Cyberpunk 2077

[00:00:00] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Pre-Order Bonus podcast.

[00:00:15] I'm one of your hosts, Cameron Warren, and I'm joined as always by the Pixel Professor,

[00:00:22] Jacob Price.

[00:00:23] Jake, how are you doing?

[00:00:24] Doing pretty well.

[00:00:26] Jake, let me throw this at you.

[00:00:32] Neil Druckmann.

[00:00:33] Oh, dude.

[00:00:35] Eddie Dog, director, Last of Us Uncharted 5, now film producer, writer extraordinaire

[00:00:44] on The Last of Us TV show, says his next game could redefine mainstream perceptions

[00:00:51] of gaming.

[00:00:52] Give me your thoughts.

[00:00:55] Like, okay.

[00:00:56] Okay.

[00:00:57] Okay.

[00:00:58] I think I've got a few things here and this is kind of taken right, the gamersphere

[00:01:05] in social media by Storm, this quote he has about this.

[00:01:11] I think this is indicative of a problem that is parallel with the Game Awards, which

[00:01:18] is why do video games need the movie industry's approval?

[00:01:25] And I think I have a few answers to why there's sort of this chip on the shoulder

[00:01:30] of some of these folks.

[00:01:32] One, movies make less money.

[00:01:34] So if it comes down to it's not money, right?

[00:01:36] It's not money that these people are worried about.

[00:01:40] It's prestige and...

[00:01:42] Do the...

[00:01:44] I think you're right on that, but I would argue maybe the people in positions of

[00:01:49] power involved in the production of those vehicles potentially make more, like producers

[00:01:58] and so on.

[00:01:59] I think that's fair.

[00:02:01] Just as a quick sign out, but I know where you're going.

[00:02:03] I think we don't need to measure wallets here and I don't think that's actually what's

[00:02:09] happening.

[00:02:10] I think you have the video game industry, and listen, video games have been around

[00:02:14] for like 50 years, but the history of video games as a medium is quite different than

[00:02:22] cinema's history.

[00:02:23] Sorry everybody, we're going to trip down memory lane.

[00:02:26] We're going to discuss some history of art here for a sec.

[00:02:31] Film has been around in the popular, I would say consensus, in the popular mind for about

[00:02:39] a hundred years.

[00:02:41] For about a hundred years it's existed.

[00:02:43] There have been motion pictures, moving pictures probably documented from before that.

[00:02:48] But like a hundred years ago we're pretty firmly couched in the silent era of film

[00:02:53] and we're just moving with all the technological leaps and bounds that come in the decades

[00:02:57] after that.

[00:02:58] I think starting in the 50s, I mean Oscars have been around for nearly that long as

[00:03:05] well, but I feel like starting in the 50s we start seeing a little more happening with

[00:03:11] different genres.

[00:03:12] I feel like 50s, you have 50s sci-fi which is very specific sci-fi.

[00:03:16] You have classic monsters getting all these films and then kind of snowballing from

[00:03:20] the 50s onwards.

[00:03:22] You can kind of define cinematic history roughly by decades and by genres and sort of how

[00:03:27] things have grown and expanded.

[00:03:29] And they've had this award ceremony called the Oscars, you've heard of it, I've already

[00:03:34] mentioned it right, to accompany sort of that growing, how the industry has grown

[00:03:40] and how it's shaped into what it is today.

[00:03:43] Video games have been around for 50 years but they have not entered the public like

[00:03:48] a mindset consciousness the same way as film.

[00:03:52] Film way back in like the 20s, a lot of it was being leveraged by the government as

[00:03:57] propaganda bits.

[00:03:58] And when you went to go see like a motion picture, very often you would see like

[00:04:03] short films before it.

[00:04:05] You'd actually see maybe a short film in intermission and this is like ads or

[00:04:09] propaganda from the government that's like a part of the film experience.

[00:04:14] But also really wasn't until about the 50s or 60s.

[00:04:16] It wasn't really until about Alfred Hitchcock that people actually went to a movie to

[00:04:21] see a movie start to finish.

[00:04:22] People did a lot more culturally, there was a lot more drop in drop out.

[00:04:26] And I just feel like with video games, they've been around sure for about 50

[00:04:32] years, but it wasn't really until like arcades.

[00:04:34] I believe that video games really started entering public space, like firmly had

[00:04:39] a space where you're supposed to be.

[00:04:41] And it very much parallels this early film like drop in drop out type of

[00:04:45] experience. And then you have home consoles right in the 80s and then you kind

[00:04:50] of have video games where we are today.

[00:04:52] So I would say like culturally, video games are crazy young.

[00:04:56] I think they've been in the public conscious for about 30 years, right?

[00:05:01] Ever since they actually carved out a public space for themselves the same way

[00:05:04] that film was carved out its own public space with like theaters and just

[00:05:08] going to the cinema.

[00:05:10] And there's always been some sort of perception.

[00:05:14] I think a part of this is actually linguistically based because you play video

[00:05:18] games and in a lot of cultures, play is relegated to something that children do

[00:05:23] that requires imagination and abstract sort of creative thinking, things that

[00:05:28] are intellectually considered to be inferior.

[00:05:32] You know, they're not productive like creativity rarely associated with

[00:05:35] productivity. It's really associated with being a lucrative model or a viable

[00:05:41] model for financial success, for familiar familial success, etc.

[00:05:46] So super roundabout way of getting to where we're at with Neil Druckmann's

[00:05:49] comment here about he feels like this is still a hurdle that video games as

[00:05:55] an industry needs to jump over and that haven't been able to.

[00:06:02] And my biggest issue with this is apples and oranges, man.

[00:06:07] Why does video games as an industry, as an art form need to compete in the

[00:06:13] same race as film?

[00:06:16] I just simply don't think it needs to.

[00:06:19] And when you start getting, I think I'll start getting more attention from

[00:06:23] the film industry and other industries.

[00:06:26] As soon as video games start being more, start honing in on what a video

[00:06:30] game can do and not when other art forms can do.

[00:06:33] End of history lesson.

[00:06:37] I love it.

[00:06:41] You think Neil Druckmann thinks of himself as more of a film producer now

[00:06:46] than a game director?

[00:06:50] I mean, it's very clear that he loves his new job and not that he doesn't

[00:06:55] have it. I mean, he still has his old job, but he really likes being a

[00:07:01] film guy. Like from all the interviews and like all the stuff, it's like he's

[00:07:05] he's digging that.

[00:07:06] I mean, I don't know.

[00:07:10] I don't know if this is a case of like you've got your, you know,

[00:07:14] straddling a line and you're kind of into industries at one point.

[00:07:18] I'm kind of like, listen, man, if you just want to make the leap to

[00:07:21] film, just do it.

[00:07:22] No one no one's holding you back.

[00:07:24] Go for it. Right.

[00:07:25] And I think something probably the person who actually does straddle this

[00:07:30] line best in sort of the outer video game industry is none other than Kojima.

[00:07:35] Right. Kojima actually hasn't made a film, but the man wears his love for

[00:07:42] film on his sleeve.

[00:07:44] Right. And you can see that.

[00:07:46] Yeah. He still makes those reveal trailers and that's yeah.

[00:07:49] Yeah. Like it is super clear.

[00:07:51] But I mean, Druckmann was on set for The Last of Us and like was a

[00:07:55] producer and wrote the show.

[00:07:58] And like I think he maybe even directed a couple of episodes if I'm not mistaken.

[00:08:01] I think you're right.

[00:08:02] I remember the same things.

[00:08:03] And listen, I know there's some people who don't like him and they'd love to

[00:08:06] kick him out of the industry.

[00:08:08] I don't mean to say that unless, you know, I don't have really super strong

[00:08:11] opinions on the guy, but it's like, dude, if you just, if you want to,

[00:08:15] if you want to make a film, man, just do it.

[00:08:18] Like, don't don't feel like you owe it to Naughty Dog.

[00:08:22] Don't feel like you owe it to the gamers.

[00:08:24] Like, do what you want to do.

[00:08:26] And if that's a film, do a freaking film, man.

[00:08:30] I have nothing against Neil Druckmann.

[00:08:32] I mean, he's a brilliant, super accomplished dude who's made some of the

[00:08:36] most incredible games like ever made.

[00:08:38] Obviously, like there's no what, however you feel about Uncharted and Last

[00:08:42] of Us, like their genre defining like their mainstay,

[00:08:46] like their tentpole games like in this in gaming, like as gaming stands.

[00:08:51] Right.

[00:08:52] So the full quote is I'm eager to see how this new game resonates,

[00:08:56] especially following the success of The Last of Us referring to the TV show.

[00:09:00] Right.

[00:09:02] As it could redefine mainstream perceptions of gaming.

[00:09:06] So that to me is, you know, I don't know.

[00:09:10] I just I think I saw somebody on Twitter said it best.

[00:09:13] It's like at best you're setting horrible expectations for this thing

[00:09:18] for your most diehard fans.

[00:09:22] Because now everybody's thinking again at best, right?

[00:09:25] Everybody's thinking like, oh my gosh, this is going to be so insane.

[00:09:29] It's going to be the most incredible thing ever made.

[00:09:32] It's going to be leaps and bounds and break every barrier and blah, blah,

[00:09:36] blah. And it's like all this stuff.

[00:09:37] And at worst, it's just like,

[00:09:41] like you didn't really, I don't know.

[00:09:45] And, and I don't know what he's trying to say.

[00:09:46] It could just be that to your point, Jake,

[00:09:49] he's trying to blur the lines between film and TV because he sees that as a way

[00:09:55] he mentions mainstream a lot.

[00:09:59] And so to your earlier point, it's like there's still this,

[00:10:03] I think he's still fighting the fight of gaming is not mainstream yet.

[00:10:08] We need to make it more mainstream.

[00:10:10] Last of Us TV show helped make helped bring like gaming more into the limelight

[00:10:16] and it helped make it more mainstream.

[00:10:18] And I wonder if industry executives would agree with him because they're scratching

[00:10:23] for more market share. Right.

[00:10:25] And that market share is not increasing amongst the general populace.

[00:10:29] The, this, the gaming audiences has stopped decreasing post COVID.

[00:10:34] It's actually gone down a little bit. It's shrunk.

[00:10:37] So there wasn't this exponential increase of the gaming audience coming out

[00:10:42] of Kobe when everybody stopped what they were doing,

[00:10:44] stayed inside and played and played animal crossing.

[00:10:47] Those people didn't continue to play more stuff.

[00:10:51] They didn't pick up more games. They just stopped.

[00:10:54] And so there's still like this battle, this like battle with,

[00:10:58] how do we get the mainstream? Right.

[00:11:01] And it's not, we make games more cinematic and we make them more like movie.

[00:11:05] You know what I'm saying?

[00:11:06] And I think that's a real conversation.

[00:11:07] Yeah, no, no, no.

[00:11:08] And I think I honestly think that conversation,

[00:11:10] the way that you've just framed it kind of makes sense because folks,

[00:11:14] I don't know, man. This almost feels like a generational issue.

[00:11:18] And listen, I don't think Neil Druckmann is even that old,

[00:11:20] but if you were to compare him to Gen Z, do Gen Z is gaming.

[00:11:25] But the problem is, is that are they interested in The Last of Us or are

[00:11:29] they interested in Fortnite? You know,

[00:11:32] and making a movie out of Fortnite just sounds awful,

[00:11:35] but it'll probably happen in the next.

[00:11:38] I mean, they don't,

[00:11:39] they actually don't need to because of their live,

[00:11:42] you know, in game events, but they might, who knows? But,

[00:11:45] but they don't need to in the sense of like,

[00:11:48] they don't need to produce Fortnite the movie to get more 12 to 18 year olds

[00:11:53] playing Fortnite. Nah,

[00:11:55] they're pretty comfortable with that demographic. Right.

[00:11:58] Now what I think people like Neil Druckmann are maybe thinking about is,

[00:12:02] okay, the kids are all playing Fortnite, right?

[00:12:05] But I want them to play Uncharted 4 and folks,

[00:12:09] I want, I want the kids to play Uncharted 4. Uncharted 4 is awesome.

[00:12:14] Right. And go listen to our episode on that one. Great, great game. Right?

[00:12:17] I want the kids to play Ghost of Tsushima. You know,

[00:12:20] I want the kids to play all these other games as well. And quite,

[00:12:24] quite honestly, I kind of think like in five years,

[00:12:28] when these kids are spending,

[00:12:31] when they're moved out of the house and they're spending their own money

[00:12:34] on games, they just might go cop Ghost of Tsushima.

[00:12:38] Go to Tsushima for, you know, 20 bucks or something.

[00:12:41] I do think we're kind of at the precipice where more cinematic video games

[00:12:45] could really break into the mainstream. But, um,

[00:12:50] I think, I kind of think that that attitude is I want it to happen now,

[00:12:55] and I want it to happen specifically with my vision,

[00:12:59] which you can interpret that as being like egotistical or whatever.

[00:13:02] I kind of view it as like, I don't know, man, it is happening,

[00:13:07] but also just, just focus on your demographic.

[00:13:12] Yeah, it's happening, but it's not like,

[00:13:15] it's weird because you can sit here and say like,

[00:13:19] you could sit here and say Gen Z doesn't care about the Ghost of Tsushima

[00:13:23] isn't the last of us.

[00:13:24] They care about Fortnite and like TikTok videos and their attention spans

[00:13:28] are dead. Right? But then, you know,

[00:13:32] then Gen Z is all over like Dune part two,

[00:13:34] which is like a two and a half hour, you know, like big movie. It's,

[00:13:39] it's like, well, you know,

[00:13:40] is that really the case or is it just a case of like they're bored of

[00:13:45] the content that's currently being generated? Right.

[00:13:47] And they need something that's actually going to make them interested.

[00:13:50] And a lot of the gaming part of it could just be in front of the show,

[00:13:55] Jay Bayless, you like this tweet.

[00:13:57] I just pulled this up if you didn't get to it. Yeah. Say it.

[00:14:00] Yep. So the, the back, what does he say?

[00:14:03] I have the tweet here.

[00:14:04] So he says slowly being convinced of a personal theory that the game industry

[00:14:08] is going to be going to hit a sort of back let it gone where they're back.

[00:14:13] Log, back lot of gone Armageddon and backlog mixed

[00:14:17] together. I don't know. He probably knows what he's saying.

[00:14:22] Where there's so many good games to play from the last 10 or so years

[00:14:25] that there's going to be diminishing incentives to ever buy new games

[00:14:29] for both new and old players.

[00:14:33] Yeah. So is Gen Z just like, are they just living Gen Z and Gen Y?

[00:14:37] Are they just like zombie

[00:14:41] addicted to Fortnite, but they're just they're just going to hit a point

[00:14:45] where they suddenly just wake up like, like, like the scene in Wall-E

[00:14:51] where they become disconnected from the computer and are like, wait,

[00:14:55] there's this like experiences out here.

[00:14:58] And then to your point, they're going to have 10 years of like

[00:15:01] the Ghost of Tsushima's and The Last of Us and the uncharted

[00:15:05] and, you know, the Assassin's Creed and, you know, a billion,

[00:15:09] jillion other just gems of games.

[00:15:11] And then suddenly, like to your point, is that just going to be like

[00:15:15] the conversation is like people discovering these games for years

[00:15:18] to come, like way later from now?

[00:15:20] Right. I mean, I kind of feel like that's already the case.

[00:15:23] And you know what? I'm going to backtrack on what I said.

[00:15:25] I don't think that's a generational thing.

[00:15:27] I played Wolfenstein for the first time.

[00:15:31] So that's true.

[00:15:32] That's a game that's 10 years old.

[00:15:34] And I played that game and I thought, holy crap, what an awesome narrative.

[00:15:36] Right. There seems sure there are some things I didn't like about it.

[00:15:39] And some of those things are probably design choices

[00:15:41] that were popular 10 years ago that aren't popular now.

[00:15:44] But I think this kind of comes back to

[00:15:47] the fact that the art medium of video games is so drastically different

[00:15:52] than film and it to me, the more I examine the two,

[00:15:57] the less it makes sense to compare them

[00:15:59] other than that they are visual based for the most part, right?

[00:16:03] Visual based storytelling mediums.

[00:16:06] And but because video games don't necessarily have to be

[00:16:11] storytelling for one. Right.

[00:16:13] But I would also say that like.

[00:16:18] Oh, my gosh, I just lost my train of thought.

[00:16:19] It was this beautiful, wonderful thought.

[00:16:21] It was going to convince you all of something amazing.

[00:16:24] I felt it here it is.

[00:16:27] Video games are just freaking long, like even

[00:16:31] we consider a five hour video game, a short experience.

[00:16:35] I want I want to point this out.

[00:16:36] And this maybe ties into if we were going to talk about Hellblade 2 at all.

[00:16:41] Yeah, I think it's leading into this. Right.

[00:16:45] Five hours is five hours.

[00:16:48] You know, is five hours right?

[00:16:50] Five hours of film is an insane amount of film.

[00:16:55] You would lose your mind watching a movie.

[00:16:58] Do you get laughed off? Yeah, you'd be like.

[00:17:02] Yeah, imagine pitching.

[00:17:03] Imagine pitching a five hour movie.

[00:17:04] People are going to lose their freaking minds. Right.

[00:17:07] And the thing is, is like the film model of how long it is, you know,

[00:17:13] how you keep attention span for 90 minutes to two and a half hours

[00:17:19] in a movie theater.

[00:17:20] Even Martin Scorsese would be offended at a five hour movie.

[00:17:25] He's like five hours. He's here. Yeah.

[00:17:27] He'd be. But but here's the thing, like with film,

[00:17:31] we have culturally established what our expectations are,

[00:17:35] not just financially, how much that you're going to pay for

[00:17:37] like the theater experience, but also like use of time

[00:17:41] of how I'm going to spend two hours watching a movie or not.

[00:17:45] Whereas with video games.

[00:17:47] Oh, my goodness. Right.

[00:17:49] You have games. Sure you get.

[00:17:51] But they're once in a blue moon games that are an hour or less long.

[00:17:55] But a short video game is going to be like three to eight hours

[00:17:58] long is considered a short video game.

[00:18:01] But let me tell you, folks, you can watch four movies in the time

[00:18:04] it takes you to be an eight hour game. Right.

[00:18:07] And so I think what we're talking about was like this backlog

[00:18:11] Armageddon thing is that it is so much more difficult

[00:18:15] because we have finite amounts of time to actually comb

[00:18:19] through all of the games that we want to play.

[00:18:21] This is why your video game backlog is infinitely longer

[00:18:24] than your TV show and film backlog,

[00:18:26] because it takes so much freaking time to actually get through

[00:18:29] that entire experience.

[00:18:31] And so I just kind of think that.

[00:18:34] As video games, you got to harness

[00:18:37] that power of the fact that, hey, culturally, like as a player,

[00:18:41] it's actually acceptable to spend 20 hours in a game.

[00:18:45] I was playing some Elden Ring today.

[00:18:47] I've got over 200 hours in that game.

[00:18:49] And guess what?

[00:18:50] That's actually acceptable for the type of game that Elden Ring is.

[00:18:54] It is not acceptable to have 200 hours put into any single film.

[00:18:59] Right. You know, even the ones you love most.

[00:19:03] And I actually think that that is what's contributing to what Jay's getting at here.

[00:19:07] But I think it's also part of the disconnect of how are you going to get

[00:19:11] the movie industry's attention if you're trying to sell them on a game

[00:19:15] that can take anywhere between five to five hundred hours of your time?

[00:19:23] No, I just I don't think you are.

[00:19:25] But it's no, it brings up an interesting conversation.

[00:19:28] It does lend to the credence of why studios are leaning on remasters

[00:19:33] and and and remakes,

[00:19:37] which honestly, like, I don't think is a bad strategy, to be frank,

[00:19:41] like because there's a lot of people who just haven't played these games.

[00:19:45] Like how many people I would have never experienced Resident Evil

[00:19:48] before if it hadn't been the same.

[00:19:52] So like, I cannot fault like the remake.

[00:19:54] You know, people get mad and say, like, make new games.

[00:19:57] But it's like, dude, there's a there's so many games.

[00:20:00] There's so many freaking games that, like, people haven't experienced.

[00:20:04] If those can be get spit polished and like put back out,

[00:20:09] like maybe that's maybe that saves the game industry.

[00:20:12] I don't know. But they need to do a better job at like.

[00:20:16] Look at all this stuff in our catalog game past being like the number one.

[00:20:20] Like maybe they should be marketing on the fact that they have this.

[00:20:24] I don't know. They I mean, they try to, but not to the mainstream.

[00:20:26] Like to the mainstream, it's like

[00:20:29] look at this huge title that we're putting on our pass.

[00:20:32] Although ironically, they didn't do that with Hellboy 2, which

[00:20:36] brings us to Hellboy 2, which just came out,

[00:20:38] which is being sort of a little bit negatively

[00:20:44] labeled because it's a very short game and it's like a five hour game.

[00:20:48] And it also it's a game that straddles that line between like,

[00:20:52] is this a film or is this a video game? Right.

[00:20:55] Is this a movie?

[00:20:56] Is this like an audio visual experience or is this a video game?

[00:20:59] And can it be both and should it be?

[00:21:02] And does it have enough mechanics to like really qualify

[00:21:04] as like a video game, like a game game?

[00:21:07] And I played the beginning of it.

[00:21:09] It is there's a I know exactly why this game was five hours long,

[00:21:13] because it's the best looking game ever made. Period.

[00:21:17] Like it has the best graphics in the game period, like straight up.

[00:21:20] But it's straight. It's a tech test. It's like a tech demo.

[00:21:24] It's literally just it's a tech demo.

[00:21:26] I mean, that's that's like the level of graphical output,

[00:21:29] which means they made a billion other sacrifices when it came to

[00:21:33] how it plays and like what it does. Right.

[00:21:36] For an 80 person studio.

[00:21:38] That's on top of it. Yeah.

[00:21:42] Yeah, it's not it's not Rockstar where they're making Red Dead Redemption two

[00:21:47] with, you know, 2500 developers. Right.

[00:21:50] So interesting conversation.

[00:21:54] Weird words from Neil Druckmann.

[00:21:55] But, you know, it didn't like really bother me.

[00:21:58] I wouldn't have thought anything of it if people didn't like call it out.

[00:22:01] But it's like

[00:22:04] I think the last thing I'll say on is is I really would be shocked

[00:22:09] if the next Naughty Dog game

[00:22:11] really changes the conceptions of

[00:22:17] and I would just tell everybody, do not set expectations

[00:22:21] crazy high for whatever the most likely it's going to be a great

[00:22:26] iteration on Uncharted 4 The Last of Us.

[00:22:30] Yeah, I because that's what game studios do.

[00:22:34] Yeah, just because we're kind of deep into this

[00:22:37] and we and we want to talk about Cyberpunk 2077

[00:22:41] just to touch on a few points that you brought up.

[00:22:42] I agree. Don't don't give yourself those kind of expectations.

[00:22:47] What I kind of love is with light no fire.

[00:22:49] People have been memeing Sean married to death and he's in on the joke.

[00:22:52] So he's laughing with everyone about him overhyping the game

[00:22:56] because of, you know, what happened with No Man's Sky.

[00:22:59] But also, I don't know.

[00:23:02] There's a lot not to say that Naughty Dog and Neil Druckmann

[00:23:06] kind of haven't proven their track record, but

[00:23:10] there's been what feels like a lot of wheels just kind of spinning loosely

[00:23:14] with what's happening at Naughty Dog Faction sort of multiplayer

[00:23:17] kind of getting canned a lot of emphasis on the show

[00:23:21] and then a lot of remasters for their games, which I don't know.

[00:23:26] For me, it's like, dude, just put out the game

[00:23:27] and then we'll we'll see what happens.

[00:23:30] When do you think we even that's the other thing.

[00:23:32] What do you think we even see Naughty Dog's next game?

[00:23:35] What does this even come out?

[00:23:37] I've got no timeline for them because the multiplayer thing got canned.

[00:23:41] I'm like, what are they working on?

[00:23:43] What have they been working on?

[00:23:44] When did Unch what's their last major release?

[00:23:50] Not last of us to what was that?

[00:23:54] That was 2020.

[00:23:56] Wait, what? You tell me that was four years ago.

[00:24:03] June 19th, 2020.

[00:24:04] So game AAA games of the Naughty Dog style take about seven years to make,

[00:24:11] which means we're still three years away from whatever

[00:24:14] their next game is coming out easily.

[00:24:18] Maybe two years if you're.

[00:24:21] No, I don't know.

[00:24:23] Maybe two years from now, if you're lucky, but most likely.

[00:24:26] You know, and it's interesting because in his statement,

[00:24:29] he also talked about using AI more.

[00:24:32] And I'm actually I'm having this thought right now.

[00:24:35] So it's a new baby thought.

[00:24:36] It might not be perfect, but

[00:24:39] I wonder if a bunch of that was just to get investors to keep giving them cash.

[00:24:46] Yeah, we're going to use AI in this.

[00:24:48] Yeah, this is going to change how storytelling changes forever.

[00:24:51] Yeah, this is going to get the mainstream attention to change.

[00:24:54] He doesn't.

[00:24:55] I mean, he doesn't really need Naughty Dog doesn't need investors because they're.

[00:25:01] They're owned by Sony, so I guess you.

[00:25:04] Which is my parent company.

[00:25:05] Yeah, you can't comment further, so let me just take the wheel.

[00:25:08] No, I don't know.

[00:25:10] You're right. I'm getting a little conspiracy theory here, but

[00:25:14] I think it's a weird thing.

[00:25:16] It's just a weird thing.

[00:25:17] It's a weird thing. You think you'd be a little bit more grounded?

[00:25:19] You think you'd be a little more.

[00:25:20] I totally agree with that.

[00:25:22] And honestly, I think when it comes to Naughty Dog at this point,

[00:25:26] I just let the chips fall.

[00:25:28] I want to see what you put out and then let the chips fall.

[00:25:30] I'm really not interested in anything that no offense.

[00:25:34] I like Naughty Dog and our charter for is amazing.

[00:25:36] I actually haven't played either last of us game.

[00:25:38] I've been really on the fence about those for no real reason at all,

[00:25:44] except for this backlog problem that we have. Right.

[00:25:48] And so I just just put something out and let's take a look.

[00:25:51] Let's see if I'm interested.

[00:25:52] That's kind of where I'm at personally.

[00:25:54] But other things you are.

[00:25:55] Sorry, you got something?

[00:25:58] No, I just said just let the game.

[00:25:59] Yeah. What?

[00:26:00] Just reading what you said. Let the game talk.

[00:26:02] The game talk. Yeah.

[00:26:04] And let the and make good, cool, awesome trade.

[00:26:07] Yeah, which I'm sure they will.

[00:26:08] So just just do you.

[00:26:10] And let's hope that doing you pays out the way you hope it does.

[00:26:14] Mark, marketing is important.

[00:26:17] Don't bomb the marketing.

[00:26:18] What you said about remasters, I freaking like I'm totally on board with this.

[00:26:23] I know people are like, this is just a cash grab.

[00:26:24] But it's like, yeah, but this is the only way I'm going to play this game.

[00:26:28] But also in a little more serious light,

[00:26:32] this is like the only way that you can safely

[00:26:36] or the only way that you can legally play games that are no longer available.

[00:26:40] So. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:43] You know, this is another whole other conversation

[00:26:45] that we're not going to start here, but video games preservation.

[00:26:48] There's this massive problem there.

[00:26:49] It's super hard to play really old games.

[00:26:51] And when you try to emulate them, you get dinged.

[00:26:54] And so the best middle ground to appease the people who want money

[00:26:59] and the people who want to play old games is just to release a remaster

[00:27:02] or a remake. That's how I play Demon's Souls.

[00:27:04] I mean, I played, you know, a few other games

[00:27:06] that I wasn't going to go back and hunt down 100 percent.

[00:27:11] Think about if Nintendo remade like Ocarina of Time, dude.

[00:27:16] I mean.

[00:27:18] Who I mean, it would sell, it would sell

[00:27:23] incredible copies, dude, it would sell Buku Box.

[00:27:26] It would be it would be so freaking.

[00:27:28] Think about think about if they remade blood.

[00:27:35] Stop stop.

[00:27:38] Oh, my gosh.

[00:27:40] We're not allowed to mention bloodborne on this podcast any longer.

[00:27:42] I just made the decree.

[00:27:45] Yeah. So bloodborne would be great.

[00:27:47] No, no. Listen.

[00:27:51] Well, remasters, I'm I'm totally fine with them

[00:27:54] if it's the way that I can play a game.

[00:27:56] Jake, did we do a remaster remake episode already?

[00:28:00] I can't remember if we did that.

[00:28:00] No, we do that maybe like three or four years ago,

[00:28:04] but I don't think we have we should.

[00:28:05] Maybe that's the idea for a future episode.

[00:28:07] The best remaster slash makes

[00:28:11] the GTA trilogy. Just kidding.

[00:28:15] The secret copy of Bloodborne that we got.

[00:28:17] Bloodborne remake.

[00:28:18] I actually think Dark Souls remaster is pretty disappointing.

[00:28:21] But conversation for another time.

[00:28:25] I'm not going to say this because I got made fun of it.

[00:28:27] We are not jumping right in, folks.

[00:28:29] We're 30 minutes in here.

[00:28:31] But we will now finally.

[00:28:35] Gosh, it's taken us so long.

[00:28:36] I'm so sorry for what we've done.

[00:28:41] But we're jumping in now to talk about cyberpunk.

[00:28:44] 2077 Jake, how are we going to break it down?

[00:28:47] Folks, this is a historic moment because we are going to talk about cyberpunk

[00:28:51] 2077 in four categories for maybe the last time.

[00:28:58] We got some things cooking, but.

[00:29:01] We'll put the tease away and we'll get to it for categories.

[00:29:05] First one is narrative.

[00:29:06] We will be talking about the story.

[00:29:08] We'll be talking about themes, writing characters.

[00:29:12] There's a lot to tackle here in this game.

[00:29:15] And then next, we'll be talking about the mechanics.

[00:29:17] So this is how you are interacting with the game.

[00:29:19] This is an RPG through and through.

[00:29:21] We'll be talking about sort of how that functions, what you do as a player,

[00:29:24] what kind of control you have over your interaction with the game.

[00:29:28] And then we'll be talking about the gameplay loop

[00:29:31] and gameplay loop will be talking about like, OK,

[00:29:34] how is the game sort of structured or designed

[00:29:37] how for you to keep going back in?

[00:29:39] How does it push you forward?

[00:29:40] How does pacing happen?

[00:29:42] And essentially what sometimes we talk about this is what defines

[00:29:46] a session playing this game, like a gaming session.

[00:29:49] And then finally, impact on the industry.

[00:29:51] We have the benefit of talking about cyberpunk 2077

[00:29:55] years after its disastrous launch.

[00:29:58] And a lot has happened since then.

[00:30:00] And so it's kind of it's kind of neat to be able to look at this

[00:30:04] with 20, 20 hindsight and talk about sort of how we see

[00:30:08] what cyberpunk 2077 has been able to accomplish in CD Project Red.

[00:30:13] Kind of what happened in the wake of that enormous belly flop into some

[00:30:18] deep, deep, dangerous waters.

[00:30:25] Narrative of cyberpunk 20, 20, 20, 70.

[00:30:29] This is a depressing.

[00:30:34] Dark, violent, sexualized.

[00:30:42] Visceral.

[00:30:44] Sci fi story, great words here, great adjective featuring

[00:30:48] a main character V self-described

[00:30:53] based on a very, very light background selection that you make.

[00:30:58] You are either a corporate

[00:31:01] executive type Corpo, as they call it.

[00:31:04] You're like you could be a wasteland or you can be a street rat.

[00:31:08] None of these really have significant outcomes on the gameplay

[00:31:13] other than some minor dialogue choices like throughout your playthrough.

[00:31:17] But ultimately, you kind of start off

[00:31:23] you. Are we are we we got to spoil a little bit, right?

[00:31:28] Because this game's been out for a while to be able to have this discussion, right?

[00:31:31] Yes. Yes. OK, so folks will get we'll get some caveats

[00:31:36] when we're about to talk about if you don't.

[00:31:38] Yes. And the only thing I want to say here is I was shocked

[00:31:42] that some parts of this game weren't spoiled for me.

[00:31:44] So we're going to respect that by at least saying, hey, fast forward

[00:31:48] when we get to some of those moments.

[00:31:52] Yeah. So it starts off your you're like a shady sort of underground.

[00:31:58] You're a dealer, right?

[00:31:59] And you've got your buddy who's was featured so heavily in the marketing.

[00:32:05] My gosh, I can't I always forget the name characters.

[00:32:08] Well, if I haven't played in a while, I forget the name.

[00:32:10] What's his name? Your buddy, Jackie.

[00:32:13] Jackie. So you and Jackie, you're going to do this crazy heist

[00:32:18] and the top of the building, you go to the top of the building

[00:32:20] and the super long drawn out mission, you get up there

[00:32:24] and turns out that the

[00:32:28] the main dudes of the.

[00:32:32] Oh, my gosh. Arasaka Corp.

[00:32:34] Dude, my brain does not work past 9 p.m.

[00:32:36] I'm serious. The Arasaka Corporation, like the

[00:32:40] the son like murders the father.

[00:32:43] So spoilers, son murders the father and then

[00:32:48] it ends up that after, you know, to keep it without going too long

[00:32:52] in the tooth, you end up with a microchip

[00:32:56] in your head that has Keanu Reeves in it

[00:33:01] and you're probably going to die.

[00:33:03] You end up like in a dumpster and you're probably going to die.

[00:33:06] And then you've got Keanu Reeves in your head.

[00:33:09] And then your your mission is to figure out

[00:33:13] how to get this thing out of your head while solving,

[00:33:16] you know, the crime that took place and see if you're going to take down.

[00:33:19] And there's multiple ways that you can end the story.

[00:33:21] There's multiple endings that we'll get into that

[00:33:25] figure out what you're going to do.

[00:33:26] Are you going to take down Arasaka?

[00:33:28] Are you going to save the day?

[00:33:30] So on and so on.

[00:33:32] Anyway, that's like the setup of Cyberpunk 20, 20, 20, 70, 70.

[00:33:37] Yeah, Jake, give me your thoughts on this narrative.

[00:33:43] Did it work for you?

[00:33:45] This game is bleak as hell.

[00:33:48] Can I just put that out there?

[00:33:51] It's interesting.

[00:33:52] So the first folks and listen, I think I'm the only person

[00:33:56] stupid enough to have this kind of experience with the game.

[00:33:59] I just went straight to the open world as soon as I could.

[00:34:02] So like, oh, everybody loves this open world.

[00:34:04] And then I didn't get to this this initial mission, the heist,

[00:34:08] until about four hours into the game.

[00:34:10] Folks, that is the absolute wrong way to play this game.

[00:34:12] Go straight to the heist.

[00:34:14] That is go straight to it, because I played this game way back in January.

[00:34:19] I played those four hours and I was like, I don't get it.

[00:34:21] I don't get the buzz.

[00:34:23] Everything. And to me, it's sort of my experience of the game was like

[00:34:27] this game just looks like it's trying to be edgy, over sexualized,

[00:34:31] kind of look what we what we can get away with.

[00:34:34] We're edge lords over here. This is so cool.

[00:34:37] And I was just immediately turned off.

[00:34:40] I was like, I don't want some game trying to show off

[00:34:42] how cool and gangsta it is.

[00:34:44] They just didn't feel right.

[00:34:46] But I also talk of I also mentioned and say this sort of jokingly,

[00:34:50] but I mean it seriously as well.

[00:34:51] This game is incredibly bleak.

[00:34:52] And I think it actually deals with that bleakness

[00:34:54] in a really interesting thematic way where you come to realize

[00:35:01] that you are so powerless

[00:35:05] in this corporatocracy as a mercenary, right, as a merc, as V.

[00:35:11] And even though that I mean, you witness the most high profile

[00:35:15] like what do you call that patricide, right?

[00:35:18] The son killing a father of this huge mega corporation.

[00:35:22] And you were just supposed to get a job done

[00:35:26] because you just need to get eddies.

[00:35:27] You need to get that money.

[00:35:28] And you just need to get on with your day, like living day to day.

[00:35:32] And you just are looking for some sort of break

[00:35:35] and the game's hopelessness.

[00:35:37] I feel like and this is this pertains to the cyberpunk genre

[00:35:40] just as it is.

[00:35:41] But I think the game's hopelessness is actually

[00:35:44] such a fantastically treated central theme to this game,

[00:35:49] where I started looking at the game

[00:35:52] and like the super over sexualized moments in the game,

[00:35:55] the posters, the advertisements and everything.

[00:35:58] I started reading that as like you in this cyberpunk world

[00:36:03] in Night City, you are so powerless

[00:36:06] that the only thing you have control over is literally your own body.

[00:36:11] And that's why why not get all these cybernetics?

[00:36:14] Why not transform your body?

[00:36:16] Why not participate in brain dances and like these super hyper

[00:36:20] sexualized, very physical,

[00:36:23] corporeal experiences with drugs, with other things as well?

[00:36:27] Because that your agency as a person in Night City has been so severely

[00:36:33] limited to what you can experience in your own body.

[00:36:38] And as I progressed through the game, this hopelessness

[00:36:41] and this bleakness really started to shine when you as V

[00:36:44] finally start to make a friend.

[00:36:46] And it kind of made me wonder if like some of the people that V

[00:36:51] meets you, the player meets throughout the course of the game,

[00:36:53] were actually the first friends that V ever really had.

[00:36:56] Like the first actual connections, relationships

[00:37:00] where V as a character felt like, you know what?

[00:37:03] I want to do something because this person matters to me

[00:37:07] and I want to do something for them instead of doing something for myself.

[00:37:14] And, gosh, it just hit like a ton of bricks

[00:37:17] where it's like this world, Night City is so hyper,

[00:37:21] like micromanaged by all different, like political, financial,

[00:37:27] whatever systems are in place.

[00:37:29] It is so micromanaged.

[00:37:31] It is so bleak that, gosh, you just have to break out of that in some way.

[00:37:37] And so I loved how the game dealt with that theme

[00:37:41] and my perception of the game changed quite drastically

[00:37:45] as I started to do more of the main quests,

[00:37:47] as I started to make friends in Night City

[00:37:50] and have those be actual relationships and not just sort of transactional

[00:37:54] business partnerships.

[00:37:58] Yeah, I think it's I mean, that's

[00:38:01] I hadn't thought about it the way that you just said it, but that is.

[00:38:08] Yeah, I mean, that's a fantastic

[00:38:10] breakdown of, I think, the like best parts of this story.

[00:38:14] I was just thinking to myself, like,

[00:38:15] I think the best things that shine out to me was,

[00:38:20] I mean, I like most people, I romance Pan Am.

[00:38:23] Same, easy.

[00:38:24] You know, I might do that.

[00:38:26] Easy, easy pick there.

[00:38:29] Easy pick, but like her whole quest line and like your relationship

[00:38:32] with her and kind of talking through, it's not like the crazy,

[00:38:35] deepest thing ever, but you do see like an evolution

[00:38:40] in your relationship and like your comfort with this other person.

[00:38:43] And it is like a romance, like there's, you know,

[00:38:46] whole sexual portion and all that stuff.

[00:38:48] But it's more about like them developing

[00:38:53] like a connection.

[00:38:54] And then you have this person like in the world

[00:38:56] that you have a connection with, like you said, Jake.

[00:38:59] And then there's actually an ending of the game

[00:39:01] like tied to these relationships develop if you complete

[00:39:05] like the quest chain, depending on which individual you go for.

[00:39:09] I think most people probably do Pan Am, but there are other options.

[00:39:12] I checked the Xbox achievement percentages on this

[00:39:15] and I think Pan Am was first place

[00:39:18] and she had doubled the percentage of Judy's quest line.

[00:39:22] Yeah, which which totally makes sense.

[00:39:24] Yeah. And I think most people probably playing cyberpunk

[00:39:27] are probably playing, you know, male V, which side note,

[00:39:31] I hate these voice actors.

[00:39:33] I just hate it.

[00:39:35] I think it's so bad.

[00:39:36] But yeah, I didn't.

[00:39:38] So there's the whole.

[00:39:40] So then there's that aspect.

[00:39:41] And the other aspect I was thinking about was the fact that like so

[00:39:45] spoiler, you find that you're finding this piece of technology

[00:39:48] called the relic and you're going to die.

[00:39:50] And so you have to take the relic and stick it in your own head

[00:39:53] and then you get shot in the head.

[00:39:55] And then that like triggers something where

[00:39:58] like the system and the relic is like basically

[00:40:01] you're being overwritten with Johnny Silverhand's memory,

[00:40:05] which Johnny Silverhand's memory was like stuck in the system

[00:40:09] and then somehow got on the relic.

[00:40:10] And there's details in the story I won't go into.

[00:40:13] But anyway, so you end up with like Johnny Silverhand

[00:40:17] like being in your head and then you have a relationship with him

[00:40:20] with this dude stuck in your head while at the same time,

[00:40:23] the fear and the pushback of this dude,

[00:40:26] like overriding your brain to the point where like

[00:40:30] he could literally take over your body

[00:40:32] and you're kind of fighting against that the whole game.

[00:40:35] And so there's this really kind of strange, weird relationship of you

[00:40:39] using like Johnny Silverhand to like talk about the decisions

[00:40:43] you're making and why you make them.

[00:40:44] And you get into like philosophical conversations

[00:40:47] of like the reasons that you're making decisions that you're making.

[00:40:50] And that gets even deeper in the expansion where Johnny goes into

[00:40:56] like how he was a rock star, but like he was recruited in the army

[00:41:01] and then how the army radicalized him to become a terrorist

[00:41:05] and like develop his sort of radical anarchist view on the world.

[00:41:09] But then it goes starts even going deeper into that.

[00:41:13] And I can't remember if this deal, if this conversation lines are in

[00:41:17] the main game, but they happen in the DLC where like he goes into

[00:41:20] and starts to reconsider like some of the decisions he made

[00:41:24] based on kind of how you have conversations with them.

[00:41:27] So the game does a really good job of kind of

[00:41:30] getting into these sort of philosophical things.

[00:41:33] But at the same time, to your point, Jake, like throwing in your face

[00:41:36] like, you know, random like

[00:41:41] porno advertisements, like just everywhere in the world.

[00:41:45] Which, by the way, I played this game at launch and they were way worse.

[00:41:49] Oh, really?

[00:41:51] Way they toned it back super far.

[00:41:55] Did you would like pick up like dildos

[00:41:58] and have just like dildos in your inventory?

[00:42:01] Yeah. Just like for no reason anyway.

[00:42:04] And that that goes to your point about like now that you said that

[00:42:08] that does make me ponder on like, yeah, I guess that is a reflection

[00:42:12] of this world where you like really are powerless and human relationship.

[00:42:16] Human relationships are probably like diminished so much so

[00:42:20] because you can just it's sort of a microcosm

[00:42:24] of kind of what's happening in today's world where like

[00:42:27] human relationships are becoming less of a priority

[00:42:30] because you can get sort of instant gratification

[00:42:33] from all these different sources that you never used to be able to

[00:42:36] without developing those human relations first.

[00:42:39] And then like having that instant gratification

[00:42:42] without having the relationship has like so negative

[00:42:46] and so decaying, like on the human mind.

[00:42:48] So anyway, that's like a microcosm of this whole world.

[00:42:51] Yeah, it is.

[00:42:52] Man, it just I just felt so suffocated.

[00:42:55] I feel like in, you know, and it's done in a really interesting

[00:42:59] and artistic way, I feel like in the beginning half of this game,

[00:43:02] especially just so suffocated by like, OK, what am I doing?

[00:43:05] I guess people are calling me for jobs, but everything was about jobs.

[00:43:09] Everything was about money.

[00:43:10] And it just felt so it just sat me of energy.

[00:43:14] Right. Did you think all it's just dollars and cents to all these people.

[00:43:18] And that's that's all that really matters.

[00:43:20] And I look like another money bag to somebody.

[00:43:23] And that's just kind of how a lot of these transactions occurred.

[00:43:27] So, yeah, I will say.

[00:43:30] OK, actually, this this is a big spoiler for the end, so skip ahead.

[00:43:33] I'll keep it to like a minute.

[00:43:34] Skip ahead a minute.

[00:43:36] By the end of the game, the game gets so bleak

[00:43:39] that you don't even have control over how you die.

[00:43:42] And that becomes a major, major theme towards the end.

[00:43:46] And so I really I mean, it's like I said, super bleak,

[00:43:50] but I thought it was super fascinating to have characters

[00:43:53] sort of come to that realization of like where their autonomy,

[00:43:56] where their liberty really ended. Right.

[00:43:59] And like very being able to see like very clearly the parameters

[00:44:03] of one's autonomy and one's control of self

[00:44:08] and how one's defines oneself.

[00:44:11] I thought was super fascinating.

[00:44:13] And I think it did it.

[00:44:14] I know this kind of pertains to the genre as it is.

[00:44:17] But I think Cyberpunk 2077 did a really fantastic job

[00:44:20] of making those themes stand out.

[00:44:23] But, you know, and there are a lot of other themes

[00:44:26] that this game touches on, but I don't want to go into all of them

[00:44:29] because they think they all sort of come back to this idea of like

[00:44:33] everything is, you know, control is so hyper

[00:44:37] micromanage that you are so powerless.

[00:44:40] And what are your avenues for, you know, actually exerting

[00:44:44] selfhood, autonomy and power?

[00:44:46] Well, I would say number one violence. Right.

[00:44:48] So much of this game is built on violence, right?

[00:44:52] Violence and money, you know, and sex.

[00:44:55] Those were like the three outlets, I feel like, that were available to you.

[00:45:00] Not like creativity, not even like productivity.

[00:45:04] Right. In the traditional sense,

[00:45:06] we're talking about like labor relations.

[00:45:08] It was all about sort of those three things.

[00:45:12] So, yeah, lots of lots of other themes, but primarily,

[00:45:16] you know, corporatocracy, like like Cameron mentioned,

[00:45:20] the big main thread or storyline that you begin the game with

[00:45:24] before you form any of these relationships is what happens

[00:45:27] at Arasaka Tower and what you are going to do as a witness.

[00:45:30] And if you're witnessing is even going to matter,

[00:45:33] you know, without money, violence and sex as as tools of

[00:45:39] autonomous this.

[00:45:44] Yeah, I think this game is.

[00:45:47] Story well.

[00:45:50] And I think this ties into the mechanic, but even like story wise,

[00:45:54] I do feel like it's more of a it's probably a bit more of a GTA

[00:45:58] than an art than an art than a like a mass effect

[00:46:03] or than like a witcher.

[00:46:04] I'm thinking about this and it feels right.

[00:46:11] Because it does give you choice in how the game ends

[00:46:15] and how certain story things progress.

[00:46:17] But it's not, you know, it's it's I don't even know the right way

[00:46:23] to describe it, but it's like a linear choice.

[00:46:26] I'm not sure how to even describe it.

[00:46:28] I would say if you don't mind

[00:46:32] that the main quest line is pretty linear

[00:46:35] in their well-defined branches.

[00:46:37] I feel like when I got to the the third act of the game,

[00:46:41] if you will, when I when I started making choices of which

[00:46:44] narrative branch I would follow and I only got two endings.

[00:46:48] And one of them was this short ending, the quick ending that you get,

[00:46:51] not one of the main endings.

[00:46:53] Yeah, I definitely felt like, OK,

[00:46:56] that the open worldness of the game of Night City has

[00:46:59] definitely funneled into OK, there's a specific path to take here.

[00:47:03] Is that sort of what you mean to say?

[00:47:06] Yeah, I think it's more like choose your own adventure

[00:47:08] versus I made decisions and then outcomes happened.

[00:47:12] I don't know. OK, a little bit more than that.

[00:47:14] And this is getting a little bit into like gameplay loop stuff. But

[00:47:18] overall, I think they did a pretty good job.

[00:47:20] And I think they do maybe even even even better job in the DLC.

[00:47:23] And I think the DLC actually has a stronger

[00:47:28] plot than the main game.

[00:47:31] And the DLC also adds like additional possible endings to the game,

[00:47:35] which adds some interesting flavor.

[00:47:38] And does like some some it's like a cool, kind of interesting spy story

[00:47:42] that expands the universe a little bit.

[00:47:45] It introduces the new United States of America

[00:47:49] as like another faction, which brings kind of interesting conversations

[00:47:52] around like, well, what happened to the United States government

[00:47:54] and like how it interacts with the people of Night City

[00:47:57] and kind of the microcosm of like factions inside of Night City?

[00:48:01] All those things are like kind of interesting.

[00:48:03] But at the end of the day, for me, I just think this world is so bleak.

[00:48:07] I just didn't want to live it.

[00:48:10] And I think that that's a problem in a video game,

[00:48:13] because in order to feel and I'm this is my opinion.

[00:48:17] And I know there's people that completely disagree with this.

[00:48:19] And a lot of people absolutely love this world.

[00:48:24] I just did not.

[00:48:25] When I go to, you know, you play a game and I play a game

[00:48:28] so that I can sort of have a new experience inside a world

[00:48:33] that doesn't exist. Right.

[00:48:35] And so for me, that's a huge part of video games.

[00:48:37] And when I was in this world, I just like didn't really want to be there.

[00:48:41] Like I was there for kind of the fun visuals and the stuff

[00:48:45] that happens on the screen and like in some of the characters.

[00:48:48] But the world itself was just like you said it, Jake.

[00:48:52] It's like bleak, depressing.

[00:48:55] There's it's hard to find, like a lot of stuff of value

[00:48:58] that you wanted to like nurture and take care of. Right.

[00:49:03] And like fine joy.

[00:49:04] It's not like a as an example, like a ghost of Tsushima,

[00:49:08] where you stand on a cliff and like pan the camera left and right

[00:49:13] and just like consume and like taking the beauty and like you'd

[00:49:16] go to the hot springs.

[00:49:18] There's none of that relief in this game.

[00:49:20] It's just dark and gritty and depressing every single second.

[00:49:25] And I did not enjoy that.

[00:49:27] Yeah, I think you could make an argument that thematic pacing

[00:49:31] there really isn't one.

[00:49:33] Sure, there are moments of humor and sure there are some side quests

[00:49:35] that are going to make you do and think something different.

[00:49:39] It's funny, because I feel like this is a double edged sword, right?

[00:49:41] It speaks to the incredible world building, right?

[00:49:44] To have like the sort of sense of coherency of what Night City is.

[00:49:48] But I also agree with you, Cameron, in this in that

[00:49:52] I know people love the heck out of this game, despite this game

[00:49:56] being like first person, highly immersive cutscenes and all this stuff.

[00:50:00] It really felt like I was outside the screen,

[00:50:05] just watching somebody else's story unfold.

[00:50:10] Now, I tend to be kind of mixed on like or relatively neutral

[00:50:14] and like how immersive a game needs to be for me.

[00:50:17] But I didn't really get that experience.

[00:50:20] Maybe the way that I don't know.

[00:50:23] Same thing. It was a really interesting

[00:50:27] for me, it was like like looking at 2D art

[00:50:32] or even like a sculpture where it's like this is super fascinating to look at.

[00:50:38] But I am wholly outside of it.

[00:50:41] I am completely outside of what is happening inside the thing.

[00:50:46] And it's fun for me.

[00:50:48] Cyberpunk 2077 was really fun to look at and pick apart

[00:50:52] and critique and think about what's happening narratively

[00:50:55] with these characters and the writing, et cetera.

[00:50:58] But I was always outside of that experience.

[00:51:02] For me, it wasn't like if you're watching a play

[00:51:05] and you feel like you're in the middle of the stage,

[00:51:08] watching things unfold around you.

[00:51:10] I was always entirely outside of this experience,

[00:51:15] which. I don't know, folks, and I don't mean that

[00:51:20] I don't mean to say this is an objective claim that this is how the game is.

[00:51:24] This is my personal experience.

[00:51:25] I just there's some things that prevented me from really diving

[00:51:29] headfirst into the game's world, into the atmosphere.

[00:51:36] I think that takes us into mechanics.

[00:51:38] And this is kind of what kept me going in the game

[00:51:41] because the mechanics are quite solid.

[00:51:44] And this is a this is a

[00:51:47] this is an action RPG.

[00:51:51] Basically, a first person shooter. Yeah. With.

[00:51:55] A lot of RPG elements and like strong, very, very strong,

[00:52:00] especially after Cyberpunk 2.0.

[00:52:03] Very strong build crafting elements.

[00:52:08] So you have a ton of different choice on how you engage in combat.

[00:52:13] But essentially, if I'm trying to boil it down, it's basically.

[00:52:18] Swords.

[00:52:19] Handguns, machine guns.

[00:52:24] And then there's cybernetics that like essentially stuff

[00:52:28] that you can enhance your arms and like put blades,

[00:52:31] mantis blades, for example, like attached to your arms.

[00:52:35] And then there's another component of it where you can interact

[00:52:39] with enemies using.

[00:52:42] What do they call, Jake, the cyber upgrades for like attacking people?

[00:52:50] I just refer to them as hacks like the net running hacks.

[00:52:53] Yeah, like so you could be concept called a net runner

[00:52:57] where essentially you are hitting your enemies with like debuffs

[00:53:02] or stunning them or making them drop their weapon.

[00:53:07] And you have like you can get those ability.

[00:53:09] And that's sort of like your magic spells almost in a sense.

[00:53:14] And that's that's essentially the combat system.

[00:53:17] And that's that's essentially the combat system.

[00:53:19] There's a ton of different what they've done really well here.

[00:53:22] And that all feels pretty good.

[00:53:24] That all feels like pretty solid, like pretty solid first version

[00:53:27] shooter mechanics as first and shooters go.

[00:53:29] But what they really I think kind of nailed here mechanically is again

[00:53:33] that the cyberpunk 2.0 build crafting just really allows you to go

[00:53:38] totally ham with the play style that you want to pick.

[00:53:42] I'll give you an example like the one I picked was essentially fly around

[00:53:48] the map with like slow motion pistol headshots and a samurai sword.

[00:53:53] Nice. And so I could double jump.

[00:53:56] I could like dash forward in the air.

[00:54:00] I could slow down time and then run forward and slash people

[00:54:04] and pull my head gun and my pistol out and shoot someone on the head

[00:54:08] and all that like feels really good and like works really well.

[00:54:11] I think where maybe it falls off a tad bit is that the combat is not

[00:54:16] what I would call very strategic in nature.

[00:54:20] There's not a lot of for lack of a better term like

[00:54:24] rock, paper, scissors, combat interactions, which is sort of like

[00:54:29] the basis of strategy like using different types of abilities

[00:54:35] or different moves to handle different types of enemies.

[00:54:37] It's really just how fast can I kill people at the end of the day?

[00:54:42] And as you progress and like get better in your certain build,

[00:54:45] it just increases the speed with the speed and the style

[00:54:49] with which you can kill stuff.

[00:54:51] Yeah. Wow. I think that's really well put.

[00:54:54] Yeah. Let's see my build.

[00:54:55] I was at first I was kind of all over the place,

[00:54:57] dipping my toes into everything to try to figure it out.

[00:55:00] I think I ended my build actually doing a lot of hacking

[00:55:03] and a lot of katana slicing.

[00:55:06] So I started with like a lot of like gun heavy build,

[00:55:10] but as like and listen, as a first person shooter,

[00:55:14] I think the game is fine.

[00:55:16] It's standard, right?

[00:55:17] It's not bad.

[00:55:18] It's not like super impressive or incredible or innovative.

[00:55:23] However, when I started doing the hacking stuff,

[00:55:26] did I got I got the teensiest vibes of dishonored to

[00:55:29] where I was like, I can I can do some really interesting things here.

[00:55:34] If I turn off this camera or if I set up a distraction over here,

[00:55:38] stealth at range, I think became like the majority

[00:55:42] of how I was playing the game or is like,

[00:55:44] oh, there's a bunch of drones here.

[00:55:46] What if I use this ability? Right.

[00:55:48] And so there for in my play style and experience,

[00:55:52] there was strategy, but and it was super fun.

[00:55:56] Don't get me wrong.

[00:55:58] But I don't think it ever evolved beyond that.

[00:56:00] And I think you said it really well.

[00:56:01] There's no it didn't really feel like anyway,

[00:56:03] that there's a lot of rock paper scissors of like,

[00:56:05] okay, I need to have different loadouts

[00:56:07] or different types of guns in different scenarios

[00:56:10] in order to navigate without running into any barriers.

[00:56:13] It was more like bigger gun, bigger number, bigger kill faster.

[00:56:18] You know, that's that's really what everything kind of distilled down to.

[00:56:22] I don't think this is a problem, right?

[00:56:24] I think it worked for me.

[00:56:26] But I think if you're it may be for die hard build crafter

[00:56:31] and you're changing out every single cybernetic part of your body,

[00:56:35] you could really hone in and make something really specific.

[00:56:40] But at the end of the day, I was like, oh, a new gun or a new sword.

[00:56:43] Is it cool? Let me try it out.

[00:56:45] Oh, it is cool.

[00:56:47] I'm going to use this right.

[00:56:49] And so almost everything was decided on vibes,

[00:56:52] not on actual strategy in the game.

[00:56:56] Like I said, I don't think this is a problem,

[00:56:59] but I don't know.

[00:57:00] It did kind of maybe compress the type of experience

[00:57:03] that I could have had with this game.

[00:57:05] But I don't know.

[00:57:06] I think I'm coming across more negative than than I mean to be.

[00:57:10] I had a lot of fun and there are a lot of really fun scenarios,

[00:57:14] although there were vestiges of the old cyberpunk.

[00:57:18] Remember, I didn't start playing this game until January 2024.

[00:57:20] So a few months ago as of this recording,

[00:57:23] there are a few vestiges of like, dude, Pan Am,

[00:57:25] you are literally shooting into a wall right now or like an enemy or like a drone.

[00:57:31] Like it's like, come on, get it together, you know,

[00:57:34] or just enemies just stuck on like, I don't know, a gas,

[00:57:38] like an explosive barrel.

[00:57:40] And I'm like, well, if you're just going to be stuck there,

[00:57:42] I'm going to just shoot you with this exploding barrel.

[00:57:45] So there was a little teensy bit of that.

[00:57:48] I felt like level design and all this stuff was kind of fine.

[00:57:51] I just ended up building like a huge tank

[00:57:54] so I could heal really quickly and get up in people's faces with a katana.

[00:57:59] So it was it was fun.

[00:58:01] But despite the possibilities for there being something really cool in the game,

[00:58:06] I never felt incentivized to really engage

[00:58:10] with the more minute details of build crafting.

[00:58:16] Yeah, I think no, I mean, yeah, I think you're right.

[00:58:19] It's I've said this before, but it's kind of feels like more like a GTA

[00:58:24] than an RPG, even in the combat too, right?

[00:58:27] Where it's like, that doesn't mean it's not fun.

[00:58:29] It's like a first person shooters.

[00:58:31] You're just shooting.

[00:58:32] Yeah, but like, but it's you know, it's fun to do that when it feels good.

[00:58:37] I think I just wanted more because they do such a good job with build crafting

[00:58:40] that you kind of want to be pushed back on a little bit more.

[00:58:44] And I did turn it up.

[00:58:45] I turned up the difficulty a few different times to see like,

[00:58:48] oh, would this give me like a better challenge?

[00:58:50] And it does, but it's just basically adding HP bars, right?

[00:58:54] Which that's that's not super fun, right?

[00:58:57] I want like more of a challenge.

[00:58:59] I want like different bosses and different bosses,

[00:59:02] like move differently and are harder to kill.

[00:59:04] But at the end of the day, you're using the same strategy on everybody.

[00:59:08] It's just like figure out how to do as much damage as possible,

[00:59:11] which I would have liked to have like a bit more tactical opportunity.

[00:59:17] Yeah.

[00:59:18] But yeah, other than that, combat there's running on the running around the world.

[00:59:24] I think we can we can kind of move into the gameplay loop and talk.

[00:59:27] There's a billion side quests.

[00:59:30] There's your main quest that you know, you do to kind of progress through the game,

[00:59:36] which leads you to kind of the multiple endings possibilities that we talked about.

[00:59:41] There's a whole bunch of side quests from characters that you meet in the game and then

[00:59:44] like different factions that you come into contact with that will call you on your cell

[00:59:48] phone and be like, hey, V, like, come do this mission, blah, blah, blah.

[00:59:52] Um, then yeah, there's a lot of those were hit or miss for me.

[00:59:57] I mostly stuck to the main quest.

[00:59:58] I did.

[00:59:59] There are some longer side quest chain one in particular where you're doing like

[01:00:03] a murder investigation days.

[01:00:06] Those just like didn't hit for me.

[01:00:08] They just weren't they just didn't do enough.

[01:00:11] So I mostly just ended up sticking to the main quest because that's where they

[01:00:14] they put the meat on the bone.

[01:00:16] And then the DLC, which I already mentioned, Phantom Liberty,

[01:00:20] is just a great kind of fun spy story with some really fun kind of espionage spy stuff

[01:00:26] in there that's quite good.

[01:00:28] And then it has Idris Elba as a voice actor and he does a great job.

[01:00:32] So that stuff was fun.

[01:00:34] Yeah, I there are side quests in there.

[01:00:38] I hardly did any in part because kind of getting back to narrative.

[01:00:44] As soon as I started making friends in the world, as soon as I started getting

[01:00:48] in a lot of people just on the main quest, I found them immensely satisfying.

[01:00:52] And I didn't really want to look for other NPCs.

[01:00:55] You know, Judy, fantastic.

[01:00:57] I love kind of how the story between Judy and Evelyn evolved and what I was learning

[01:01:02] and what kind of how people get tangled up into these messes and what that means.

[01:01:07] Pan Am, obviously this this was my romance choice.

[01:01:11] Her the all the codos even Mitch Mitch was one of my favorite characters, to be honest.

[01:01:16] I loved listening to Mitch and the things that he had to say and Saul

[01:01:21] and in talking Muda, did I really like talking Muda?

[01:01:25] Actually, I thought he was great.

[01:01:27] So I understand.

[01:01:29] I mean, for Cameron and I, it was really difficult for us to want to

[01:01:35] to really be knee deep in Night City.

[01:01:38] And I think for people who just you easily fell in love with Night City.

[01:01:43] There's a lot of incentive to do all these side quests.

[01:01:45] But for people like Cameron and I, where we just it was really difficult

[01:01:50] for us to fall in love with Night City.

[01:01:52] There was no reason to go outside the main quest line, you know?

[01:01:56] And so most of what I played was main quest line.

[01:02:00] I did some side quests as recommended by people in the discord or friends

[01:02:05] who are like, oh, you got to check this out.

[01:02:08] But I don't know, I found the main questline really immensely satisfying.

[01:02:11] So for like gameplay loop, I mostly was just like, all right, let's do let's do a main mission.

[01:02:18] Let's do a few of those tonight.

[01:02:20] And if I had downtime, it was like, oh, you need to wait 24 hours before something else

[01:02:25] can happen. Then I would go do a side quest.

[01:02:28] And so I never felt like there was nothing to do in Night City.

[01:02:32] But I don't know.

[01:02:34] I really just wanted to do main quest stuff.

[01:02:41] Yeah, I agree.

[01:02:42] It's they did a really good job with with most of the main quest stuff.

[01:02:45] It's you know, it's it's really it's it's it's pretty top tier in a lot of the cases.

[01:02:51] I had a lot of fun with like the Johnny Silverhand flashback flashback.

[01:02:55] Yeah, where he has like the the twirling revolver.

[01:02:59] Can you get that pistol in the game?

[01:03:03] I think you can.

[01:03:04] And that's like that's why I ended up using pistols.

[01:03:06] It was like, I was like, this is yeah.

[01:03:08] Yeah.

[01:03:09] Yeah.

[01:03:11] Keanu Reeves does a fine job.

[01:03:13] I think we didn't mention him at all, but Keanu Reeves.

[01:03:16] Yeah, he's Johnny Silverhand.

[01:03:19] Yeah, I mean, it's Keanu Reeves.

[01:03:21] He he has an instrument and he uses it in a very specific way.

[01:03:27] Well stated.

[01:03:27] He's very charming in a very Keanu Reeves way.

[01:03:30] And you get that charm in this game.

[01:03:34] Yeah.

[01:03:34] You know, Keanu doesn't work for me all the time.

[01:03:37] Oh, I think his he doesn't.

[01:03:40] Yeah, I just.

[01:03:41] He lost a little bit of his his intensity as he's gotten older, which is funny,

[01:03:45] because I feel like part of the character of John Wick is just being Keanu Reeves where

[01:03:49] he's like sort of low intensity, but then like high intensity at the same time.

[01:03:55] I don't know how to describe it anyway.

[01:03:57] Jake, let's move into the impact on the industry, because I think this is a big

[01:04:00] part of the conversation.

[01:04:01] This game just recently in the last week, I believe, or last week and a half,

[01:04:06] reached the coveted overwhelmingly positive on steam.

[01:04:11] Whoa, what a turnaround.

[01:04:13] After starting at extremely negative, most of you know if you're listening to this,

[01:04:19] that this game launched in an absolutely abysmal state.

[01:04:25] It wasn't anywhere close to the promises that were made like during the lead up

[01:04:31] in the marketing to this.

[01:04:32] They had to remove it from the PlayStation Store for like six months because it was

[01:04:37] so broken.

[01:04:39] It barely even to this day, like barely works on old gen consoles and I believe the

[01:04:45] two point update just flat out just doesn't work on old gen consoles, which

[01:04:51] there's going to be a big story released on like how this game ended up this way.

[01:04:54] And we know some things.

[01:04:56] Jake, what's the story of cyberpunk?

[01:04:58] Like they obviously redeem themselves.

[01:05:00] This game works now.

[01:05:01] I think CD Projekt Red was really in the red there for a while.

[01:05:06] And now it seems like they're back in the black and they're back on top.

[01:05:09] Is that I think we've proven a couple of times now that like even if it comes out,

[01:05:16] I don't know, like, you know, obviously you want to wait to release a game

[01:05:21] till it's ready, but it seems like we have two pretty good cases with this

[01:05:24] and with no man's sky of companies really turning things around and ended up making

[01:05:29] a fantastic critically acclaimed well-received very well received game and succeeding.

[01:05:37] I think that if cyberpunk 2077 had released in 2023, so post like quarantine pandemic stuff,

[01:05:51] I think CD Projekt Red would have shut down.

[01:05:54] I think that we live in a time right now in the video game industry where funding is so

[01:06:01] fickle and profit margins are expected to be so high that if you had a game launch in the

[01:06:07] state of cyberpunk 2077 when it did launch today, right?

[01:06:12] You would know that the axis coming on that company a few months later.

[01:06:17] And so what I think what this means is that when no man's sky and so when Hello Games

[01:06:24] and when CD Projekt Red had their blunders at launch of no man's sky and cyberpunk 2077,

[01:06:32] it was a vastly different video games industry.

[01:06:36] And that these were companies that were able to put in the work, the time and the money

[01:06:42] to recover their product and their reputation after years and millions of hours of dev labor.

[01:06:50] And so I maybe the cynicism of cyberpunk is getting to me.

[01:06:58] I think two years ago or like a year ago when the massive cyberpunk 2.0 launch came out and

[01:07:05] everybody started praising the game from then on out, I just am feeling like those moments are

[01:07:10] going to be increasingly rare in the current video game landscape.

[01:07:15] And I think we're seeing that with cases such as Arcane Austin and the inevitable

[01:07:22] acts that's going to drop on rocksteady after Suicide Squad killed the Justice League.

[01:07:26] And so a part of me kind of thinks that this sort of dream of a third party AAA studio

[01:07:33] turning their game around, the cynicism has gotten to me of Night City.

[01:07:39] I think that dream is largely dead.

[01:07:42] And so what is the story?

[01:07:45] What can people really learn about this about CD Projekt Red and cyberpunk 2077 up until this

[01:07:51] point is it's something that publishers don't want to hear and they're dealing with now.

[01:07:57] It's that you got to be crazy confident in your game and your game has got to launch well.

[01:08:01] And the folks who review your game will be absolutely cutthroat ruthless if your product

[01:08:10] sucks.

[01:08:11] And that is a lot of damage that you have to control and it will take years to overcome

[01:08:17] that.

[01:08:17] Now I hate to be such a downer with such a wonderful success story, right?

[01:08:23] Because cyberpunk 2077 was, I remember, I remember as if it was yesterday,

[01:08:31] the episodes that Cameron and I were recording like in the month up to release,

[01:08:36] the fever pitch was insane.

[01:08:39] Like the hype was, I don't think we've hit that level of hype anticipating a game

[01:08:46] since then.

[01:08:48] I don't even after the 2.0 update, the game still can't like doesn't live up to

[01:08:56] what was sold and described to us in the lead up to launch.

[01:09:01] Because that dude, you would think that this was like they were creating.

[01:09:07] It was like, I'm going to say something kind of mean.

[01:09:09] You would think that they are creating what Neil Druckmann is expecting to create

[01:09:14] with his next Naughty Dog game.

[01:09:19] I mean, that was that was did the expectation was very clear and apparent

[01:09:23] that this that cyberpunk at launch was going to literally change gaming for that

[01:09:29] wasn't like hyperbole.

[01:09:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:09:31] At that point, that was like the we expect this to be like the greatest,

[01:09:36] most immersive video game ever made.

[01:09:38] Yeah, folks, I think that lesson has been seared into the mind of publishers

[01:09:43] and developers everywhere.

[01:09:45] You cannot overhype a game because if it bombs, people are going to be cut

[01:09:49] throughout.

[01:09:49] They're going to be ruthless.

[01:09:50] PlayStation might just take you off the store for six months, you know,

[01:09:53] like, and then where are you going to get the funding to fix your game?

[01:09:58] Yeah.

[01:09:58] Well, not only did it not meet expectations at all,

[01:10:03] other than maybe graphically on a really strong PC, it it just didn't work.

[01:10:10] It flat out just like didn't run like it was not ready for launch.

[01:10:14] It needed another year.

[01:10:15] Yeah.

[01:10:17] And what's which is which is crazy because it already been in development

[01:10:21] for like seven years.

[01:10:22] Yeah, I was reading here.

[01:10:24] I have the Wikipedia page up and this is cited, right?

[01:10:28] They started development on it.

[01:10:29] So pre-production stuff after The Witcher 2 came out.

[01:10:33] That was a long time ago.

[01:10:36] Why that was two thousand games take way too.

[01:10:39] And this leads into the industry impact part of this conversation,

[01:10:42] which is games take way too freaking long to make

[01:10:46] and they're too big and they're too expensive

[01:10:48] and we can never make a game like Cyberpunk ever.

[01:10:51] And they're just too messy, right?

[01:10:53] Like, but Cameron's going to be so, so happy.

[01:10:57] I'm bringing this into the conversation.

[01:10:59] But look at the wonderful early access success story of Baldur's Gate 3,

[01:11:07] a game you've probably heard of that won a few awards here and there for two thousand twenty three.

[01:11:15] I mean, it's I know this is not right, but as the armchair dev armchair publisher that I am,

[01:11:25] a part of is like, dude, early access or solve some of these problems.

[01:11:29] But with Cyberpunk, that was clearly not an option, right?

[01:11:34] They weren't going to they weren't going to have that be an option on the table, dude.

[01:11:38] I think early access can really make sense even for AAA.

[01:11:42] And I think the reason for that is, is that you can put a game out with extremely low expectations

[01:11:48] while you're still working on it.

[01:11:50] Take the revenue for people who want an early right?

[01:11:54] Which Baldur's Gate 3 good example, sold a million copies three

[01:11:59] three years before it released in one not.

[01:12:02] You do an initial marketing way for like the early access release.

[01:12:05] So you get like a nice little cash boon.

[01:12:08] You keep working on it.

[01:12:09] Low stress, right?

[01:12:11] Low stress.

[01:12:11] You just like, oh, it's out in the wild.

[01:12:13] We're getting feedback.

[01:12:14] We're getting like bug QA and then like three years later or two and a half years later,

[01:12:20] whatever.

[01:12:21] Then you do your one dot marketing push and you get another like surgeons like people

[01:12:25] weren't even talking about Baldur's Gate 3 until one there was no expectation of that game.

[01:12:31] Right?

[01:12:32] That was another thing they did a pretty good job on.

[01:12:34] They did not set insane expectations, which looking at you,

[01:12:40] Sean Miller or whatever.

[01:12:42] Sean Murray.

[01:12:43] Yeah.

[01:12:43] Hello.

[01:12:44] Yeah.

[01:12:44] Light no fire.

[01:12:45] Nice.

[01:12:45] Yeah, which I mean he kind of he can kind of say that now because he figured it out,

[01:12:52] but you know don't put your foot in your mouth.

[01:12:54] Right?

[01:12:57] Yeah, no, I think you bring up a good point.

[01:12:59] I think early access.

[01:13:00] I don't know.

[01:13:01] I don't know if AAA executives maybe they feel like it's icky and they just like,

[01:13:05] no, we just want the game to be out there.

[01:13:07] We're not going to like put product out there without.

[01:13:10] I don't know.

[01:13:11] Yeah, I just think that whenever the book releases on what the heck happened at CD

[01:13:16] Project Red was cyberpunk that you can bet every single dev every single publisher.

[01:13:22] They're going to be reading that book.

[01:13:23] Like how do we not repeat that mistake because the kind of I'm here.

[01:13:29] I'm repeating myself, but that type of redemption.

[01:13:31] I don't think is currently possible in the gaming industry economic landscape.

[01:13:37] You cannot bank on a redemption story.

[01:13:39] You cannot bank on Bioware magic.

[01:13:42] You cannot bank on those things anymore.

[01:13:45] Literally right bank and funding, but also just expect right?

[01:13:50] So I don't know like impact on the industry.

[01:13:53] I think today it's it is this wonderful redemption story.

[01:13:56] I think sort of outside of the circumstances of its development.

[01:14:02] I don't know.

[01:14:03] I think people are going to really latch onto having so many endings available in

[01:14:09] one game.

[01:14:10] I think that is really cool, right?

[01:14:13] Where you do like I mentioned, I feel like that shape kind of, you know,

[01:14:17] you really really does take shape in the third act of the game.

[01:14:20] I'm trying to think of what else people are going to be talking about with cyberpunk.

[01:14:23] Other than that.

[01:14:24] Yeah, the game got so good and I loved it.

[01:14:29] Oh, I think that's the story.

[01:14:30] I think it's going to be this game is really good now.

[01:14:35] It released really poorly.

[01:14:39] But yeah, I don't know.

[01:14:40] I don't think developers want to make games like this anymore.

[01:14:44] I think I had heard an interview with one of the leads on the project on cyberpunk

[01:14:50] and they had talked about how incredibly difficult it was to do like their cinematics

[01:14:57] and and like dialogue, cinematic like dialogue and stuff like that in first person.

[01:15:05] And when they got into the engine, they realized like how freaking hard

[01:15:09] it was going to be to do that.

[01:15:10] And I was like part of the reason that development took so long.

[01:15:13] I think if I was one, if I was a director at one of these studios,

[01:15:17] if I was running a project, I would be doing everything in my power to figure out how can we

[01:15:22] stream and it's not like they weren't already doing this.

[01:15:25] I'm sure they were, but even more so now I would be doing anything and everything in

[01:15:32] my power to figure out how do we streamline stuff?

[01:15:35] Right.

[01:15:35] How do we like shorten?

[01:15:38] How do we reduce the scope?

[01:15:39] How do we make things faster?

[01:15:43] You know, and there's not always easy answers to those questions, but

[01:15:46] spider again, we go back to this.

[01:15:48] We go back to this all the time, but Spider-Man 2 costing 325 million.

[01:15:54] Dude, that is like, I don't know.

[01:15:57] I'd be calling out the ghost of sushi in my team and I'd be calling up sucker

[01:16:00] much of me like, how'd you guys do it, man?

[01:16:02] How'd you do it for 80 million?

[01:16:04] Dude, 80 million, like sub 100 million AAA game.

[01:16:09] That is like, that is the golden goose in my mind.

[01:16:13] If you can do that and sell a pretty solid amount of copies, like between,

[01:16:21] you know, somewhere between like, I don't know, 5 to 10 million.

[01:16:28] That's probably what you want for under $100 million budget.

[01:16:32] That's golden.

[01:16:34] But I just, you know, how many companies can do that

[01:16:38] with the expectations that have been set for AAA?

[01:16:42] Who knows?

[01:16:42] Yeah, I feel like how just to throw out like numbers,

[01:16:45] how awesome would it be to know that, hey, we need this game to sell 1.5 million units

[01:16:51] and then we will have made a profit even if it's tiny, right?

[01:16:57] Man, people, I feel like that should,

[01:17:00] that I would pick that number just because it's, you know, closer to,

[01:17:06] well, $100 million.

[01:17:07] But companies don't want five games that make 100 that make 100 million.

[01:17:15] They have shown that what they want is,

[01:17:19] and that they can't really pull that off is that they'd like to have one game

[01:17:23] that makes a billion to 2 billion, right?

[01:17:25] So like Fortnite, great example.

[01:17:29] Assassin's Creed, Valhalla made a billion dollars.

[01:17:33] You know, that's one game.

[01:17:34] That's like a Call of Duty level, like single player game

[01:17:37] worked on by like 1500 devs, right?

[01:17:41] Yeah, dude, it's, I don't know, something's got to change.

[01:17:45] Change is in the air.

[01:17:46] Cyberpunk, are we going to continue to see games like it?

[01:17:50] Honestly, I don't know.

[01:17:51] I hope I'm sure if nothing else, the biggest impact from this is that

[01:17:56] CD Projekt Red learned some lessons,

[01:18:01] and I don't think they're going to make that mistake again.

[01:18:03] If nobody else learned lessons, at least CD Projekt Red learned something.

[01:18:09] They definitely learn lessons.

[01:18:12] Bring this back full circle to our conversation at the beginning.

[01:18:18] Let's see, CD Projekt Red is currently doing a Witcher remake, right?

[01:18:24] So a remake of The Witcher from 2007.

[01:18:27] They have a lot of different sort of projects going on.

[01:18:32] They have, to my knowledge, The Witcher remake, the next Witcher game,

[01:18:37] and then I believe the next Cyberpunk game is in pre-production already.

[01:18:42] Yeah, that's what I have listed here.

[01:18:45] Yeah, and then also a secret project, I think.

[01:18:49] Is that correct?

[01:18:50] Maybe.

[01:18:52] Like it's like some code name to it.

[01:18:54] Oh, yeah.

[01:18:54] So again, folks, I'm just on the Wikipedia page, but it says here,

[01:18:59] let's see, remake of The Witcher, which let's see,

[01:19:01] they have Fool's Theory being a developer for that.

[01:19:06] Sequel to Cyberpunk 2077, and then they have CD Projekt's first original IP,

[01:19:12] whatever that could be.

[01:19:13] Which interestingly enough, the creative director or somebody

[01:19:18] cinematic director or whatever for Cyberpunk said they don't know if the next Cyberpunk game will

[01:19:24] still be first person.

[01:19:27] Yeah, which is very interesting.

[01:19:29] I would agree.

[01:19:31] I would agree.

[01:19:32] Which after the challenges they had making the thing in first person,

[01:19:37] kind of makes sense.

[01:19:39] Yeah.

[01:19:40] So we'll see.

[01:19:40] I don't know.

[01:19:41] I'm super glad that they had this turnaround story because the future looks bright for

[01:19:44] the things that they'll be producing, things that they're developing, and now

[01:19:49] they're back in everybody's good graces.

[01:19:50] So people will be excited about whatever it is that they put out next.

[01:19:59] Absolutely.

[01:20:01] Video game Cyberpunk 2077, it is out pretty much everywhere.

[01:20:07] It's regularly goes down for 30 bucks with that game.

[01:20:11] Plus the DLC, if not like 25 bucks.

[01:20:15] CD Projekt Reddit does a great job with like,

[01:20:18] do they drop that price and they hold it for a long time?

[01:20:22] If you haven't picked this up yet, it's definitely worth your time.

[01:20:26] It is an experience for sure.

[01:20:29] And there's a ton of value to it, ton of size to it.

[01:20:34] And there's a chance that you could absolutely adore this game.

[01:20:38] There's like a really high chance that you could.

[01:20:40] We have a few friends in the podcast who just love this game.

[01:20:44] I think Jake and I are maybe a bit more middle ground than maybe most people,

[01:20:49] to be honest.

[01:20:50] I feel like objectively, there's very little to actually criticize about Cyberpunk 2077.

[01:20:56] But subjectively, I was pretty lukewarm at the overall package.

[01:21:04] Yep, that's probably the best way to say it.

[01:21:06] Well, ladies and gentlemen, if you liked this episode on Cyberpunk,

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