The Game Maker Series - The Hayseed Knight

[00:00:00] .

[00:00:10] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back for another episode of the Pre-Order Bonus

[00:00:13] podcast. I want to be host Cameron Warren. I'm joined by Jacob Price and today

[00:00:18] also our very special guest, Maxi Molina, creator of the

[00:00:23] creator of the Hayseed Knight visual novel, Choose Your Own Adventure Game

[00:00:28] out on Steam right now. Maxi, welcome into the show. How are you doing?

[00:00:34] I'm doing fine. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me today.

[00:00:37] I'm sorry for the tongue twister of a game that I made.

[00:00:42] I cannot pronounce it in my accent. I cannot pronounce my own game.

[00:00:46] I mean, I just do that with every... It's not that about the Hayseed Knight.

[00:00:51] No, it's... Thank you for coming on the show.

[00:00:55] As many of our listeners know, this is one of our Game Maker series

[00:00:59] of episodes where we're chatting with indie developers about the process

[00:01:04] of creating video games that is so difficult and so challenging,

[00:01:08] always fascinating to talk to developers like yourself.

[00:01:11] So we're super excited to have you on the show.

[00:01:14] Let's jump right in. Maxi, tell us where are you coming from?

[00:01:20] How you got into game development and kind of what gets you excited

[00:01:24] every day to get up and work on video games?

[00:01:27] That's a hard one right out of the bad, right?

[00:01:29] Because we live in an industry that is challenging to say that is.

[00:01:33] Extremely challenging, yeah.

[00:01:35] Every day you get up and you go like,

[00:01:38] I sure hope! I love games right now!

[00:01:42] Because I have to be here working on games.

[00:01:46] I have always loved games.

[00:01:48] That was a challenge. I do love games very much.

[00:01:51] I was always a very reclusive child so I was like,

[00:01:54] Games! Oh yeah, I love Donkey Kong! I love Spyro!

[00:01:58] I love games growing up.

[00:02:01] But thinking of making games, it was like a pipe dream, right?

[00:02:06] It didn't sound like something I could achieve in my little corner of Spain.

[00:02:10] I live in a place with nothing at all.

[00:02:13] It's a literal step. There's nothing at all.

[00:02:18] Unless you're a 60-year-old British tourist.

[00:02:23] Nice place to retire. Then you are in luck.

[00:02:26] You will love Alicante.

[00:02:28] But growing up, I knew I wanted to be an artist.

[00:02:32] I was like, yeah! I can do art! I will do art!

[00:02:35] No one believed I could do art. Everyone was like, you suck!

[00:02:38] Which, you know? That's foreshadowing.

[00:02:43] So it made me very mad and I thought,

[00:02:45] you know what? I'm going to prove it to you all!

[00:02:47] I can make art!

[00:02:49] So I became an iconic artist.

[00:02:51] Right out of high school, I was working in Game of Thrones.

[00:02:55] I was working on all this really high value...

[00:03:02] I forgot the word, but titles, named IPs!

[00:03:08] I worked on Batman, Superman and stuff.

[00:03:10] I was working in Blizzard, but I was 19 years old.

[00:03:15] The thing about being self-taught,

[00:03:17] the thing about having a chip on your shoulder,

[00:03:21] is that you never get taught how to do things in a reasonable, careful way.

[00:03:29] I was working 14 hours a day, being like,

[00:03:32] I have to prove that I am the fastest and the best!

[00:03:37] So by the time I was 21 years old, my wrist gave up on me.

[00:03:41] My wrist one day felt like it was being stabbed.

[00:03:45] And that was it for my comic career.

[00:03:47] I couldn't do art anymore.

[00:03:50] So you know, I'm 21 years old,

[00:03:52] I'm stuck to the end of my lease in Madrid.

[00:03:55] It's not a cheap lease at all.

[00:03:57] Well, it's cheap by American standards,

[00:03:59] but it's not cheap by Spanish standards.

[00:04:02] And I'm there like,

[00:04:04] okay, what do I do now?

[00:04:07] I need a career, which we...

[00:04:09] to get money.

[00:04:11] I'm gonna make animation.

[00:04:13] Wait, I can't animate.

[00:04:15] I'm gonna make a game.

[00:04:17] Yeah, but I don't have the skills for it.

[00:04:19] Visual novel?

[00:04:22] Seven years later, here we are today.

[00:04:24] Hello.

[00:04:26] I just kind of fell into games.

[00:04:30] So what I do in games basically is

[00:04:32] I do game direction, art direction

[00:04:34] and voice direction for several companies.

[00:04:37] What I like the most is voice direction.

[00:04:39] Voice direction really makes me happy.

[00:04:42] And that was the most

[00:04:45] falling to part of games.

[00:04:47] Because...

[00:04:49] Sorry, you're going to get here out of traffic for me.

[00:04:53] So...

[00:04:55] What I...

[00:04:57] What I wanted to do, I wanted voice acting

[00:04:59] but I had never directed a voice actor

[00:05:01] so what am I going to do?

[00:05:03] So I tried to get someone to direct them

[00:05:05] and I'm like, I'm gonna see what they're doing.

[00:05:07] I'm gonna see what they're doing. Oh my god, yay!

[00:05:09] And I jump into the call

[00:05:11] and I see this person is being

[00:05:13] trash towards the voice actor.

[00:05:15] Wow, okay.

[00:05:17] Never mind, I will do this myself.

[00:05:19] People have fun working together.

[00:05:21] We got a game with

[00:05:23] fantastic voice acting

[00:05:25] and you just kind of started getting me jobs

[00:05:27] like, hey, can you do the same for my project?

[00:05:29] Yes. Can you do art for me?

[00:05:31] No, but I can direct your artist.

[00:05:33] I can direct your stuff.

[00:05:35] I can pay me to tell people how to do things.

[00:05:38] And that's...

[00:05:40] That's us now.

[00:05:42] Hello, that's kind of like...

[00:05:44] Was that a good question? Did they get that right?

[00:05:47] No, I think they answered the question really well.

[00:05:49] Yeah, so voice acting

[00:05:51] I think is...

[00:05:53] This is actually probably out of all the developers

[00:05:55] we've interviewed, this is new for us.

[00:05:57] We haven't talked to anybody who has been involved

[00:05:59] in that side of games.

[00:06:01] And so what is it

[00:06:03] so much that you like about voice acting

[00:06:05] and what do you think people don't really know

[00:06:07] about directing voice acting

[00:06:09] that you would like them to know?

[00:06:11] To me, directing anything.

[00:06:13] It has three parts.

[00:06:15] One, taste, two, vision

[00:06:17] and three, communication.

[00:06:19] Taste, your taste can be taught.

[00:06:21] You will learn what you like, right?

[00:06:23] Like if I really like cartoons

[00:06:25] and I want things to sound cartoon,

[00:06:27] if I really like art,

[00:06:29] I want to do art.

[00:06:31] If I want things to sound cartoon,

[00:06:33] if I really like a serious kind of film

[00:06:35] then films will sound like they have their own sound.

[00:06:37] You have to feel what you like

[00:06:39] so that you can bring it to the table.

[00:06:41] If you don't like things

[00:06:43] how are you going to form any kind of opinion

[00:06:45] on what you're doing?

[00:06:47] Then there's vision.

[00:06:49] You have to think about how the whole thing

[00:06:51] will look together.

[00:06:53] Voice director is like a core director.

[00:06:55] Core conductor.

[00:06:57] Everyone's acting in their own key.

[00:06:59] Everyone's acting with their own style,

[00:07:01] with their own quirks.

[00:07:03] What you have to do is make sure that everyone

[00:07:05] sounds cohesive.

[00:07:07] They all belong in the same game,

[00:07:09] in the same story, in the same planet.

[00:07:11] And lastly, communication.

[00:07:13] If you know what you want

[00:07:15] but you can tell someone else

[00:07:17] then you have nothing.

[00:07:19] If you cannot figure out a good way

[00:07:21] to tell people what you like

[00:07:23] and what you want them to do

[00:07:25] there's nothing acting then.

[00:07:27] Ultimately it's a matter of...

[00:07:31] What I like about voice direction

[00:07:33] is that I have to be able to click

[00:07:35] with someone who I have never talked to before

[00:07:37] in a matter of seconds.

[00:07:39] I have to be able to...

[00:07:41] I have my own stuff

[00:07:43] that I like to do, I have my own style

[00:07:45] but if I'm telling someone

[00:07:47] like, okay give me more

[00:07:49] and they're like, but what is the motivation

[00:07:51] of the character?

[00:07:53] No matter how much I say it

[00:07:55] that's not going to click, right?

[00:07:57] So what's the middle point between

[00:07:59] the way I want to express myself

[00:08:01] and the way they need me to express

[00:08:03] what I want.

[00:08:05] So that kind of connection,

[00:08:07] the moment when everything clicks

[00:08:09] and the direction finally

[00:08:11] starts working

[00:08:13] I love that all voice direction.

[00:08:15] It's communication.

[00:08:17] It's getting to know

[00:08:19] someone else very, very quickly.

[00:08:21] And I've made a lot of

[00:08:23] really good friends

[00:08:25] over very bad games.

[00:08:27] Nothing makes you

[00:08:29] a friend faster than bonding over pain.

[00:08:31] So...

[00:08:35] First off, amazing story

[00:08:37] by the way also very sorry

[00:08:39] about your wrist.

[00:08:41] Are your wrists okay now?

[00:08:43] Can you... or no?

[00:08:45] I can do art for myself

[00:08:47] on my own pace but I will definitely...

[00:08:49] Production 14, yeah.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:53] That's over for me.

[00:08:55] Oh my goodness. Well, I mean

[00:08:57] I think sometimes crazy things

[00:08:59] happen that lead us into

[00:09:01] new different things and talk about

[00:09:03] the voice acting.

[00:09:05] Playing your game, the hay-seed night

[00:09:07] obviously fully voice acted

[00:09:09] great voice acting in there.

[00:09:11] Can you tell us a little bit...

[00:09:13] We're going to get into some deeper topics

[00:09:15] on the voice acting conversation but

[00:09:17] before we do that I wanted to ask you

[00:09:19] the process of... I mean you have no...

[00:09:21] Obviously you talk about you fell in the game development

[00:09:23] just kind of like, oh I think

[00:09:25] I'll just go do this. Tell us about the process

[00:09:27] of actually getting the hay-seed night made.

[00:09:29] Like how did you find the voice actors?

[00:09:31] Who did you work with

[00:09:33] to get the art completed?

[00:09:35] You've got these amazing

[00:09:37] caricatures in here.

[00:09:39] Everything that is not my voice is mine.

[00:09:41] Like everything that is not my voice.

[00:09:43] So the voice acting and the music

[00:09:45] I did not do because

[00:09:47] the music is

[00:09:49] half reality free, half commission

[00:09:51] and the voice acting is obviously not all me.

[00:09:53] Everything else I did myself.

[00:09:55] So all of it I made myself.

[00:09:57] Art, writing, script, GUI...

[00:09:59] All of it is made.

[00:10:01] I even did some sound design.

[00:10:03] So...

[00:10:05] What did you use for...

[00:10:07] Because we talked about

[00:10:09] what did you use for the development engine?

[00:10:11] Did you use like a pre-baked engine

[00:10:13] or did you use something...

[00:10:15] That is Rampai.

[00:10:17] Rampai is

[00:10:19] me?

[00:10:21] Yes, Rampai.

[00:10:23] Rampaithon.

[00:10:25] Oh, okay. Interesting.

[00:10:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:29] Rampai is like the visual novel engine

[00:10:31] because it's free.

[00:10:33] It's...

[00:10:35] You can...

[00:10:37] You can make visual novels with it

[00:10:39] but I was set on working it very badly.

[00:10:41] So I am very sorry to

[00:10:43] the creator because I

[00:10:47] not as sorry as other people have done

[00:10:49] but I was very set on

[00:10:51] misusing it to make cartoons

[00:10:53] that pass for visual novels.

[00:10:59] The process is basically like

[00:11:01] I have a story

[00:11:03] that I wrote, like a very personal story

[00:11:05] and I was like...

[00:11:07] It was written in Spanish but I wanted

[00:11:09] my American friends to read it

[00:11:11] and

[00:11:13] one day I was just like

[00:11:15] horsing around.

[00:11:17] I draw a mock-up

[00:11:19] of my character as a sprite.

[00:11:21] I draw a background

[00:11:23] and I put it together in the engine

[00:11:25] with some text

[00:11:27] and someone was like, oh that's obviously fake.

[00:11:29] Visual novels don't look that pretty

[00:11:31] and I was like...

[00:11:33] Welp! I guess I have to do this now!

[00:11:37] Is that a compliment?

[00:11:39] I feel like it's a compliment.

[00:11:41] I think he was just like

[00:11:43] actually like, no, that's clearly not real.

[00:11:45] That's a mock-up

[00:11:47] or something but it was actually

[00:11:49] an engine.

[00:11:51] It does look beautiful.

[00:11:53] I got to go back to something though for a second.

[00:11:55] How many characters do you voice actor in the game?

[00:11:57] Yourself?

[00:11:59] I am one.

[00:12:01] You went out and found

[00:12:03] people. Were these friends of yours?

[00:12:05] Did you go out on like

[00:12:07] network of voice actors?

[00:12:09] I knew no one. I knew nothing.

[00:12:11] I just started being like...

[00:12:15] I saw one voice actor following me on Twitter

[00:12:17] and I was like, hi!

[00:12:19] Can I get an audition?

[00:12:21] That's awesome.

[00:12:23] You used to do a comic dab of something, right?

[00:12:25] And he was like, can I announce it in the voice

[00:12:27] of this one character?

[00:12:29] And I was like, announce what?

[00:12:31] Sure.

[00:12:33] He made a whole thing like

[00:12:35] hmmm

[00:12:37] I have to do this now.

[00:12:39] So

[00:12:41] I was technically

[00:12:43] bullied myself into this basically.

[00:12:45] But yeah,

[00:12:47] after that I started like posting casting calls.

[00:12:49] Like, okay, these are the details.

[00:12:51] Like this character, this character, this character,

[00:12:53] this character is about this, this is that.

[00:12:55] Okay, come at me.

[00:12:57] There are several places on the internet

[00:12:59] where you can do auditions.

[00:13:01] Oh, okay.

[00:13:03] Most importantly, voice acting club,

[00:13:05] casting call club

[00:13:07] or you can do your own Google Docs shit

[00:13:09] and shit, sorry

[00:13:11] this is where it's going to be a problem.

[00:13:13] Google Docs

[00:13:15] see it

[00:13:17] and you know, like post it on Twitter or something.

[00:13:19] A lot of voice actors are on Twitter

[00:13:21] and they will see your stuff there but you know.

[00:13:23] To me

[00:13:25] I always say

[00:13:27] I've cast more people

[00:13:29] overseeing WTS

[00:13:31] than

[00:13:33] wow.

[00:13:35] Because you know, like if I say wow,

[00:13:37] you are the best in a long list of people

[00:13:39] who have done the same thing.

[00:13:41] If I say, what is this?

[00:13:43] I want to know it.

[00:13:45] How did you come to this conclusion

[00:13:47] about this character, right? So for example

[00:13:49] there's this one

[00:13:51] night character who is kind of like a joke.

[00:13:53] He has like a very big chin

[00:13:55] a very big chest, very big horns.

[00:13:57] You know, he's like Gastoni

[00:13:59] from like

[00:14:01] Belle

[00:14:03] and the Beast.

[00:14:05] So you know

[00:14:07] everyone was like

[00:14:11] and so I think someone goes like

[00:14:13] but babe, I love you

[00:14:15] and I was like what?

[00:14:17] What?

[00:14:21] And we need to get to know this person's brain

[00:14:23] like how did you come to this conclusion

[00:14:25] about the character?

[00:14:27] So that's the type of casting

[00:14:29] I like what I like to be surprised

[00:14:31] and that's the fun

[00:14:33] about voice actors.

[00:14:35] They breathe life into your character.

[00:14:37] Someone is making a choice

[00:14:39] that may be completely different from what you have in your mind

[00:14:41] and I think that being surprised

[00:14:43] is the most beautiful thing about

[00:14:45] casting, you know, like

[00:14:47] not everyone agrees

[00:14:49] but I really enjoy it

[00:14:51] just the moment where it's like

[00:14:53] what is this?

[00:14:55] What's with this choice? You know, why?

[00:14:57] An actor's job is making choices.

[00:15:01] I'm not going to get into that after what's about

[00:15:03] AI

[00:15:05] So

[00:15:07] An actor's job is very much making choices.

[00:15:09] So that's it, like when you hire someone

[00:15:11] to be your voice actor

[00:15:13] they're bringing in their whole life experience

[00:15:15] they're bringing in their very unique

[00:15:17] choices that only they could make

[00:15:19] about the character and I think that's

[00:15:21] beautiful and I really love it.

[00:15:23] That's cool. I love to hear that.

[00:15:25] So now I'm curious

[00:15:27] when you

[00:15:29] sent out a casting call, like how many people

[00:15:31] are auditioning for one role?

[00:15:33] So much. So many.

[00:15:35] So many people

[00:15:37] can be like, you know, like smaller things

[00:15:39] maybe I get like 400 auditions

[00:15:41] bigger things I can get thousands of them

[00:15:43] thousands upon thousands of them

[00:15:45] I was not ready for that

[00:15:47] There's a lot of people

[00:15:49] like in the end

[00:15:51] you get very good at telling what you want

[00:15:53] within a matter of like two or three seconds

[00:15:55] I can listen to two or three seconds

[00:15:57] and you can be like, no, no

[00:15:59] no, wait

[00:16:01] I continue, you know, like

[00:16:03] that's such a thing

[00:16:05] You're listening to literally like a thousand

[00:16:07] little audio clips from people

[00:16:09] Yeah, maybe they like

[00:16:11] a whole minute of them

[00:16:13] a whole minute of audio, you know

[00:16:15] and then I can only listen to two or three seconds

[00:16:17] so if I'm hearing like

[00:16:19] say for example the line is

[00:16:21] I want beef

[00:16:23] I don't know, sorry

[00:16:25] I can't I want beef

[00:16:27] I want the steak that you got

[00:16:29] so I want the steak

[00:16:31] no, I want the steak

[00:16:33] no, I want the steak

[00:16:35] what? Okay

[00:16:37] I want steak, you know, like something like

[00:16:39] something that's catching my attention

[00:16:41] okay, is the audio all right?

[00:16:43] Am I hearing a lot of background noise?

[00:16:45] Am I hearing a lot of static? Am I hearing a lot of reverb?

[00:16:47] You know, like that kind of thing

[00:16:49] I'm going to listen to it for two or three seconds

[00:16:51] if the acting catches my attention

[00:16:53] I'm going to listen more

[00:16:55] and be like, if it doesn't

[00:16:57] I have to keep going, keep going, keep going

[00:16:59] It's very

[00:17:01] it's like a throat

[00:17:03] you know, but it's a very like

[00:17:05] it gets very production line-ish

[00:17:07] when it's really, really big

[00:17:09] if it's smaller, I have the time to

[00:17:11] you know give everyone more

[00:17:13] space

[00:17:15] if I don't, it has to be like seconds

[00:17:17] I'm surprised that the volume

[00:17:19] of

[00:17:21] people that are excited about this

[00:17:23] I think this last year is like my first

[00:17:25] sort of deeper exposure

[00:17:27] like I always obviously knew like

[00:17:29] some of the top voice actor names

[00:17:31] like, oh my gosh

[00:17:33] what's the guy's name, Jake?

[00:17:35] Troy Baker

[00:17:37] you know, he's like

[00:17:39] I knew of that guy

[00:17:41] and Nolan North and some of the other ones

[00:17:43] and in this last year with like

[00:17:45] Winters Gate 3 and Final Fantasy 16

[00:17:47] they like really put

[00:17:49] kind of their voice actors out in a lot of

[00:17:51] marketing material and that became like a big

[00:17:53] so then it kind of exposed

[00:17:55] a lot more of that side of the coin

[00:17:57] and man, that is

[00:17:59] super fascinating to hear you talk about it

[00:18:01] I shouldn't be surprised that there's thousands of people

[00:18:03] submitting you know, just for

[00:18:05] even for like a small, you know, like a medium

[00:18:07] we all love voice acting

[00:18:09] everyone's like, oh I could

[00:18:11] voice act, I can do voices

[00:18:13] here are my Mickey Mouse impression

[00:18:15] no, no baby

[00:18:17] I don't want to hear your Mickey Mouse impression

[00:18:19] unless it's really good

[00:18:21] you know if it's like amazing I'll be like

[00:18:23] for the most part

[00:18:25] I don't want to hear anyone's impressions

[00:18:27] if you ever get like five voice acts in a room

[00:18:29] it will quickly evolve

[00:18:31] into an impression contest and it will be really bad

[00:18:35] is it a situation where

[00:18:37] there's like a huge amount of talent out there

[00:18:39] just lots and lots and lots of talent

[00:18:41] or are there really like

[00:18:43] you really have to dig

[00:18:45] to find like really exceptional

[00:18:47] talents like in voice acting

[00:18:49] I think

[00:18:51] most people

[00:18:53] with a bit of shine and exceptional

[00:18:55] and that's where I wanted to prove with the Hacid Knight

[00:18:57] the Hacid Knight is

[00:18:59] 99% of the people there are

[00:19:01] basically newbies

[00:19:03] in some cases they were like their little first role

[00:19:05] ever

[00:19:07] so I hired people who had never

[00:19:09] pretty much voice acting

[00:19:11] I only had like maybe a couple of roles

[00:19:13] or maybe one under the belts

[00:19:15] because I wanted to show people

[00:19:17] what you can do with good direction

[00:19:19] because it's like

[00:19:21] we say that in front of the mic

[00:19:23] you lose 50% of your talent

[00:19:25] because you get nervous

[00:19:27] right? like you're alone

[00:19:29] I think is reacting when you tell me something

[00:19:31] I react to it right?

[00:19:33] that's especially how it goes in theater

[00:19:35] when you are voice acting

[00:19:37] you are alone in front of the mic

[00:19:39] there's no one there

[00:19:41] to bounce the ideas off

[00:19:43] so as I directed that's where I give

[00:19:45] I give people like a wall to bounce

[00:19:47] energy off to try different angles

[00:19:49] to see what gives you the best performance

[00:19:51] and

[00:19:53] there's a thing like I think

[00:19:55] if we all have someone being like

[00:19:57] no yeah I actually want this

[00:19:59] we all will be fantastic right? but we don't

[00:20:01] so it's

[00:20:03] you get really good at telling

[00:20:05] who is going to make it really really far

[00:20:07] very quickly and who's going to be there

[00:20:09] for the long run but like

[00:20:11] there's a lot of really good talent

[00:20:13] who don't have

[00:20:15] the equipment for example right now

[00:20:17] and that's really sad because like

[00:20:19] if you listen to a Newgrounds game

[00:20:21] from 2010

[00:20:23] everyone sounds like they're under the sea

[00:20:25] and it's great you know no one cares

[00:20:27] everyone sounds like they're

[00:20:29] in a submarine and it's fantastic

[00:20:31] because you know no one cares

[00:20:33] but like people just keep raising

[00:20:35] the quality standards

[00:20:37] and that's a problem because

[00:20:39] talent can no longer

[00:20:41] come in it's being kept

[00:20:43] right? like it's like

[00:20:45] you can voice act on this you have like

[00:20:47] a road something something

[00:20:49] something microphone and

[00:20:51] the super ultra interface and your house

[00:20:53] doesn't have a single inch of reverb

[00:20:57] and that's thousands of dollars

[00:20:59] no you're a newbie

[00:21:01] you don't have to spend that

[00:21:03] you have to go through and directing

[00:21:05] not your room like yeah

[00:21:07] like fixing your room is important

[00:21:09] and you have to get to that in order to get bigger roles

[00:21:11] but like we're teaching people

[00:21:13] that you get into voice acting

[00:21:15] you have to spend thousands of dollars

[00:21:17] so it's really really difficult

[00:21:19] to get to that

[00:21:21] I'll sneak in a fun

[00:21:23] question before Jake gets us into more serious

[00:21:25] territory with AI and stuff

[00:21:27] what do you have a favorite

[00:21:29] video game voice performance

[00:21:31] that you just love

[00:21:33] I'm sure I do

[00:21:35] what comes to mind

[00:21:37] I wouldn't say it's my favorite

[00:21:39] voice acting in a game

[00:21:41] but I really love Persona 4

[00:21:43] like Persona 4

[00:21:45] got me into voice

[00:21:47] Persona 4 got me into

[00:21:49] English voice acting

[00:21:51] because I had never played anything

[00:21:53] in English before that

[00:21:55] I was 14 years old I was playing at 10

[00:21:57] years old

[00:21:59] on my emulator

[00:22:01] on my PC

[00:22:03] everyone talk

[00:22:05] like this

[00:22:07] but you know what I was like oh wow

[00:22:09] that's still so good

[00:22:11] they might have to cause an emotional reaction

[00:22:13] out of me even though I was not playing

[00:22:15] in great circumstances

[00:22:17] so I remember it very fondly

[00:22:19] I don't know if you would hold up

[00:22:21] if I played again but I really like it back then

[00:22:23] Jake won't be surprised by this

[00:22:25] so

[00:22:27] bouldersgate 3 obviously has a ton of amazing voice acting

[00:22:29] but my favorite

[00:22:31] is Raphael

[00:22:33] the devil

[00:22:35] in the game

[00:22:37] if you haven't just go on youtube

[00:22:39] and type in like

[00:22:41] bouldersgate 3 Raphael

[00:22:43] dude I could sit there and listen to that guy talk

[00:22:45] it's so good

[00:22:47] that's a really good one to pick

[00:22:49] I wanted to

[00:22:51] sneak in one more question before we get

[00:22:53] into AI

[00:22:55] I loved hearing you talk about

[00:22:57] what a director does with voice actors

[00:22:59] and

[00:23:01] what I would like you to say

[00:23:03] maybe give one tip to the casual listener

[00:23:05] how can you hear the difference

[00:23:07] between good

[00:23:09] direction and voice acting

[00:23:11] because I think a lot of times

[00:23:13] we conflate like

[00:23:15] acting and direction and it's hard to kind of

[00:23:17] parse out where was the director's role

[00:23:19] in this and where was the voice actors role

[00:23:21] like what would be the one tip

[00:23:23] that's the Hayden Christensen Star Wars

[00:23:25] conversation always right

[00:23:27] was it direction or was it acting

[00:23:29] hey Max if you have an answer to that question

[00:23:31] just solve the in-depth problem for us

[00:23:33] here's the thing right

[00:23:35] if one actor

[00:23:37] only one actor sounds bad

[00:23:39] in the production that's bad acting

[00:23:41] if everyone sounds bad in the production

[00:23:43] that's bad direction

[00:23:47] good direction is a bit more subtle

[00:23:49] good direction I feel is

[00:23:51] when everyone feels cohesive

[00:23:53] purposeful

[00:23:55] purposeful

[00:23:57] purposeful

[00:24:03] and you know like you can feel like

[00:24:05] everyone even though most people are

[00:24:07] probably like recorded separately

[00:24:09] everyone feels like they're in the same room

[00:24:11] everyone feels like they're talking to each other

[00:24:13] you know I think that's good direction

[00:24:15] when you can tell everything is the

[00:24:17] same universe and everything feels

[00:24:19] right and alive

[00:24:21] that's good direction

[00:24:23] if things if it's like

[00:24:25] I want an apple

[00:24:27] what an apple

[00:24:29] yeah I want an apple

[00:24:31] you know so in just like a

[00:24:33] disconnect like it's like

[00:24:35] you know you're not getting the same

[00:24:37] vibes from these people

[00:24:39] bad direction probably

[00:24:43] but yeah I empathize with the feeling

[00:24:45] of like sometimes

[00:24:47] an actor for whatever reason

[00:24:49] you are stuck working with someone

[00:24:51] you will not have cast

[00:24:53] and you try to make the best of it

[00:24:55] and sometimes you cannot succeed

[00:24:57] and it's like I understand

[00:24:59] but like

[00:25:02] if there's one bad actor

[00:25:04] it's bad acting or one bad

[00:25:06] direction that's a good world film

[00:25:08] I'll let the listeners decide

[00:25:10] on hating Christians in them

[00:25:12] continue to say I think

[00:25:14] he was encouraged to be

[00:25:16] edgy and sad

[00:25:18] just to denote to a place

[00:25:20] that people

[00:25:22] that maybe only George Lucas liked

[00:25:24] that's my thought

[00:25:26] you have an answer good this is good

[00:25:28] alright Maxi I really appreciate

[00:25:30] the conversation we've had so far

[00:25:32] I feel much more grounded

[00:25:34] in what voice acting

[00:25:36] how that happens

[00:25:38] when it comes to games and just kind of broadly

[00:25:40] so now let's dig into the big problem

[00:25:42] why is AI such a monkey

[00:25:44] wrench then when it comes into voice

[00:25:46] acting how does it throw off

[00:25:48] that system

[00:25:50] well here's the thing right let's

[00:25:52] let's assume a perfect world

[00:25:54] in which voice

[00:25:56] you know like we are not being

[00:25:58] our voice is not being stolen from

[00:26:00] voice bank let's assume that

[00:26:02] that AI was completely

[00:26:04] ethical right okay

[00:26:10] do you really want

[00:26:12] a text to voice

[00:26:14] that's what you want do you want this text

[00:26:16] to speech or do you want acting

[00:26:18] because you know like yes

[00:26:20] AI is getting much better at reproducing tone

[00:26:22] it's like

[00:26:24] sometimes you can even get

[00:26:26] passing stuff from it

[00:26:28] and it is the most planned

[00:26:30] soulless stuff you can get

[00:26:32] because this AI is not

[00:26:34] making any choices

[00:26:36] it's doing what you've told

[00:26:38] it to say but it's

[00:26:40] not bringing anything else to the table

[00:26:42] you know

[00:26:44] someone told me many years ago

[00:26:46] that oh my god sorry

[00:26:48] I allowed motorbike waiting

[00:26:50] someone told me many years ago

[00:26:52] that style

[00:26:54] is your lived experiences

[00:26:56] plus

[00:26:58] random mutation

[00:27:00] you know like

[00:27:02] you improve and you get better

[00:27:04] because something unexpected

[00:27:06] brum brum sorry

[00:27:08] it's

[00:27:10] I love souped up motorbikes in my town

[00:27:14] can you hear it

[00:27:16] yeah it's not too loud

[00:27:18] you're fine

[00:27:20] your old British tours have to live for something

[00:27:24] sorry so yeah like

[00:27:26] what happens is

[00:27:28] there's no random variation

[00:27:30] when you have an AI

[00:27:32] you know when people ask like a thousand

[00:27:34] prompts because they want to see what's the best thing

[00:27:36] you cannot do that with an actor

[00:27:38] with an actor you have to commit

[00:27:40] you have to commit to the

[00:27:42] you cannot have an actor working like

[00:27:44] like a mule working like

[00:27:46] oh no say it again say it again

[00:27:48] say it again a thousand times more until you get what it wants

[00:27:50] you cannot do that

[00:27:52] so what you do is you get good

[00:27:54] steering what you want and getting very

[00:27:56] precise about what you want and then committing

[00:27:58] even if it's not your favorite thing

[00:28:00] you have to commit and that will inform

[00:28:02] everything about what's

[00:28:04] going on until you next

[00:28:06] you don't have that when you're using

[00:28:08] an extra speed translator

[00:28:10] it's like you are depriving someone

[00:28:12] and you're depriving yourself

[00:28:14] of the chance to

[00:28:16] woo you with their very unique

[00:28:18] choices of surprising you

[00:28:20] with doing it even better than you thought they could

[00:28:22] of coming at you

[00:28:24] in a completely different direction that you would never have expected

[00:28:26] and be like oh I actually

[00:28:28] like that better that's actually better than my idea

[00:28:30] and I can never do that for you

[00:28:32] you know that's like

[00:28:34] you know even if we live in a world

[00:28:36] where AI is not

[00:28:38] getting the jobs

[00:28:40] that people were already

[00:28:42] being really mean about

[00:28:44] like being like I can pay you like a dollar

[00:28:46] for this

[00:28:48] even if it was not the case

[00:28:50] people

[00:28:53] a lot of people don't care a lot of companies

[00:28:55] do not care they just want

[00:28:57] the cheap quick option

[00:28:59] I don't care

[00:29:01] that's people suffering you know

[00:29:03] that's a lot of people who are going hungry

[00:29:07] something that comes to mind

[00:29:09] I'll do this real quick

[00:29:11] I love this answer and maybe

[00:29:13] just realize I guess how important

[00:29:15] because you're coming from this conversation

[00:29:17] with somebody who's done directing and voice acting

[00:29:19] but that relationship between director

[00:29:21] and actor right that relationship disappears

[00:29:23] when there's not an actor in the room

[00:29:25] right yeah because

[00:29:27] what was it that you said that

[00:29:29] you know that the ideal is lived experience plus a random

[00:29:31] mutation

[00:29:33] you lose the lived experience and the random

[00:29:35] mutation when you lose the actor

[00:29:37] so what does the director do

[00:29:39] I mean you still obviously have a job but it just feels diminished

[00:29:41] so that's kind of what I got from your response

[00:29:43] interesting

[00:29:45] I think there is no directing

[00:29:47] AI

[00:29:49] because like the next time

[00:29:51] AI cannot edit

[00:29:53] AI does not edit

[00:29:55] AI cannot

[00:29:57] I mean if you

[00:29:59] get on a very conceptual level

[00:30:01] it only averages right

[00:30:03] so like

[00:30:05] if I make another prompt for example

[00:30:07] it's not going to be the feedback I added

[00:30:09] it's just going to be a different thing

[00:30:11] right

[00:30:13] so

[00:30:15] to me AI affects me in a lot of levels because I've worked

[00:30:17] art, I've worked translation, I've worked

[00:30:19] voice acting

[00:30:23] so in all these fields

[00:30:25] there's always the same

[00:30:27] AI will not make any choices

[00:30:29] AI will just give you the most

[00:30:31] planned average stuff possible every single time

[00:30:35] and we can all recognize

[00:30:37] AI, sometimes by the mistakes

[00:30:41] I can think

[00:30:43] an

[00:30:45] AI

[00:30:47] image can be good looking

[00:30:49] because that is not the point

[00:30:51] the point is that it's lacking purpose

[00:30:53] there's never going to be

[00:30:55] a thing that it's telling you

[00:30:57] and that's

[00:30:59] I think that's the most scary thing

[00:31:01] because

[00:31:03] people don't have the kind of

[00:31:05] literacy

[00:31:07] to see this kind of stuff

[00:31:09] like a random person

[00:31:11] looking at art is going to be like

[00:31:13] oh pretty and that's it

[00:31:15] a random person listening to

[00:31:17] voices is going to be like

[00:31:19] ha

[00:31:21] it's kind of

[00:31:23] kind of quirky but okay

[00:31:25] a random person looking at the translation is going to be like

[00:31:29] it's okay I guess

[00:31:31] do we want

[00:31:33] to settle for the most

[00:31:35] boring

[00:31:37] blandest

[00:31:39] lifeless

[00:31:41] slop to consume

[00:31:43] for our lives

[00:31:45] is that the kind of world we want to make

[00:31:47] is that the kind of art we want in the world

[00:31:51] that's what really makes me sad

[00:31:53] about AI

[00:31:55] yeah so go ahead

[00:31:57] I think you're 100%

[00:31:59] right although I do see

[00:32:01] a world

[00:32:03] where tell me what you think about this

[00:32:05] I'm curious if you think there is a world

[00:32:07] where they can work together in positive ways

[00:32:09] meaning like

[00:32:11] you bring in an actor, you work with them

[00:32:13] you do direction with them

[00:32:15] is there a place

[00:32:17] like where you use

[00:32:19] you could use AI to improve that process

[00:32:21] make your process faster

[00:32:23] what are your thoughts on that

[00:32:25] absolutely not

[00:32:27] I am a director and what I like to do is direct

[00:32:29] and an actor

[00:32:31] what they would like to do is act

[00:32:33] I would suppose otherwise you don't get into this kind of

[00:32:35] curry here

[00:32:37] I don't want

[00:32:39] I don't want the AI to tell me what is the

[00:32:43] technically by some kind of

[00:32:45] random algorithm the best

[00:32:47] take to choose

[00:32:49] you know like

[00:32:51] I want the AI to clean up the river

[00:32:53] that's what I wanted to do

[00:32:55] so they don't have to spend thousands of dollars

[00:32:57] on treating a room so there is no river

[00:32:59] that's what I wanted to do

[00:33:01] that's the right use of it

[00:33:03] do the mechanical stuff for me

[00:33:05] I want the AI

[00:33:07] as a tool

[00:33:09] as an actual tool to service

[00:33:11] I wanted to do my job for me

[00:33:13] I wanted to be able to do the integrity

[00:33:15] I wanted to do my taxes

[00:33:17] I don't want it to do the art for me

[00:33:23] looking forward

[00:33:25] what I see probably happening is

[00:33:27] the big dogs, big huge companies

[00:33:29] they are going to have

[00:33:31] continue to have

[00:33:33] top talent voice actors

[00:33:35] for main roles but

[00:33:37] I do see a world

[00:33:39] where you've got

[00:33:41] 100 NPCs that all have

[00:33:43] an AI voice and I think that's probably

[00:33:45] the direction we are heading in

[00:33:47] instead of going out and getting

[00:33:49] 6 voice actors to each do

[00:33:51] 4 different voices each

[00:33:53] they are just going to use an AI and create 100 voices

[00:33:55] which

[00:33:57] you know that's still a little icky

[00:33:59] because you're taking jobs away from people

[00:34:01] that could bring something special

[00:34:05] to a piece of art

[00:34:07] which video games are and that's how we think of them

[00:34:09] so

[00:34:11] I think hopefully

[00:34:13] in the future

[00:34:15] people will see that and be able to recognize

[00:34:17] the difference but I don't know

[00:34:19] maybe not, maybe it's

[00:34:21] yeah

[00:34:23] we are

[00:34:25] starting to get legislation

[00:34:27] for AI which is a good step

[00:34:29] they're starting to be like bigger

[00:34:31] low suites, bigger stuff

[00:34:33] to regulate the use of it

[00:34:37] I don't think

[00:34:39] it's a matter of like

[00:34:41] oh it's always going to be used like this

[00:34:43] I think

[00:34:45] a lot of people

[00:34:47] maybe like

[00:34:49] a few people maybe into

[00:34:51] the idea of passive

[00:34:53] income where they lend their voices

[00:34:55] to an AI

[00:34:57] and every time it gets used

[00:34:59] to get some money

[00:35:01] but

[00:35:03] to me that's such a boring way

[00:35:05] of going about your life

[00:35:07] and I'm sure why someone may do it

[00:35:09] if they're desperate or like

[00:35:11] if they book so much

[00:35:13] they don't even need to show up

[00:35:15] but that's a thing like

[00:35:17] that's where your solidarity comes in

[00:35:19] if I get a job

[00:35:21] I cannot do because I'm too busy

[00:35:23] I like to be able to say

[00:35:25] I cannot do it

[00:35:27] but here's my friend who is kind of like

[00:35:29] need a job right now and they may be able to do it

[00:35:31] I think like when you lose that in an industry

[00:35:33] you may as well have an assembly line

[00:35:35] you know what I mean? That's kind of like

[00:35:37] 100%

[00:35:39] they want to

[00:35:41] creative processes are

[00:35:43] wild

[00:35:45] and difficult and expensive and weird

[00:35:47] and

[00:35:49] I feel like big companies have always been on their own crusade

[00:35:51] to try and make things make sense

[00:35:53] and they don't

[00:35:55] big companies don't think about the network effects

[00:35:57] I think in the example I just gave it's like

[00:35:59] okay some small voice actor gets

[00:36:01] a tiny role on the next

[00:36:03] Bethesda game as NPC number 12

[00:36:05] but then that launches their career

[00:36:07] and then they become like a huge

[00:36:09] you know actor

[00:36:11] 10 years later that now doesn't happen

[00:36:13] because you don't have those network effects

[00:36:15] because they're like oh no we're just going to use the AI

[00:36:17] so yeah it's

[00:36:19] tough world

[00:36:21] some of the biggest people I know in voice acting

[00:36:23] I met through random jams

[00:36:25] where I was like what are you doing here

[00:36:29] why are you here

[00:36:31] this is a

[00:36:33] a duty jam

[00:36:35] where we're making a game

[00:36:37] about space lesbians

[00:36:39] why are you here

[00:36:41] it's very random

[00:36:43] there's

[00:36:45] another big voice actor

[00:36:47] who is a furry

[00:36:49] and I was like

[00:36:51] why are you here

[00:36:53] the very little things where you meet people

[00:36:55] through the smallest connections

[00:36:57] the smallest chances

[00:36:59] that's the beauty of it right

[00:37:01] if someone had been using AI

[00:37:03] in the one jam game

[00:37:05] where I met these people

[00:37:07] they wouldn't have met them

[00:37:09] and they wouldn't have gotten the chance to say

[00:37:11] oh yeah actually

[00:37:13] this voice actor voice in our game

[00:37:15] you miss all the

[00:37:17] beautiful stuff about creation

[00:37:19] meh

[00:37:21] but yeah

[00:37:25] there is may rant on that

[00:37:27] we're pretty close to time

[00:37:29] we have a lot of questions to throw out maxi

[00:37:31] before we end the show

[00:37:33] I don't think so

[00:37:35] I think you're safe

[00:37:37] it's been an interesting conversation

[00:37:39] for sure just because

[00:37:41] from my personal experience

[00:37:43] voice acting as an industry is one of those things that I'm super ignorant of

[00:37:45] and

[00:37:47] I think that's maybe one of the

[00:37:49] interesting things not the word I'm looking for

[00:37:51] but maybe one of the scary things about AI is

[00:37:53] these industries that most people are ignorant of

[00:37:55] it's very easy

[00:37:57] for us to not see how they get impacted

[00:37:59] by conversations like this

[00:38:01] before we were recording we talked a little bit about

[00:38:03] translation which as an industry

[00:38:05] has been rocked severely in the past

[00:38:07] 10 years right

[00:38:09] most people don't even bad a night because it's something that they don't understand

[00:38:11] so I don't really have a question in there

[00:38:13] more of a comment

[00:38:15] well we want to give a huge

[00:38:17] thank you maxi

[00:38:19] thank you so much for coming on the show

[00:38:21] super fascinating conversation

[00:38:23] new element that we discussed today on the voice acting piece

[00:38:25] always super fun to dig into

[00:38:27] new topics maxi where's the best place for

[00:38:29] people to find you and follow the work that you're doing

[00:38:33] currently on twitter

[00:38:35] that'd be at

[00:38:37] sandra mj dev

[00:38:39] um because that is my old name

[00:38:41] so sandra as in the name

[00:38:43] mj

[00:38:45] dev

[00:38:47] that is the one thank you so much

[00:38:49] other than that

[00:38:51] you can get my game on each

[00:38:53] it's ayo or steam

[00:38:55] there we go yes the hayseed night

[00:38:57] on steam on itch.io go check that out

[00:38:59] ivan planet

[00:39:01] very cool visual novel especially if you like

[00:39:03] visual novels go check that out

[00:39:05] amazing art and fully voice acted

[00:39:07] and very highly rated

[00:39:09] yes absolutely

[00:39:11] well

[00:39:13] it is very good

[00:39:15] well maxi thank you so much for joining the show

[00:39:17] for those listening thank you so much

[00:39:19] for tuning in

[00:39:21] for more of our episodes on your podcast platform

[00:39:23] of choice

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[00:39:31] if you want to support us even more

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[00:39:45] thank you so so much for listening

[00:39:47] and have a great night