bioshock trilogy. Don't hate us too much. Don't hate us too much. Uh, we had opinions, but I think they were, our opinions are the best opinions. Okay. What, what can I say? Some may say. It's subjective. Thank you for joining us. Check the description of this podcast to follow us on social media. See you next time. Bye. You've been listening to. Oh, Oh,

[01:54:07] Oh,