Visions of Mana | Postgame Show

[00:00:00] You're now warping in to Fine Time

[00:00:16] Hello, party people. Hello, mana people. It's your boy, Dre, and I am here with Venn of Mana.

[00:00:24] The Wisp of Mana is floating right in.

[00:00:28] Ooh, delightful. Would you like to have a cup of tea, Wisp of Mana?

[00:00:33] I would love to have some tea of mana from the Sanctuary of Mana.

[00:00:37] It's a tea of mana. That's one of my favorite Penny Arcades is when they're making fun of Prince of Persia, Santa Time.

[00:00:44] They kept calling everything of time.

[00:00:46] You have to get the key of time to open the door of time, etc.

[00:00:52] Yeah, that's good. That's great. It's amazing.

[00:00:55] I mean, look, there's so many nouns of mana at this point.

[00:00:59] So, I mean, look, it's just as well.

[00:01:01] I mean, there's a what? Is it literally called Book of Mana or Art of Mana?

[00:01:05] Yeah, the art book is the Art of Mana.

[00:01:08] Art of Mana. Yeah, it's like fucking wow.

[00:01:12] Anyway, yeah, we're here to talk about the brand new game, Visions of Mana.

[00:01:18] And yeah, we're just going to dive right into this.

[00:01:21] So I want to say this first, though.

[00:01:23] This episode is going to feature something we haven't really done before on Fine Time.

[00:01:27] Because typically, we say up at the top, hey, spoiler spoilers, go away if you don't want to hear them.

[00:01:32] Here's what we're going to do this time.

[00:01:34] And I stole this from my friend Dave from Tales from the Backlog.

[00:01:36] We're going to have a spoiler wall.

[00:01:39] So after a certain point in this episode, we're going to say, hey, that's the end of the general discussion slash review of Visions of Mana.

[00:01:48] If you want to continue on with us, here is spoiler stuff.

[00:01:51] So don't worry, we're going to give you plenty of warning when we get there.

[00:01:55] But if you just want a general overview and just to hear us talk about the game in general terms and not get too far into the weeds as far as story and other stuff like that goes, you can definitely listen to this podcast and get that.

[00:02:08] So this is one time where I'm just like, fuck everything.

[00:02:11] And just spoiler city.

[00:02:13] No, we're not going to do that.

[00:02:14] We're going to put them behind a wall.

[00:02:15] So you're welcome.

[00:02:17] And thank you, Dave, for letting me steal this, even though I didn't ask him.

[00:02:22] I'm sure it's not patented.

[00:02:24] I'm sure it's not.

[00:02:25] Hey, I'm sure he stole it from someone else.

[00:02:27] Isn't that right, Dave?

[00:02:28] As if he's listening to this.

[00:02:29] You know, before we get into the game proper, though, let's just set a little bit of a stage here.

[00:02:36] Because earlier this year, we did Trials of Mana versus Trials of Mana.

[00:02:42] We talked about the SNES original and the 2020 remake, and we like both versions for different reasons.

[00:02:49] And at the end of that episode, we talked a little bit about Visions of Mana.

[00:02:53] And I said, I think if this game is simply not embarrassing, it'll have done its job.

[00:03:00] What do you think about that?

[00:03:01] Is this game just not embarrassing?

[00:03:03] Did the game do its job?

[00:03:05] It does its job.

[00:03:07] Whether it transcends that, I'm a little more skeptical.

[00:03:10] But yeah, it's not an embarrassing product.

[00:03:13] I mean, I played all these building up to this game because I'm a maniac.

[00:03:17] And let me tell you, half of these games are pretty embarrassing.

[00:03:21] I mean, Dawn of Mana.

[00:03:24] I mean, I know you gave each one a letter grade.

[00:03:26] You gave Dawn of Mana an F, right?

[00:03:28] Because it deserves one.

[00:03:29] Yeah, I did.

[00:03:30] I mean, I'm surprised you beat the game.

[00:03:32] I'm really surprised.

[00:03:33] I know you can put up with bullshit that I won't and vice versa, I guess.

[00:03:38] But man, I don't think I could ever bring myself to beat a game like Dawn of Mana.

[00:03:43] And you fucking did.

[00:03:44] It was hard.

[00:03:45] It was really hard.

[00:03:46] It was much suffering.

[00:03:47] I know you wanted to give up.

[00:03:49] But I did.

[00:03:51] Okay, but what made you push through?

[00:03:54] I gotta know.

[00:03:55] What actually made you?

[00:03:57] Did you look it up?

[00:03:57] It's like, oh, I'm not that far from the end.

[00:03:59] Or just like, I'll just try it again.

[00:04:01] Or what made you actually beat it?

[00:04:03] It's the lore, man.

[00:04:05] It's so crazy in terms of how it portrays some mana-like tropes.

[00:04:10] And incidentally, Visions of Mana also portrays these tropes in an interesting way.

[00:04:14] So I just had to see that.

[00:04:16] Whether it was worth that, I don't really know.

[00:04:19] But I had to see how it all kind of went down.

[00:04:21] Well, I asked you.

[00:04:23] I figured that might be the case.

[00:04:24] And that's why I asked you.

[00:04:25] Because I wanted the audience to understand.

[00:04:27] This guy played through an entire game that he gave an F for lore.

[00:04:34] That's how dedicated he is to mana.

[00:04:37] The lore of mana.

[00:04:39] So I just want people to understand what we're talking about here.

[00:04:43] Me, I think everyone knows already.

[00:04:45] I'm just more of a...

[00:04:47] I don't want to say casual.

[00:04:48] You know, I like mana games.

[00:04:51] But most of them are bad.

[00:04:52] So I don't play most of them.

[00:04:53] You know, when they're good, I play them.

[00:04:55] So yeah.

[00:04:56] Yeah, this one.

[00:04:58] I just think we should say as a baseline was good.

[00:05:02] On Blue Sky, I give a letter grade to every game that I beat recently.

[00:05:06] And I gave it a B minus.

[00:05:08] I think it deserves a B minus.

[00:05:10] I also gave it a B minus.

[00:05:12] Though I was tempted to give a B.

[00:05:13] But I think it deserves a B minus.

[00:05:15] It would have a B if it had better music.

[00:05:18] Which it doesn't.

[00:05:19] But we'll get to that later.

[00:05:21] I think we can now set the story and like the premise of the game.

[00:05:25] For people who haven't played it.

[00:05:27] And again, we're not going to spoil until later in the podcast.

[00:05:29] So let's just set the basic stage.

[00:05:33] Okay?

[00:05:33] So you begin the game not as our hero Val.

[00:05:36] But as a man named Oren.

[00:05:38] And Oren and his girlfriend Liza are trying to escape this town that they're in.

[00:05:42] And also escape Liza's fate.

[00:05:45] And Liza's fate is that every four years, a group of eight people known as the Alms make a pilgrimage, if you will, to the Mana Tree.

[00:05:54] To sacrifice themselves to the Mana Tree.

[00:05:56] To keep the balance of the world in order.

[00:05:59] For instance, if the Alm of Earth doesn't go to the tree, there might be some natural disasters like earthquakes or volcanoes or shit like that.

[00:06:07] Right?

[00:06:08] Something bad might happen with the elements if you don't do this.

[00:06:12] Okay?

[00:06:13] So Liza does not want to be a sacrifice to the Mana Tree because she's in love with Oren.

[00:06:18] They want to be together.

[00:06:20] Right?

[00:06:20] So they're trying to just escape.

[00:06:23] But that doesn't really happen because she turns into a pillar of stone.

[00:06:29] A living stone statue.

[00:06:31] Before they can make their leave.

[00:06:33] And then Oren escapes some other means.

[00:06:35] And then that's the beginning of the game.

[00:06:37] Then the real game begins with we meet our hero Val, his best friend Hina, in this town.

[00:06:45] She becomes an Alm.

[00:06:47] He's a soul guard.

[00:06:48] Val is a soul guard.

[00:06:50] A soul guard is someone who protects the alms as they make their pilgrimage.

[00:06:54] And the story begins from there.

[00:06:56] That's the basis of Visions of Mana.

[00:06:59] I gotta say a couple things.

[00:07:02] This is the best setup for a mana game ever.

[00:07:05] I know we're talking about a very low bar here because most mana games are just like, ah, you know, whatever.

[00:07:11] Mana Tree, Mana Sword, do this, do that.

[00:07:13] You know, the game's over.

[00:07:14] And that's fine.

[00:07:15] That's not even a complaint.

[00:07:16] That's just how mana games are.

[00:07:17] For then, for this game to give us some real backbone.

[00:07:21] It's like, huh, mana tree, sacrifices, etc.

[00:07:25] Huh.

[00:07:26] That's interesting for once.

[00:07:28] There's a lot more gravitas, right?

[00:07:29] Because the stakes aren't quite as readily apparent in most other mana games.

[00:07:33] The closest really ultimately is trials of mana in which, like, someone's kingdom can get ransacked and then they have to be on the run.

[00:07:41] Right?

[00:07:41] So, I mean, like, the fact that, like, Oren's on the run for, like, deeply personal reasons, like, it's pretty interesting, right?

[00:07:49] And those reasons we discover throughout the course of the story.

[00:07:51] And, yeah, this is a real trip, honestly.

[00:07:55] I really like this setup.

[00:07:57] Yeah.

[00:07:58] It introduces because it's there in that intro where he's like, we shouldn't have to sacrifice ourselves to this tree and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:08:05] Or the stuff Oren is saying.

[00:08:06] It's like, huh.

[00:08:07] You know, usually you wait till later in the game to get that sort of descent, right?

[00:08:10] But you're getting it right up front.

[00:08:12] And I think that's pretty good.

[00:08:14] The other great thing about this game from the outset for me was that the intro, god damn, just like literally the thing you see before the title screen comes on.

[00:08:24] And, yes, they say visions of mana.

[00:08:26] One of the characters says that, just like Trials of Mana 2020.

[00:08:30] This intro, man, look, you love the mana art.

[00:08:36] That is your favorite shit of all time, especially, like, the mana tree.

[00:08:40] Everyone knows the cover of Secret of Mana with the flamingos and the tree and everything, right?

[00:08:45] I think that's on the title screen as well.

[00:08:47] You get to actually, like, see that in living, breathing, quote unquote, real graphics now.

[00:08:54] I guess what I'm trying to say is it's very interesting to have a mana game where the mana tree is actually a thing, not this old prophecy or this old withered away thing that you have to revive maybe or whatever.

[00:09:08] Like, it's a real living, breathing thing.

[00:09:11] I think that's, like, really cool.

[00:09:13] A living, breathing thing that has skill because most of the time, at best, you're going to see, like, the trunk or whatever.

[00:09:18] Like, you're really not going to see much of it in the games themselves.

[00:09:22] Most of the sort of presence of the tree as a whole is really in the concept art for, say, like, Secret of Mana or Trials of Mana, right?

[00:09:30] So, I mean, like, Charles gets close to this sort of spectacle, but it doesn't quite get there.

[00:09:35] This really has that spectacle on full display, and that's just, like, mind-blowing, man.

[00:09:52] So, I guess that's our perfect inroad to talk about, like, just eating with our eyes first, right?

[00:09:58] Graphics, art, presentation.

[00:10:00] Where do you want to start with that?

[00:10:01] Because this game is beautiful.

[00:10:04] So, you start somewhere, and I'll piggyback off you.

[00:10:07] There is such a high level of fidelity, and, like, in sort of, like, middle-budget games, I often crack the joke that things look good so long as you don't aim the camera at any individual asset for so long.

[00:10:20] That's my favorite joke, right?

[00:10:21] But I was actually aiming the camera at, like, everything in this game, and, like, every corner looks so, like, fleshed out and so beautiful, right?

[00:10:29] And, like, it really does.

[00:10:31] Like, the talons are so alive and stuff like that, right?

[00:10:33] So, like, it's, like, there's so much detail and just so much to, like, look at.

[00:10:36] The foliage really, like, makes everything feel filled out, and it's so impressive, really.

[00:10:42] I think a good comparison point, and we're going to keep coming back to this throughout the course of this episode, is Trials of Mana 2020.

[00:10:49] Because that was the first real, quote-unquote, mana game in 3D.

[00:10:54] Yeah, it's a remake, and they're basing it off of something else.

[00:10:56] But that was the first time it's, like, okay, we're going to do this with, like, current-gen power at the time, right?

[00:11:02] So, we're going to keep coming back to that.

[00:11:04] And, yeah, this is a PS4 game as well, but, like, obviously we played the PS5 version, and this is such a dramatic step up from Trials of Mana from four years ago that it's not even funny.

[00:11:15] It makes that game look like child's play with the graphics.

[00:11:17] Not that that game was, like, bad-looking to begin with, but it was definitely kind of plain, and it was okay that it was because it's a Super Nintendo remake, right?

[00:11:26] This is on a completely other level.

[00:11:29] A Super Nintendo remake for a series that had yet to get back on its footing, right?

[00:11:33] Because, honestly, who really respects or remembers Adventures of Mana or Secret of Mana 2018?

[00:11:38] Like, not a whole lot of people do, right?

[00:11:40] It's so awesome.

[00:11:40] There's nothing to remember.

[00:11:42] It's the most one-to-one-ass, mostly remake, like, ever.

[00:11:45] It's just okay.

[00:11:46] Yeah, that's Secret Man.

[00:11:48] And the lighting, though, like, that was such an element that was quite impressive the entire run.

[00:11:54] It's not really present in Trials 2020, so just the fact that everything was, like, literally lit, that in itself was quite impressive.

[00:12:04] Like, truly.

[00:12:06] I definitely agree.

[00:12:07] The lighting is way stepped up.

[00:12:09] Trials of Mana is pretty flat in that regard.

[00:12:11] So, I mean, again, that's fine.

[00:12:13] It's just what it is.

[00:12:14] The character models, though, again, with Trials of Mana four years ago, that was the thing that really impressed me and made me have hope that that game was going to be good.

[00:12:25] Because they nailed the character models, and that's very, very hard to do.

[00:12:29] Even in this day and age, bringing something 2D to 3D is still, like, not an automatic win, right?

[00:12:36] You just, that, we never know how that's going to go.

[00:12:39] Trials of Mana did that so perfectly.

[00:12:42] Even the wackier stuff like Charlotte, which shouldn't have never worked in 3D, and it did.

[00:12:47] Oh, no way.

[00:12:47] It was, all six characters were impeccable.

[00:12:51] And now that we have this new game, Visions of Mana, with new characters, it's even more impeccable.

[00:12:57] Whoever worked on those must have worked on these and the same character artist or whatever, because you can tell.

[00:13:03] The characters in Visions of Mana are similarly beautiful.

[00:13:07] If there's anything that stands up to the series pedigree in Visions of Mana, it's that.

[00:13:11] The characters are so wonderful.

[00:13:14] And yes, indeed, the same character designer between the remakes and Visions, they're the same person.

[00:13:21] But these designs have the same spirit.

[00:13:24] They have the spirit of Mana of the earlier sort of entries, right?

[00:13:28] Like, they feel like they fit like a glove.

[00:13:30] And that's just so, so cool.

[00:13:33] Everybody is just so elegant.

[00:13:35] And, like, they really continue the legacy of the series, honestly, because it's a series known for its character art.

[00:13:43] Yeah, this is one aspect of the game that is perfectly spot on.

[00:13:48] Do you want to talk about some of the nuts and bolts real quick?

[00:13:50] Because I noticed there was a quality mode and performance mode in Visions of Mana.

[00:13:56] But they both run at 60.

[00:13:59] Really?

[00:13:59] So, okay.

[00:14:00] I don't know.

[00:14:01] I don't really know what was going on there.

[00:14:03] I guess you didn't really change it.

[00:14:04] Yeah, if you turned to the quality at 60, maybe it's just a higher resolution and then the frame rate is going to be whatever it is because it's 4K or whatever.

[00:14:12] I mean, it's still mostly run at 60.

[00:14:13] I guess there was, like, a few more hitches.

[00:14:15] I noticed when I turned down to performance, it was a flat 60.

[00:14:18] So maybe, I guess that's the only difference?

[00:14:21] I kind of just left it on performance, so I never really bothered.

[00:14:24] But I suppose I should have, like, switched it.

[00:14:27] But when you take a peek next time or you turn back on the game, just, yeah, it's still 60.

[00:14:34] It's weird.

[00:14:34] I don't know.

[00:14:35] But, you know, it's not 60.

[00:14:37] Some of them cut scenes, they're 30 still.

[00:14:40] And that's, like, pretty jarring, quite honestly, because these cut scenes more or less are designed with the actual in-game models.

[00:14:48] So, like, it doesn't really seem like enough is happening in the cut scenes that justify to 30.

[00:14:53] Like, presumably, it's just the way they built them for, like, all of the platforms, I guess.

[00:14:58] But, I mean, it's just kind of weird.

[00:15:00] That's the PS4, baby.

[00:15:02] That's the thing we're being held back on.

[00:15:04] Notice how long those load times were.

[00:15:06] That wasn't Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, that's for sure.

[00:15:09] No!

[00:15:10] So, like, I mean...

[00:15:13] It wasn't even 16.

[00:15:14] Yeah, no, dude.

[00:15:16] This is a PS4 game.

[00:15:18] I mean, that's all there is to it.

[00:15:20] That was filling.

[00:15:21] I should have...

[00:15:22] I didn't even bother, like, looking at the PS4 version.

[00:15:24] So, I would imagine those load times were longer.

[00:15:27] But this was a filling bar on PS5.

[00:15:30] You get to see that little rabbi jump.

[00:15:33] Yeah, it's probably not...

[00:15:35] I don't know.

[00:15:36] Doesn't look good enough to be warranting all that.

[00:15:38] You're telling me, like, I can load Gungaga in a snap?

[00:15:41] And, like, this game has to load?

[00:15:44] Like, please.

[00:15:44] I understand.

[00:15:45] It's not the same budget.

[00:15:46] But, you know, whatever.

[00:15:47] Yeah, not the same budget.

[00:15:48] Multi-skew life, everybody.

[00:15:51] Yep.

[00:15:54] Let's talk about, like, towns and dungeons.

[00:15:57] Like, locations, basically.

[00:15:59] And exploring them real quick, if you don't mind.

[00:16:03] Because here's...

[00:16:04] Besides the intro, when we get to the gameplay and you're finally unleashed,

[00:16:09] here's the first thing that impressed me about Visions of Mana.

[00:16:11] So, when you get going on your journey, you're going up that little path, right?

[00:16:15] To going, like, leading away from your village.

[00:16:18] Oh, so good.

[00:16:18] It's just a single path with, like, some trees on either side, right?

[00:16:22] So, like, typically, trees and foliage like that aren't meant for the character to walk around in.

[00:16:27] It's almost always fluff.

[00:16:28] It's just like, here is your path, motherfucker.

[00:16:31] And that's all you get.

[00:16:33] So, I was like, okay, how much freedom is this game going to let me have?

[00:16:35] So, I tried jumping on the trees and the foliage.

[00:16:38] It actually let me go out there.

[00:16:39] You go through it.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:41] And I was surprised because I was like, okay, they're really letting me do that.

[00:16:44] That's promising.

[00:16:45] And then you get to the next area, the first big area, like the rocky volcano place.

[00:16:51] There's, again, a path, but then there's also a lot of rocks that you can jump on and double jump on.

[00:16:56] And so, I started doing that.

[00:16:58] I was like, whoa.

[00:16:58] And then I looked off the cliff and there was an entire beach.

[00:17:02] And I was like, there's no way they're going to let me go down there, right?

[00:17:06] Like, they'll just stop me or I'm just going to die or fall to my death.

[00:17:09] And it's like, fuck it.

[00:17:10] I'll try.

[00:17:11] They did not stop me.

[00:17:13] I'm on the goddamn beach.

[00:17:15] There's treasure chests and enemies and everything down there.

[00:17:18] Like, the amount of freedom this game lets you have as far as movement and just looking around at stuff is incredible.

[00:17:24] I know this sounds pretty pedestrian to anyone who probably is not familiar with this series or the Trials of Mana remake.

[00:17:31] But then this was a shocker to me.

[00:17:34] I really didn't expect this amount of freedom.

[00:17:37] I didn't expect it either, particularly for a series kind of typically on rails most of the time.

[00:17:43] But, like, these semi-open areas, they were really, like, fantastic.

[00:17:48] I definitely explored these for, like, treasure chests and jumped around.

[00:17:52] In Trials remake, I really only got to jump around on, like, certain rooftops or, like, whatever, right?

[00:17:57] But in the areas themselves, like, sure, there's some places where you can, like, jump on the platforms.

[00:18:01] But this really, truly does the whole bit.

[00:18:04] And, like, there's just so much to look at in the distance.

[00:18:07] That's, like, the big thing to me.

[00:18:09] Like, things stretch, baby.

[00:18:11] Oh, yeah.

[00:18:12] You're seeing stuff.

[00:18:13] You're seeing stuff.

[00:18:14] I love the movement options.

[00:18:16] I already mentioned the double jump.

[00:18:17] But there's an air dash.

[00:18:19] Is it weird that you can just not only air dash but sort of infinitely air dash?

[00:18:24] Like Dynasty Warrior Strike Force or something that only you and I remember?

[00:18:28] By the way, this is a compliment, by the way.

[00:18:31] I love that you can do that.

[00:18:33] I mean, I totally did it to try to, like, cheese certain traversal sections.

[00:18:38] But I just, like, kind of – I'm like, can I make it if I just air dash infinitely?

[00:18:42] Occasionally I made this.

[00:18:43] More often than not, I didn't.

[00:18:44] But it's useful.

[00:18:46] Yeah.

[00:18:47] Well, you kind of – they get less – you kind of drop, like, a stone after, like, three of them.

[00:18:51] But you can still keep air dashing.

[00:18:53] You can still do it, yeah.

[00:18:54] You can still do it.

[00:18:55] Yeah.

[00:18:56] But I do want to talk some locations.

[00:18:59] You want to talk towns first, though?

[00:19:01] Because towns were pretty fucking cool in this game, if you ask me.

[00:19:04] Each and every single town was the welcome surprise.

[00:19:07] I mean, like, I really was looking forward to each and every single one.

[00:19:11] And quite honestly, they're all extremely distinct.

[00:19:14] I mean, for the most part, towns kind of exist as a formality in mana.

[00:19:18] There's some towns that stand out from others, especially those in Trials of Mana.

[00:19:23] But I definitely can safely say that each and every single one in this game was visually and, like, thematically distinct.

[00:19:29] That's, like, crazy to get down.

[00:19:31] Like, especially with how many there are.

[00:19:33] Early on, there's a – where the Alm of Wind is from, that place is, like, windmills and, like, just a sense of scale.

[00:19:42] The mountains and the airiness.

[00:19:44] It's wild, man.

[00:19:46] And it really makes mana come to life.

[00:19:48] And I did not expect that from the towns, even.

[00:19:51] Like, even early on, like, that's what we were chatting about.

[00:19:55] Like, pretty much right away.

[00:19:56] You brought up the towns.

[00:19:57] I'm like, yeah, those are pretty good.

[00:19:59] Yeah.

[00:19:59] All of the – yeah, with the streamers and the windmills and stuff like that.

[00:20:02] It looks really cool.

[00:20:04] My favorite was definitely the town with the water elevator.

[00:20:09] Like, you go up the thing and then you're in the – yeah.

[00:20:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:20:13] Is that where Palomina's from?

[00:20:14] I forget.

[00:20:15] Yeah.

[00:20:16] But that was, like, a Dragon Quest town.

[00:20:18] That was, like, a Dragon Quest castle, like, town, place.

[00:20:22] You know, that you'd see in, like, 11 or something like that.

[00:20:25] Like, that shit was so cool.

[00:20:27] You want to talk rooftops?

[00:20:28] That place had some wild, like, spirals and whatnot.

[00:20:31] It really, like, leaned into the whole bit.

[00:20:33] There was, like, an Undine statue just chilling.

[00:20:35] And I'm like, yo, man.

[00:20:37] Undine.

[00:20:38] I have to remember.

[00:20:39] I never know how to say it as a kid.

[00:20:40] I was like, Undine-y?

[00:20:42] I don't know.

[00:20:44] It might be Undine.

[00:20:45] Oops.

[00:20:46] I don't know.

[00:20:47] I don't know.

[00:20:48] I'm not even trying to call you out.

[00:20:49] I just – I literally don't know.

[00:20:50] I feel like each game wings it.

[00:20:54] I think they do, actually.

[00:20:57] I don't know.

[00:20:58] No, the towns are incredible.

[00:21:00] That one first port town you get to with all the, like, trees that are, like, kind of pink and blue or whatever.

[00:21:07] It's very surreal looking.

[00:21:09] But it's also awesome.

[00:21:11] It's great.

[00:21:12] Every single town is visually excellent.

[00:21:17] Shit.

[00:21:17] I even love that small town that's up against the cliffs.

[00:21:20] Dead A Cliffs where it's just like a – you know, just a few – almost like a few huts.

[00:21:24] And it's like a simple town, right?

[00:21:25] Like, mostly tents and stuff.

[00:21:27] But it's great.

[00:21:28] But it really creates the feeling of people living there.

[00:21:31] There's, like, so many animal folk.

[00:21:36] A lot of tails out there.

[00:21:38] And they all just having a good old time out there.

[00:21:40] Yeah.

[00:21:41] There's a lot of, like, weird – okay.

[00:21:42] So, like, there's a lot of – how do I even say it?

[00:21:45] There's, like, quote, unquote, regular humans, right?

[00:21:48] Then there's, like, dragon people where they have, like, a couple of dragon wings.

[00:21:52] There's people that are considered tailed.

[00:21:54] So, they have, like, a squirrel tail or a fox tail, right?

[00:21:58] And then there's, like, beast men.

[00:22:00] But then there's also, like, cat people, which are – are they also beast men?

[00:22:04] I don't know.

[00:22:05] I think technically, yes, by this game's lore.

[00:22:07] But, yeah, it's just the fact that it was there.

[00:22:09] It was, like – and these, like – they all inhabit, like, these areas.

[00:22:13] So, it was just, like, super cool seeing everyone just, like, in these places.

[00:22:17] Yeah.

[00:22:18] If I could talk about any location in – not in depth.

[00:22:24] Again, I don't want to spoil too much.

[00:22:25] But can we please just come together on Milo's Woods real quick and the Manitry?

[00:22:31] Because I think that's – it's the best manifestation I've ever seen of the Manitry, as I talked about before.

[00:22:40] But also, just the – everything.

[00:22:43] It really looks like you're walking through that art.

[00:22:46] Again, everyone's seen it, right?

[00:22:49] It really – the foliage, the way – even just the – those leaves that look like a fan almost, you know, with, like, the little – I don't know what kind of plant that is.

[00:22:58] But I think you know what I'm talking about.

[00:22:59] Those are there.

[00:23:01] The little curly flora and fauna.

[00:23:03] Like, everything you've seen in those art books and those art pieces, this is it came to life.

[00:23:11] It's legit one of the most impressive things I've ever seen.

[00:23:15] Going back to Dragon Quest XI, if anyone's played that, remember Yggdrasil, when you get to actually go there?

[00:23:22] This is like that, but even better.

[00:23:25] That's how cool Milo's Woods is and, of course, the Manitry itself.

[00:23:29] And that was also – like, Yggdrasil has plenty of spectacle, but yeah, just the amount of stuff to look at in this game.

[00:23:36] Like, I never in a thousand years would have expected Mana to look like this.

[00:23:42] It's incredible.

[00:23:43] I don't even know what else to say without – again, I'll just leave it there.

[00:23:46] But oh, okay.

[00:23:47] See, this is the kind of stuff where I actually do want to do a PS4 comparison because there's just no way.

[00:23:52] I don't believe it.

[00:23:54] There's no way.

[00:23:54] That amount of foliage –

[00:23:56] I think there's too much geometry for it to run, like, as well on PS4.

[00:24:00] I'm sure it's scaled back.

[00:24:01] Maybe we are homies at Digital Foundry or Annalisa de Bits to, like, help us out.

[00:24:08] Annalisa de Bits, maybe.

[00:24:10] Digital Foundry, I doubt it.

[00:24:11] They barely let John do East 10.

[00:24:13] They probably just let him do it because there was nothing else on the schedule.

[00:24:16] I doubt they're going to let him do Visions of Mana.

[00:24:19] Penny's Big Breakaway, I guess, man.

[00:24:22] Whatever floats your boat.

[00:24:23] Penny's Big Breakaway has 10 times more of the panache in this.

[00:24:27] I've been seeing a PS4 version.

[00:24:30] Look, I'm sorry.

[00:24:31] It's true.

[00:24:32] Before we move on from this, some people have said that, like, Visions of Mana takes cues from Xenoblade because of, like, the wide open areas.

[00:24:41] But I'd argue that it feels more like the recent Ys games, like, 8 and 9 and probably 10, which I haven't played yet as of this recording.

[00:24:51] Like, Xenoblade zones are fucking huge and expansive.

[00:24:55] I would never describe Visions of Mana that way.

[00:24:57] I think Ys is a much better comp.

[00:24:59] I agree.

[00:25:01] I would definitely say that Visions of Mana is not an open world game, though these areas are quite sizable.

[00:25:09] Maybe perhaps, like, it's a weird sort of thing to bring up, but perhaps, like, even Borderlands 2 may be, like, kind of expansive in that sort of sense.

[00:25:17] But they're still constrained, though.

[00:25:19] No, that's actually not a terrible comp.

[00:25:22] I think Borderlands 3 is probably, like, too much.

[00:25:27] Those are probably too big for what we're talking about.

[00:25:30] It's a little too big comparatively, yeah.

[00:25:31] No, that's actually not a bad comp.

[00:25:33] I'm not going to say much about the dungeons because I don't want to spoil, but I just want to say that nearly every single one in Visions of Mana is cool as fuck.

[00:25:42] There's unique visuals to each one.

[00:25:44] There's unique gimmicks to each one.

[00:25:46] They really worked on these.

[00:25:48] Again, I don't want to say what they are, but I think you can agree.

[00:25:52] I agree, particularly because the mechanics were striking and varied each and every single time.

[00:25:56] Because, I mean, really, honestly, as much as we love Trials of Mana, the dungeons don't really have the most mechanics in the world.

[00:26:03] Like, occasionally you'll get a switch, and, like, every so often you'll get to, like, talk to something and maybe use an elemental.

[00:26:10] But really, ultimately, like, those elementals are on full display here.

[00:26:14] And, of course, you won't say how, but, like, I love that stuff, man.

[00:26:17] I eat that up with a spoon.

[00:26:18] It's just so cool.

[00:26:19] Yeah, the dungeons are incredible in this game.

[00:26:23] Probably, shit, I think I'll say, I think there's got to be the best in series history.

[00:26:28] I don't think there's one's better.

[00:26:29] It's not closed.

[00:26:30] Yeah, for sure.

[00:26:32] Oh, yeah.

[00:26:43] Let's talk characters.

[00:26:44] Let's talk voice acting.

[00:26:45] Let's talk characterization in general, if you don't mind.

[00:26:48] What did you, well, let's start with the basics.

[00:26:50] Like, what did you think of our adventurers, our cast of characters this time?

[00:26:56] I really thoroughly enjoyed, like, how they bicker and converse with each other.

[00:27:01] Like, they really have a lot of personality, which is just like Night and Day with, like, Secret of Mana, which are basically just all but archetypes at that point.

[00:27:09] But these are way more than just archetypes.

[00:27:11] They feel like actual, like, characters that develop over the course of the story.

[00:27:15] And as mentioned before, like, they're all, like, different sort of races.

[00:27:20] And they really, they all feel visually distinct.

[00:27:24] That's, like, the big thing, too.

[00:27:26] It's just so cool.

[00:27:27] My favorite is definitely Morley, who I affectionately call Catman.

[00:27:31] Yeah, he's a cat man.

[00:27:34] Cat man.

[00:27:35] I really, he's great.

[00:27:38] What accent was that he was putting on?

[00:27:41] I don't know what that was.

[00:27:42] It was trying to be, like, weird.

[00:27:43] It was trying to be, like, mid-century United States continental accent or whatever that you might hear in a noir movie or something.

[00:27:51] But it was also, like.

[00:27:52] Yeah, but it also felt a little, like, there was a slight European bent to it.

[00:27:58] I don't know what that was.

[00:27:59] I was going to go with, like, Romanian castle lord or something.

[00:28:03] Yeah, see, that's what I'm saying.

[00:28:05] Like, Eastern European kind of, like, type of shit, right?

[00:28:09] Yeah, one step removed from being, like, a gothic vampire, though he's obviously not that.

[00:28:15] Now, I like their dialogue with each other.

[00:28:17] This is something, this is, again, by far the best writing in any mana game, for sure, I think.

[00:28:24] I mean, it just, like, look, I like the characters in Trials.

[00:28:29] But, like, the beat for beat dialogue, maybe not the most interesting, but that's okay because you get enough of it.

[00:28:36] Here, they're talking, baby.

[00:28:38] They talk a lot.

[00:28:39] Yeah, we get a lot.

[00:28:41] And I like to hear them.

[00:28:43] They're well acted for the most part.

[00:28:45] I think it's kind of haves and have-nots.

[00:28:47] I'm sorry.

[00:28:48] I couldn't stand Karina's bizarre southern accent.

[00:28:52] I'm not sure why they went there with that.

[00:28:56] Yeah, I'm not really sure.

[00:28:57] I actually didn't mind it.

[00:28:58] I thought, like, I actually kind of liked it to a degree.

[00:29:01] But, yeah, I was, like, not really sure why they went that direction.

[00:29:06] I really liked Hina's narrator moments.

[00:29:10] Like, as you go around the world and get to new places or whatever, she's, like, sort of narrating the story because you're mostly seeing it, those moments through her eyes.

[00:29:20] Because, you know, she's the Alm of what?

[00:29:22] Where are they from?

[00:29:23] Earth?

[00:29:24] Fire.

[00:29:25] She's the Alm of Fire.

[00:29:27] Fire.

[00:29:27] So, like, you know, yeah, she's Alm of Fire.

[00:29:29] She's kind of like you're reading her diary almost.

[00:29:32] I like that thing in a JRPG, I think.

[00:29:35] That's kind of something that always works on me.

[00:29:37] So I have to crack a really silly joke in that I really, really love these monologues, as it were.

[00:29:43] There's another mana game that I thought of regarding monologues, and that's a Sword of Mana.

[00:29:48] And those monologues are pretty, oh, God, they drag.

[00:29:52] It's like, I just want to get back to the game, but I actually wanted to, like, listen to these particular ones.

[00:29:57] But those Sword of Mana monologues, oh, God, man.

[00:30:01] They drag.

[00:30:03] Yeah.

[00:30:04] About the most, like, banal stuff, too.

[00:30:07] It's a lot.

[00:30:10] It's too much.

[00:30:11] It's way too much.

[00:30:11] Yeah, this game.

[00:30:12] This game.

[00:30:14] Yeah, I mostly wanted to hear what they had to say while walking around.

[00:30:17] They had a lot of quippy dialogue or whatever.

[00:30:19] I wanted to hear that stuff.

[00:30:20] So long as they weren't telling me how to play the game.

[00:30:22] Hey, maybe we should check our equipment.

[00:30:24] Like, I've had enough of that shit.

[00:30:28] Or when I was doing some grinding at the end of the game, they kept telling me, oh, you have a lot of money.

[00:30:33] You should go spend it.

[00:30:34] That's right.

[00:30:37] And it's like, dog, I know.

[00:30:39] Shut up.

[00:30:40] You don't have to tell me, like, every.

[00:30:41] I get it.

[00:30:42] I could use some new weapons and gear or something like that.

[00:30:45] It's like, what are you talking about?

[00:30:47] I think Palomina kept saying, we are flush with funds or something like that.

[00:30:52] We should go.

[00:30:53] It's like, okay, shut up.

[00:30:54] You have a lot of poker.

[00:30:56] Time to spend it.

[00:30:57] I know.

[00:30:58] Trust me.

[00:30:59] I know.

[00:31:01] Speaking of Borderlands, it's like that one thing at the end of the first game where they're like,

[00:31:05] shops have new inventory, like during the last boss fight.

[00:31:08] I'm like, wait, what?

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:10] It's like, okay.

[00:31:11] Oh, yeah.

[00:31:12] We saw that as the last boss was dying, it said shops have new inventory.

[00:31:16] It's like, bitch, we're about to see the credits.

[00:31:17] Like, I don't think we care right now.

[00:31:20] Yes, I can definitely go buy some new shit right now.

[00:31:24] Yeah.

[00:31:25] I'm going to turn around and just take care of that real quick.

[00:31:27] Bye.

[00:31:29] One thing real quick.

[00:31:30] Like, um, I really thoroughly was impressed just by the fact that having just done a replayed

[00:31:36] Secret of Mana 2018, that game's voice delivery is so flat.

[00:31:41] So it's wild.

[00:31:42] It's not the worst.

[00:31:44] It's not terrible.

[00:31:45] It's just not great.

[00:31:47] Like, Trials isn't that good either, but at least that has like some kitschy fun to it.

[00:31:54] I think.

[00:31:55] It's so fun.

[00:31:55] It's so fun.

[00:31:56] With like some of the, with some of the voices, the way they are.

[00:31:59] I think that's, it's like kind of fun.

[00:32:00] Secret of Mana 2018 is very flat.

[00:32:02] This is, this is the best of both worlds and visions.

[00:32:05] I think they're, you know.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] We, we still say, come again.

[00:32:11] From Trials.

[00:32:12] It's our favorite shit.

[00:32:13] Come again.

[00:32:13] Yeah.

[00:32:14] It's so, it's so good.

[00:32:15] They don't quite do that here, but they still, they actually have like all sorts of shopkeepers.

[00:32:20] So that's pretty cool.

[00:32:20] Well, they have the dancing shopkeepers.

[00:32:22] They do keep a lot of mana stuff like that, you know, and I'm very, I'm very grateful for

[00:32:27] that, that they do try to keep that flavor as much as possible doing something new.

[00:32:31] There's a couple of character moments I want to mention real quick.

[00:32:34] And again, I'm not, I'm not going to say anything too crazy or spoilery here.

[00:32:39] So don't worry.

[00:32:40] Um, the two I want to highlight is from Hina.

[00:32:44] There's a lot of stuff, whether it's in her diaries that we were, you know, voiceovers

[00:32:47] that we mentioned or just saying stuff to characters like, I wish we could do this forever.

[00:32:53] Or, you know, we still have to cherish this while we still can.

[00:32:56] You know, she has a lot of lines like that, that she says so many things like that, that

[00:33:01] I figured they might try to avert their fate eventually, just like we saw in the intro.

[00:33:07] So I'm thinking to myself, okay, guys, you have the chance to do something here.

[00:33:12] That's really, really cool.

[00:33:14] Are you going to do it?

[00:33:17] And I think they do.

[00:33:18] Again, I'm not going to say anything more than that before we get behind the spoiler

[00:33:21] wall, but then do you agree?

[00:33:23] Like, I think they actually did something cool.

[00:33:27] It really makes you empathize with her situation, particularly as she like really wants to like

[00:33:32] journey the world.

[00:33:33] We all want to journey the world, right?

[00:33:35] So I mean, like, it's a relatable sort of thing for her to say, like, I wish you could

[00:33:38] do this forever.

[00:33:40] And, but given the setup, which we mentioned, like, it makes you kind of wonder what's going

[00:33:45] to happen.

[00:33:46] And that's, that sort of intrigue is, is so cool.

[00:33:49] So I did not expect what happened.

[00:33:51] I'll put it that way.

[00:33:52] That's all I'll say before, before we get there.

[00:33:55] I don't think I got a good read on any of this game.

[00:33:57] Yeah, I didn't, I did not expect that.

[00:34:00] You want to tell, tell me about a character moment you liked.

[00:34:04] I have one more, but you say one.

[00:34:06] Yeah, without getting too much into the weeds, I really enjoyed Morley's character development

[00:34:12] early on when you meet him.

[00:34:14] He's pretty standoffish.

[00:34:16] I mean, that sort of standoffish behavior doesn't really linger for too long, but the

[00:34:21] dude has a lot of previous regrets and emotional baggage, right?

[00:34:24] And that's kind of like his defining thing at the beginning.

[00:34:27] But pretty quickly, you see his heart thaw throughout the course of the, of the journey.

[00:34:33] He, he sees like his former, like mentor who taught him like swordsmanship, like pretty

[00:34:37] quick.

[00:34:38] And then the, that NPC is like cracks references to how he's changed.

[00:34:42] And I'm like, oh, that's actually really neat.

[00:34:45] That's super cool.

[00:34:47] That is cool.

[00:34:48] That NPC will, which I will not name.

[00:34:51] I will just say that they are a staple in mana games.

[00:34:56] I don't think I ever expected him to look like this game.

[00:35:00] I think it's great.

[00:35:01] You know, but yeah, I did not expect that.

[00:35:04] It's, it's fantastic.

[00:35:06] I won't say who it is though.

[00:35:08] Um, I, there's one other thing I want to highlight.

[00:35:10] I think my favorite overall like conversation in the game is when you get to that hippie

[00:35:15] town, sata, everyone's free to do what they want and what's mine is yours and vice versa

[00:35:21] that bullshit.

[00:35:21] Um, and so there's a beast man named glyph.

[00:35:28] Who questions the hell out of what Val is doing because it's obvious.

[00:35:32] Glyph thinks this whole cycle of sacrifices bullshit, but that was response is really key

[00:35:38] because typically what happens in games like this is that the character's worldview was

[00:35:43] questioned and then they get all mopey about it.

[00:35:45] Oh, maybe are we doing the right thing?

[00:35:47] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:48] You know?

[00:35:48] And that's like a whole thing.

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:50] What, what happens here is that Val is like, yeah, there's a lot of things about this world.

[00:35:56] I don't know about, but I won't find the answers until, unless I continue doing what

[00:36:02] I'm doing, being a soul guard.

[00:36:04] That's the only way I'm going to discover what this is.

[00:36:07] I'll find out what's going on along the way.

[00:36:11] And I thought that was great.

[00:36:12] This was an actual substantive character moment, you know?

[00:36:16] And I, again, folks, we're talking about a mana game here, you know, Jesus Christ.

[00:36:21] Like I never thought I'd get this from that.

[00:36:24] So it was, I just thought that was very notable.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:27] I definitely think it was notable as well.

[00:36:30] And honestly, like Val is such a good natured person.

[00:36:34] So for him to actually like take these things into consideration, it's pretty impressive.

[00:36:41] Because most protagonists would totally just be like, nah, I'm like, I've got to do my

[00:36:45] thing.

[00:36:45] But he actually expressed some degree of like thought about it, which was pretty interesting.

[00:36:51] Especially actually seeing an NPC question, like the whole thing like this.

[00:36:54] I mean, most people, most people previous games wouldn't really care that much.

[00:36:59] I should be like, ah, nah, get the elementals, whatever.

[00:37:01] Get your spirits, get your mana seeds, whatever.

[00:37:04] Fine, right?

[00:37:04] Yeah.

[00:37:05] Mana sword.

[00:37:05] Okay, whatever.

[00:37:06] Sure.

[00:37:06] Yeah.

[00:37:08] Fine.

[00:37:08] That'll work.

[00:37:09] Yeah.

[00:37:09] Get all the, put all the, crout all the elementals into like one spot.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:12] Just do that.

[00:37:13] It'll work out.

[00:37:14] Right.

[00:37:14] You're getting kicked out of your village for no reason for stuff that isn't your fault.

[00:37:18] Okay.

[00:37:18] Whatever.

[00:37:19] Yeah.

[00:37:20] It's just, everything is so tied together in this game.

[00:37:23] It's, it's pretty neat.

[00:37:25] All right, Vin.

[00:37:26] We talked about all the good stuff, but now it's time to talk about,

[00:37:29] all the bad stuff.

[00:37:30] Break first though.

[00:37:31] You're coasting with fine time.

[00:38:10] Okay.

[00:38:10] We're back.

[00:38:11] We're in bad land.

[00:38:12] We're no, we're no longer in Milo's woods and the good, the good places.

[00:38:16] We are now in the bad place.

[00:38:18] By the graces of the goddess of manna, I name you the alm of pepperoni.

[00:38:25] What?

[00:38:26] I thought you were going to say like the alm of assholery or the alm of contentiousness or

[00:38:31] something.

[00:38:32] Cause we're going to be criticized.

[00:38:34] The element known as contentiousness.

[00:38:35] Okay.

[00:38:36] Okay.

[00:38:36] I'm sorry.

[00:38:37] I'm sorry.

[00:38:38] The element known as pepperoni.

[00:38:39] That was, that was better.

[00:38:40] Okay, cool.

[00:38:41] Yes.

[00:38:41] You got me.

[00:38:42] Okay.

[00:38:43] God, I'm the one being silly.

[00:38:45] Okay.

[00:38:48] Oh, you want to talk getting silly?

[00:38:50] We're going to get super silly because we're going to dive into some shenanigans in this

[00:38:55] game's mechanics.

[00:38:56] Oh, we will.

[00:38:57] But okay.

[00:38:58] Let me start here.

[00:39:00] So what I'm about to mention has also been a problem in other RPGs, but those games overcome

[00:39:06] it in other ways.

[00:39:08] I don't think visions of mana does overcome it.

[00:39:10] And it's that all the RPG stuff kind of sucks.

[00:39:14] I think like all the, I'm talking like equipment, like armor and weapons and like accessories

[00:39:22] and stuff like that, like stuff you equip.

[00:39:24] None of that stuff is very exciting or very good or feels very good to equip because this

[00:39:30] is a fairly low damage game and like enemies have high HP and it just never doesn't matter

[00:39:37] what you equip and never really feels like you're getting any stronger.

[00:39:40] It doesn't feel like you take them out faster.

[00:39:42] There's seeds that you can equip such as like, do 10% more damage to this or don't or don't

[00:39:49] or have resistance to this ailment or whatever.

[00:39:53] But it's like none of that stuff feels great, right?

[00:39:56] Dude, it's so deflating.

[00:39:59] That's the overview I want to present to you before we get into the weeds a little bit here.

[00:40:05] Do you agree or disagree?

[00:40:06] I totally agree because the equipment isn't particularly exciting.

[00:40:10] The game has so many options.

[00:40:12] There's an overabundance of decisions that you can make, but none of them really add up

[00:40:17] to anything or really affect the game now, do they?

[00:40:20] Because I mean, look, each character could equip one of three weapons, which is interesting

[00:40:24] on paper, but it doesn't rightly matter what you equip.

[00:40:27] It's like, yeah, sure.

[00:40:28] Val's a great sword and he also has like a long sword, but like in all honesty, no matter

[00:40:33] what you pick, it doesn't really matter.

[00:40:36] It really ultimately doesn't.

[00:40:38] And regarding these ability seeds, that system drove me nuts.

[00:40:41] Like you barely have any ability seed like slots at the beginning of the game.

[00:40:45] And it's like, do I really want to use one of my two slots to equip some random thing?

[00:40:50] It's like, it's like a percent bonus.

[00:40:52] It just, it feels bad, man.

[00:40:54] And like, well, there's one particular instance I want to mention.

[00:40:58] I just opened a chest and I got some like saber casting elemental saber spell out of a

[00:41:02] chest just completely randomly.

[00:41:04] And I'm like, okay, this is a thing that I can choose to do all of a sudden.

[00:41:08] It's just like, it doesn't feel good.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:12] The fact that like those ability seeds can also be like spells is also not very exciting.

[00:41:18] Like on the surface, that should seem okay.

[00:41:19] Right.

[00:41:20] But that's another big problem with this game.

[00:41:22] And I feel like it's prudent to mention it now.

[00:41:24] Magic kind of sucks in vision as a mana.

[00:41:28] And that's a big problem.

[00:41:29] I think anyone who's played secret of mana or trials of mana knows that how that stuff

[00:41:34] works.

[00:41:34] The ring system.

[00:41:36] Oh, fireball.

[00:41:37] Oh, a moon saber, whatever.

[00:41:39] Like those things are very, very powerful, especially in secret of mana.

[00:41:43] Since the more you use them, the more they level up.

[00:41:46] I think it doesn't work that way in trials.

[00:41:48] Right.

[00:41:48] I don't remember.

[00:41:49] No, it doesn't.

[00:41:50] It really doesn't.

[00:41:51] Yeah.

[00:41:51] I didn't think so.

[00:41:52] Okay.

[00:41:53] But you know, everyone knows that system, right?

[00:41:55] We've all grinded out spells and such.

[00:41:57] I'm not saying that visions should have the exact same system.

[00:42:00] I'm just saying that magic being good and a very good tool to use throughout the game

[00:42:06] should be a part of mana.

[00:42:07] And vision simply doesn't have that.

[00:42:09] It doesn't matter because really, honestly, most of the time you can just have physical

[00:42:13] attackers whomp on somebody and score the same effect.

[00:42:16] I mean, just for variety's sake, I did throw in the magic attack magic user Palamana just

[00:42:21] to shake things up.

[00:42:28] And yeah, sure.

[00:42:29] I did like exploit some elemental weaknesses, but in general speaking, a lot of the spells

[00:42:33] just kind of don't have that impact, especially all the like the non elemental stuff or like

[00:42:37] the lower level, like elemental stuff.

[00:42:39] It just kind of exists, man.

[00:42:41] And it's like, there's so much of it though.

[00:42:43] There's so much of it and none of it really does anything.

[00:42:46] If you get deep in the elemental plots, more on that in a second, you can find some pretty

[00:42:50] powerful spells, but they also take a hell of HP and the cast time or whatever.

[00:42:55] So I don't, I still don't actually think they're worth doing in my opinion.

[00:43:00] It's so much.

[00:43:01] And secret of mana is just so known for it's a crazy powerful magic.

[00:43:05] Everybody jokes about chain casting, like just stun locking someone with spells.

[00:43:09] And of course that stuff is kind of too busted, but even in like a trials of mana, like magic

[00:43:14] in general, like feels better than this.

[00:43:16] And I love the magic in that game.

[00:43:19] I think it's really good.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:21] It has a really good balance because that game is a bit more mashy as term in terms of

[00:43:25] like using your weapon.

[00:43:26] So yeah, maybe like spells aren't as important as secret of mana, but they're still important.

[00:43:32] They're still really important and you can't really get by without them.

[00:43:35] Um, yeah, they, they, they ultimately affect the game in meaningful ways, which is not

[00:43:40] the case here.

[00:43:42] So I guess in general, I feel like action RPGs like this really rely on like a very basic

[00:43:50] system that's as basic as the gameplay itself.

[00:43:53] You know, like you get, you get new sword, you are much more powerful.

[00:43:57] You get new armor.

[00:43:59] You can, you take much less damage.

[00:44:00] I think that like very almost kind of boring lock, stock and barrel RPG stuff is important

[00:44:07] to games like this.

[00:44:08] And this game just doesn't have that.

[00:44:10] So I don't know.

[00:44:11] I just think it's bad when your equipment doesn't feel like it matters.

[00:44:15] So I guess that's all I can.

[00:44:17] Yeah.

[00:44:17] I guess to some degree that the weapons have cool models and that's about it.

[00:44:21] They look cool.

[00:44:22] That's not much else.

[00:44:23] That's about it.

[00:44:24] They don't feel very powerful to use.

[00:44:26] You want to talk about the elemental plot real quick, because again, we were trying

[00:44:31] not to get too far in the weeds on the RPG stuff here, because I just don't think it's

[00:44:35] that interesting to talk about because it doesn't do anything cool.

[00:44:38] Right.

[00:44:38] If it did, I would want to talk about it.

[00:44:40] But you can you summarize for the people?

[00:44:43] The elemental plot is basically the new class system.

[00:44:47] You sort of like tap into the power of an elemental to become a new class.

[00:44:53] Right.

[00:44:53] So, of course, there are a bunch of elementals.

[00:44:56] So that leads to a bunch of different classes that each on paper have their own skills.

[00:45:02] But when you actually do assign an elemental to somebody, you go through this whole like

[00:45:07] Saint Seiya-esque transformation sequence.

[00:45:09] It's like super over the top.

[00:45:11] It's so good.

[00:45:12] The music, too, makes it like it's really good.

[00:45:16] It's so dramatic.

[00:45:17] Yeah.

[00:45:18] You have all the dramatic chanting.

[00:45:20] They're clearly pre-rendered out because they're 30 frames a second.

[00:45:22] They look like hella like just high spec videos or something.

[00:45:26] But it's like.

[00:45:27] They do.

[00:45:27] But I didn't mind.

[00:45:28] I didn't mind.

[00:45:29] They're good.

[00:45:30] But the fact that like think about what you're saying.

[00:45:32] We're talking about like eight elementals here for like the character.

[00:45:36] So they have like eight different fucking like outfits and eight different paths for spells.

[00:45:42] That's a lot of stuff.

[00:45:43] And especially like we said, magic isn't very exciting in this game.

[00:45:47] And it just quite frankly sucks.

[00:45:50] It kind of undermines the entire thing.

[00:45:52] Right.

[00:45:53] Because like none of the stuff you get from any of those things is very exciting.

[00:45:56] I guess to me, I think the best thing you get from any of those eight things you can equip is like the I forget what they called the R2 power.

[00:46:05] You do some sort of super attack or some sort of specialized like attack, like put them in the bubble or set them on fire or something.

[00:46:11] Those are cool, but that's it.

[00:46:14] Yeah, I mean, those are those do affect the game.

[00:46:17] But like again, like this class system is just like the rest of the game.

[00:46:21] It doesn't really necessarily feel the best, particularly because it takes so many resources to level them up.

[00:46:26] So you sort of feel compelled to like stick with one.

[00:46:29] If you try to diversify, it also doesn't let you access the passives of other classes.

[00:46:35] So like you can sort of mix and match spells.

[00:46:37] But like if you have all your points in another basket, it feels weird to change it.

[00:46:44] And it's very strange.

[00:46:47] And also like there are different attacks that you unlock via each class.

[00:46:51] But I never bothered using any of these could be entirely honest, except for that R2 power.

[00:46:56] Yeah, because that's that's the best one that actually affects the game the most.

[00:47:00] The other ones aren't that aren't that exciting.

[00:47:02] You know, once again, so yeah, it's okay.

[00:47:05] I yeah, I know.

[00:47:07] Right.

[00:47:07] I appreciate the effort, but the stuff you can do with them isn't that good.

[00:47:12] So it just doesn't amount to much.

[00:47:14] I left Catman on moon the whole time.

[00:47:16] I didn't really change it for it.

[00:47:18] Yeah.

[00:47:19] Like, why would I ever change it?

[00:47:20] And again, you don't really get enough ability points to like really explore all the trees the way you might want to.

[00:47:26] Yeah.

[00:47:26] Until you get to damn near the end of the game.

[00:47:28] And it's like pretty well, then what's the what's the point then?

[00:47:30] Right.

[00:47:31] Like, who cares?

[00:47:31] And another nitpicky thing that bothered me at the from like most of the game was that, well, like these classes are have to use each class has to use a specific weapon.

[00:47:41] So I felt constrained by that, too.

[00:47:43] So I was like, why in the world would I want to buy a brand new weapon for like a different class?

[00:47:47] Right.

[00:47:47] It's like, I'm just going to stick with Val's great sword.

[00:47:49] Like if I don't want to buy a new weapon for this.

[00:47:51] So it's like it's awkward.

[00:47:52] Right.

[00:47:52] It's like super weird, like trying to experiment because you don't get the you don't get to do that.

[00:47:56] Yeah.

[00:47:57] It's very awkward because like I noticed that, too, because it's like, OK, there's this new shop I'm at and they have this new sword or whatever.

[00:48:04] But that was on a class where he's using the lance, not the sword.

[00:48:07] So do I get the sword and then change my class again to like one that uses that?

[00:48:12] And then like, but then I'm on a different elemental and then I have to build that up.

[00:48:17] Do I have the ability points to do that?

[00:48:18] None of the systems work in concert with each other.

[00:48:21] Yes.

[00:48:22] That's the best way of putting it.

[00:48:24] And it's it's it's not the worst, but it's also just again, awkward is the perfect word for it.

[00:48:30] Oh, yeah.

[00:48:31] It's just I wish it all sort of came together more compellingly.

[00:48:36] But I mean, at least they look cool, I guess.

[00:48:49] Let's talk battle system.

[00:48:53] Oh, man, I don't.

[00:48:54] There's a lot to say, and I don't know where to.

[00:48:56] OK, you know what?

[00:48:57] Let me start here.

[00:48:57] Because we've been doing a fair amount of comparing to the trials of mana remake up to this point, because that was the only game in 3D, a mana game in 3D that wasn't ass.

[00:49:11] So like the battle system is like somewhere where we really have to directly compare.

[00:49:19] Because we've talked before, especially in our trials of mana podcast from earlier this year.

[00:49:26] Thank you if you listen to that, by the way, we talked about how old mana games can be a bit tricky with its very strange manner of turns.

[00:49:35] Even though it's not a turn based game, it's a real time game.

[00:49:38] But there's an internal logic to the way things stack.

[00:49:42] And once you get used to that, you have something that's really, really unique that honestly no other action RPG really has.

[00:49:49] You know, it's this very careful mix of whomping on enemies and while also watching your health like a hawk.

[00:49:55] And then like bringing up the ring menu, not just for a breather because it pauses the game, but also to use like, OK, should I use a chocolate to heal myself?

[00:50:04] Should I use a fireball to use this?

[00:50:05] Do I have the cast time for that?

[00:50:07] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:50:07] You're weighing all these decisions almost like a turn based game, but it's real time.

[00:50:12] And that was the appealing part of mana.

[00:50:14] The Trials of Mana remake is perhaps less quirky in some good ways, by the way, but it still retains that essential flavor that makes mana mana.

[00:50:24] It does.

[00:50:25] And simply put, Visions of Mana just doesn't have that.

[00:50:29] Sure, it's clearly based off the battle system from the Trials remake, but it's not as good for several reasons I guess we'll get into.

[00:50:38] But I'll stop talking for now.

[00:50:40] What do you think about what I just said?

[00:50:41] Do you agree, disagree, etc.?

[00:50:43] I totally agree, because again, much akin to the RPG systems, it just sort of feels like stuff is happening.

[00:50:49] If you go into a typical battle, you see a bunch of like familiar faces all grouped up together.

[00:50:56] And they just kind of stand around until you're there.

[00:51:00] But really, ultimately, it just goes down to mashing square.

[00:51:05] Occasionally, you have to heal, but then eventually they go down like they're usually pretty spongy.

[00:51:10] And that's about it.

[00:51:12] Like you can't ever repeat.

[00:51:13] And there's not much impact.

[00:51:15] That's the biggest thing.

[00:51:17] There's no impact.

[00:51:18] And you just it's like you said, you go up to them and jam on square and they're dead.

[00:51:21] I feel like they hardly try to attack you.

[00:51:24] I'm not saying they don't hit you, but it also doesn't feel very threatening.

[00:51:28] I feel like they I feel like they're just waiting for you to show up.

[00:51:30] And they just kind of they're waking up from a nap.

[00:51:33] They have this like animation where it's like, oh, I guess it's time to fight now.

[00:51:37] And they're halfway dead by the time they decide to do anything about you, if they do anything at all.

[00:51:41] If so, I think.

[00:51:43] So I think that's what we're illustrating.

[00:51:45] The first aspect of what's not good about the battle system in Visions of Man is that the enemies just aren't exciting to fight.

[00:51:51] They don't do any cool attacks to you.

[00:51:54] You don't really do that many cool attacks to them.

[00:51:57] It's just swingy, swingy the sword or whatever your weapon is, depending on the character you have.

[00:52:02] And that's it.

[00:52:03] It's so flat and basic.

[00:52:06] Spongy life bar go boom.

[00:52:09] Spongy life bar go boom.

[00:52:11] It's it.

[00:52:12] It sucks.

[00:52:13] It's such a big step backwards.

[00:52:16] And talk about going backwards.

[00:52:19] The thing I noticed right away when I started this game and right away from the tutorial is that there's no charge combos, man.

[00:52:27] Like Dynasty Warriors style charge combos, like what you do, square, square, and then triangle for like a sort of heavy attack to clinch it off.

[00:52:36] And then you can press like in Charles remake, you press like square like three times and then press triangle for something else.

[00:52:42] And that kind of stuff adds a bit of like of an interesting variety to the combat.

[00:52:47] And they also do different, like completely different types of attacks.

[00:52:50] So there's, you know, situationally relevant.

[00:52:53] But this game doesn't have anything like that.

[00:52:56] It's just you literally just press square over and over again.

[00:52:59] And then or you can choose a press triangle to do stuff.

[00:53:03] And if you unlock some stuff in your elemental plot, sometimes you can stagger your square presses to do some stuff.

[00:53:08] Maybe.

[00:53:09] But it's like, why would you take combos like out?

[00:53:12] It's like it's strange, man.

[00:53:14] It's a baffling decision.

[00:53:16] It's absolutely baffling.

[00:53:17] Because like, do you actually?

[00:53:18] OK, I'll ask you.

[00:53:19] Did you use that triangle button for anything?

[00:53:21] Because I don't even know what it's good for half the time.

[00:53:23] Uh, I don't think I usually press it most of the time.

[00:53:28] I think with I think Catman, he warps around or something if he's on the move.

[00:53:32] Does it depend on your elemental?

[00:53:33] I really don't know.

[00:53:34] I guess it is weapon dependent.

[00:53:36] Um, weapon dependent.

[00:53:38] But I think you can hold it down in specific classes and not others.

[00:53:42] I think the fact that we're just like, we don't even know is like a big failing on this game's battle system.

[00:53:48] Trials remake has you like literally use the square, the triangle button to like break shields.

[00:53:54] It very definitively does that.

[00:53:56] It sets that up and this game doesn't set anything up like that.

[00:54:00] There's nothing cool.

[00:54:01] Yeah, nothing.

[00:54:02] Nothing like that.

[00:54:03] It's just very mechanically boring as hell.

[00:54:06] That doesn't necessarily mean that battles are completely boring.

[00:54:09] I mean, you are it looks pretty and you're hitting some dudes around and occasionally you do like a big attack.

[00:54:15] What do you think of that?

[00:54:16] By the way, before we get back to charge combos, is that like it sort of retains a super attack aspect of trials of mana.

[00:54:23] But now it's just like the bar feels 100 and you do like one screen clearing thing.

[00:54:27] There's no real finesse anymore.

[00:54:28] I guess they look cool.

[00:54:30] They look really cool.

[00:54:31] They look really, really cool.

[00:54:32] But here's the clincher like I was impressed at first until I realized they actually copy and paste them depending on the weapon type.

[00:54:40] So like if you're a great sword, all the great sword screen clears are going to look the same.

[00:54:45] And it's like once I realized that I'm like, oh, yeah, it's just like it's kind of I mean, I guess maybe expecting eight for each characters, maybe a little much.

[00:54:55] But still, like, don't I don't know, man, they should have just been character dependent of just like trials and whatever go from there.

[00:55:02] But again, going back to charge combos, it's like you said, their utility.

[00:55:08] Like when you do charge two in Dynasty Warriors, that usually breaks the enemy's guard or pops them up or something.

[00:55:14] If you do charge four, that's usually like a big sweep that knocks out a bunch of grunts or something.

[00:55:18] You do different things to cause different effects on the field to crowd control, you know, one on one battles, whatever.

[00:55:25] Right.

[00:55:26] Sure do.

[00:55:27] Again, Visions of Mana doesn't have that.

[00:55:30] And Trials did.

[00:55:31] I just again, I hate to compare so directly.

[00:55:34] It's so hard not to.

[00:55:35] That game just came out four years ago and we just played something better.

[00:55:39] So like I it's impossible for me not to compare.

[00:55:43] They nailed the flow so well in Trials remake.

[00:55:46] It feels so like freeform, but it like definitely impactful.

[00:55:50] And that was the one thing I wanted from this game and it didn't really deliver it.

[00:55:55] So I'm just like, Matt, the fact that we're even mentioning just mass square, it's kind of kind of a bit of a downer.

[00:56:00] Like that's something I'd assign to more like children of man or something in retrospect.

[00:56:05] Yeah, man.

[00:56:06] It's just that it sucks.

[00:56:08] I mean, look, we it's not as bad as Legend of Mana or something like it's not that stupid.

[00:56:13] Yeah, that's the worst.

[00:56:14] That's the worst mana battle system by far.

[00:56:16] OK, it's not bad.

[00:56:18] Anyway, we can go on and on.

[00:56:20] But suffice it to say, battles are largely not as good as previous games.

[00:56:25] And that is a huge bummer.

[00:56:27] In fact, I might say.

[00:56:28] In fact, I would say I'll correct myself that that would be the worst part of the game.

[00:56:34] But this is actually the worst part of the game.

[00:56:40] And that would be the bosses.

[00:56:43] Oh, God.

[00:56:44] Then I think this is the worst part of the game.

[00:56:46] Straight up.

[00:56:47] Straight up.

[00:56:49] You know why?

[00:56:49] Because it's all the it's all the stuff that we just said about the battle system.

[00:56:54] Now apply it to a boss.

[00:56:56] Remember what we just said, folks, about you go up to a group of enemies, you press square until you win.

[00:57:01] Pretty much the same thing with bosses.

[00:57:04] Now you just mash on them until you win.

[00:57:06] Those aren't bosses.

[00:57:07] Those are just big enemies.

[00:57:09] Terrible.

[00:57:10] They're bad.

[00:57:11] They're straight up bad.

[00:57:13] They're not particularly exciting.

[00:57:16] And the biggest problem is that in the first like I for so much of the game, they're just copy pasted for previous mana games.

[00:57:25] It's like someone in a director boards like, hey, look at what we did in Secret of Mana and Childs of Mana and just bring them back on board.

[00:57:31] I'm like, there's no surprise to it.

[00:57:33] I think like when I was playing this, I seriously should have said, oh, it's that fucking guy again when I saw him in the distance.

[00:57:41] Yeah, you did.

[00:57:42] Yeah, you did.

[00:57:43] I was there.

[00:57:45] It's like, come on, man.

[00:57:47] Like, man, it should be about surprises to a degree.

[00:57:50] But these bosses ain't it.

[00:57:51] They are definitely not it.

[00:57:54] And it's like you.

[00:57:56] It's like you said, there's a bunch of callbacks.

[00:57:58] Why is Mantis and here from Secret of Mana?

[00:58:01] Just because it doesn't even make any sense.

[00:58:04] Why is he there?

[00:58:05] No, I don't even know.

[00:58:07] Why is Full Metal Hugger here?

[00:58:09] Why?

[00:58:10] Again, I'm sorry to do this again.

[00:58:13] Keep comparing the Trials of Mana from four years ago.

[00:58:15] Point is, the bosses were great because he added, OK, now we're in a 3D space.

[00:58:20] We're going to do all this MMO shit.

[00:58:22] Here's these zones where these rocks are going to fall.

[00:58:24] Here's these line attacks that you have to dodge.

[00:58:27] Better get out of the way.

[00:58:28] And they added other mechanics, too.

[00:58:30] Here are these three totems and the circle is coming out from the inside.

[00:58:35] Once it reaches the line, you're going to get fucked up.

[00:58:38] Right.

[00:58:39] So you better take down those totems or whatever the mechanic is for the boss.

[00:58:43] You don't have to do any of that in Vision's Mana.

[00:58:46] There's nothing like that.

[00:58:47] Literally just whomp on it till it dies.

[00:58:49] Guys, it's so boring.

[00:58:51] Those are not bosses.

[00:58:52] And the fact that they're bringing back bosses from Trials of Mana and bringing them back in a much, much shittier form.

[00:58:59] Like it's not just useless callbacks.

[00:59:02] They're bad.

[00:59:02] If you're going to bring them back, you have to do something spectacular with them.

[00:59:07] You have to do like some sort of spectacle.

[00:59:09] OK, we just did these.

[00:59:11] Now we're going to do them better than we ever have before.

[00:59:14] But this is a PS4 game.

[00:59:16] So we were not allowed to do that.

[00:59:17] We're not allowed to have nice things.

[00:59:19] So the models and going back to the visuals, the models of returning bosses are actually really cool.

[00:59:25] But again, just mechanically, like there's not much of a threat.

[00:59:28] Occasionally you'll have to like dodge the way of maybe like an AOE every so often.

[00:59:33] But it's like there's not much of a threat, right?

[00:59:38] There's not much of an impending sense of danger.

[00:59:41] And that just kind of sucks.

[00:59:44] And like it doesn't have to be like the super impactful, like threatening game.

[00:59:50] But just the fact that like, again, we're just saying like just mash square.

[00:59:55] It's a bit of a downer.

[00:59:57] And as a bit of an aside, actually, so the Mana series on social media actually posted the question, what is your favorite boss?

[01:00:08] And they showed a picture of the Kraken and it instantly shared it saying, of course they shared the Kraken because even they knew what they had in terms of what the best boss was.

[01:00:18] And yep, they totally knew.

[01:00:20] They can't go to any of those other ones because they're not cool.

[01:00:23] And that's the thing.

[01:00:24] I'm going to push back on you in that.

[01:00:26] I don't think they look cool.

[01:00:27] I think Full Metal Hugger looked way better than in trials.

[01:00:31] I do.

[01:00:32] I don't think it looked.

[01:00:34] I think any of the I'm not going to say any of the other ones right now, but I think they actually look better in trials because they're bigger and they're more imposing.

[01:00:42] That's what it is, though.

[01:00:44] These are more decorated, but they're less imposing.

[01:00:46] That's a great way to put it.

[01:00:47] Yeah.

[01:00:47] I think.

[01:00:48] And that's what a boss should be.

[01:00:49] And especially considering the original on SNES, Full Metal Hugger took up the entire goddamn screen and then saw.

[01:00:57] Oh, God.

[01:00:58] Yeah, dude.

[01:00:59] You have to make it that.

[01:01:00] And now it's just here's a crab.

[01:01:02] Okay.

[01:01:03] Whatever, man.

[01:01:04] It sucks.

[01:01:05] That was embarrassing.

[01:01:06] Here's a crab.

[01:01:08] Here's a crab.

[01:01:09] The crab formerly known as Full Metal Hugger, the coolest boss of Mana in history.

[01:01:13] And here's a crab.

[01:01:15] Full mini hugger, I guess.

[01:01:17] Because, like, look at it now, man.

[01:01:19] Womp, womp, womp, womp.

[01:01:21] Yeah.

[01:01:22] So we talked about the mechanics of the bosses not being nearly as good, right?

[01:01:26] But I guess I can pull back on that just very, very slightly.

[01:01:31] Because there is a couple of bosses in Visions of Mana that do have good mechanics.

[01:01:37] There's definitely one where it's tied to the arena.

[01:01:41] So you have to use something in the particular arena to inflict damage.

[01:01:45] And I thought that was a good, like, shakeout from the norm.

[01:01:49] There are other occasions where the game encourages you to use your elemental vessel to sort of, like, interact with the boss in a specific way.

[01:01:57] And I guess that's, like, a little different.

[01:01:59] Like, you don't have to do that kind of stuff.

[01:02:01] But, like, the boss in question has, like, a tongue that you can interact with.

[01:02:05] And that's kind of cool.

[01:02:06] Oh, I guess.

[01:02:07] I remember that.

[01:02:08] Okay.

[01:02:08] I guess that's something.

[01:02:11] Right?

[01:02:11] That is something.

[01:02:13] There's still not much of a threat, though.

[01:02:15] They don't really do anything to, like, inflict that much damage on you.

[01:02:19] Like, when I replayed Charles Remake recently, our best friend, Dolan, the moon furries we affectionately call him.

[01:02:29] He whooped my ass.

[01:02:30] I ain't game over to that guy, man.

[01:02:32] Like, it was rough.

[01:02:34] Because I'm like, oh, whoops, I didn't heal in time.

[01:02:37] But it's like, oh, man, dude.

[01:02:39] Like, it's just not enough threats here.

[01:02:42] Yeah.

[01:02:43] There was just the callbacks really annoyed me because, again, they just weren't really.

[01:02:47] Okay.

[01:02:47] You know what?

[01:02:48] I'm going to be honest here.

[01:02:49] I started taking bets with myself to see which boss would show up next.

[01:02:54] I fully expected to see Bill and Ben, and I did not see Bill and Ben.

[01:02:58] I actually did expect to see them.

[01:03:01] But I saw some twin golem thing.

[01:03:03] I was like, oh, it's like, oh, no, it's not them.

[01:03:05] God damn it.

[01:03:06] Close it up.

[01:03:10] I would not have been surprised if they showed up, man.

[01:03:12] Like, at this point, they're bringing back all sorts of random guys.

[01:03:16] Emphasis on the random, by the way.

[01:03:18] Oh, my God.

[01:03:19] Yeah.

[01:03:20] Yeah.

[01:03:21] Bosses are a huge disappointment in this game.

[01:03:24] Battle system and bosses.

[01:03:25] Guys, that's what you hang your hat on for an action RPG.

[01:03:29] And they're just not.

[01:03:31] Again, they're not terrible.

[01:03:34] I still, again, up front, I said I give this game a B minus.

[01:03:37] It doesn't completely ruin the game.

[01:03:38] It's still an above average game.

[01:03:41] But, man, just not what I wanted.

[01:03:57] Can we talk pacing real quick?

[01:03:59] Because pacing real quick.

[01:04:01] LOL.

[01:04:02] Jesus Christ.

[01:04:03] Did I do a thing?

[01:04:05] Oh.

[01:04:06] Oh, what?

[01:04:08] Pacing.

[01:04:09] Well, like, that's kind of like one of my big nitpicks, too.

[01:04:12] OK, then take it.

[01:04:13] Take it for me.

[01:04:14] The game spans way too many cut scenes.

[01:04:17] There are too many densely placed cut scenes.

[01:04:19] Even the same town will sometimes have back-to-back cut scenes in the span of, like, a few minutes.

[01:04:24] I'm like, this really drags everything down.

[01:04:26] Like, I just want to explore and fight, man.

[01:04:28] But I can't do that.

[01:04:30] Yeah.

[01:04:32] Wasn't there a Sakurai YouTube music video?

[01:04:35] Wasn't there a Sakurai?

[01:04:36] I'm going to leave that in because it's stupid.

[01:04:38] Sakurai music video.

[01:04:39] Wow.

[01:04:39] What the hell was on my brain today?

[01:04:41] Wasn't there a Sakurai video recently where he talked about this?

[01:04:46] He's like, let the players play the game right away.

[01:04:49] Let them do something.

[01:04:50] He actually had a video about this.

[01:04:53] It's like, if you keep interrupting, if you don't let them do anything, they're going to get bored.

[01:04:56] That Vision's a man.

[01:04:57] I didn't watch that video because I tell you what.

[01:05:00] Walk three steps.

[01:05:02] Here's another scene.

[01:05:02] Walk three steps.

[01:05:03] Here's another scene.

[01:05:04] And the problem is, it's a pacing.

[01:05:06] It's not that I don't want to see these scenes or that they're boring or that they're crappy.

[01:05:09] It's just that presenting them this way makes them suck.

[01:05:14] Because you could have consolidated or maybe some of them just could have been dialogue.

[01:05:19] But no, we have to do the whole fade to black and do another cut scene.

[01:05:23] It's like, oh, God.

[01:05:24] It kind of dreaded that kind of stuff.

[01:05:26] I mean, look, what they say is fine enough.

[01:05:28] But it's just, I think there's just, it almost feels like somebody didn't really thoroughly play test this.

[01:05:35] Because, I mean, this pace is just broken up compared to previous mana games.

[01:05:40] Previous mana games don't get interrupted this much.

[01:05:42] They really don't.

[01:05:43] They really don't.

[01:05:45] I just, yeah, the pacing is kind of wonky.

[01:05:48] I guess you had a big problem with the beginning of the game.

[01:05:50] Usually, that's where I'm willing to cut the game some slack.

[01:05:54] Right?

[01:05:55] And it wasn't, I'm not saying it wasn't annoying.

[01:05:57] But I'm like, okay, I'll give it some leash for this stuff.

[01:06:00] But you were really annoyed.

[01:06:02] You were much more annoyed than me.

[01:06:03] Yeah, the first hour is just such a downer, man.

[01:06:06] It's just like, I don't think, I understand you need to have some sort of exposition and setup.

[01:06:10] But at the same time, it's just, this was just way too much.

[01:06:14] It's like, the three-step thing is the most relevant, like, detracting factor.

[01:06:19] It's just like, I just don't feel like I get to really, like, go places as much.

[01:06:25] Because I gotta listen to these guys talk.

[01:06:27] Yeah.

[01:06:28] I just, it's enough sometimes.

[01:06:30] I think the game just doesn't have a good sense of when to let you play.

[01:06:35] You know?

[01:06:35] And they don't, they don't always nail that.

[01:06:39] But yeah.

[01:06:40] They don't.

[01:06:40] Pacing, pacing kind of a problem.

[01:06:42] I wouldn't say necessarily a problem for the entire game.

[01:06:44] Just in spots.

[01:06:46] You know?

[01:06:46] There's definitely pockets where it's a bit more egregious than others.

[01:06:50] Yeah.

[01:06:51] And something that was slightly egregious to me, perhaps not as annoying, was just the way you acquire elementals.

[01:06:57] Which generally is supposed to make you feel pretty badass.

[01:06:59] But in this game, they just kind of drop it on your lap.

[01:07:02] It's like, oh, you got this now.

[01:07:03] And I'm like, why?

[01:07:05] Hey, by the way, here's this.

[01:07:07] Like, okay.

[01:07:09] I guess.

[01:07:10] It just exists.

[01:07:11] It makes everything just exist.

[01:07:13] And it doesn't feel good.

[01:07:14] I would have rather they done the Zelda thing where you go to eight dungeons and get eight elementals.

[01:07:19] Because there is more than eight dungeons in the game.

[01:07:21] I think they could have just done it that way.

[01:07:24] Yeah.

[01:07:24] I know that's kind of cliche.

[01:07:26] But honestly, I think I would have preferred that.

[01:07:28] Particularly just because, like, when you actually acquire stuff, it's not very momentous.

[01:07:34] It just sort of, it feels happenstance, right?

[01:07:37] And that's just, that doesn't, compared to, like, previous games where it's, like, actually acquiring elementals like an occasion.

[01:07:43] This just feels false flat.

[01:07:48] Let's talk music.

[01:07:51] I don't have a whole lot to say about it, which is probably why it's in the bad section of the podcast.

[01:07:59] So I guess I'll just start here.

[01:08:02] I was surprised to see Hiroki Kikuta's name in the opening credits.

[01:08:06] But for those who don't know, he's a legendary composer behind Secret of Mana and Trials of Mana.

[01:08:11] So I was like, huh, okay, maybe they got him to do a song or two just so they have the prestige of having his name.

[01:08:17] Who knows what he did to what extent?

[01:08:19] But I'll just flatly say it.

[01:08:21] Vincers of Mana simply does not live up to series expectations as far as music goes.

[01:08:26] It doesn't.

[01:08:27] And here's the funny thing.

[01:08:28] This series is known for its music.

[01:08:30] Like, Secret of Mana and Trials music is some of the best music in video games, period.

[01:08:35] But, like, I suppose Hiroki Kikuta's, like, work might have been analogous to perhaps, like, Yuzo Koshiro's on, like, Streets of Rage 4, maybe?

[01:08:46] But here's the damning part.

[01:08:48] I have no idea which songs he worked on in this game.

[01:08:52] You couldn't even tell.

[01:08:54] That trademark percussion that's usually the dead giveaway, it wasn't here.

[01:08:58] Oh, no, we don't get any of that.

[01:09:00] We don't get any of that.

[01:09:01] Here's the thing.

[01:09:02] Even when you're standing someone like Yuzo up to great composers in their own right, like Michiru Yamane, who does Castlevania games, right?

[01:09:12] Yuzo pitched in on Portrait of Ruin.

[01:09:14] And you can tell when it's a Yuzo song, okay?

[01:09:18] Like, and that's no slight to Yamane.

[01:09:20] It's not that his songs are way better than hers or something.

[01:09:23] It's just that, like, they have a distinct thing.

[01:09:26] It's like, oh, that's them.

[01:09:28] Right?

[01:09:29] I didn't confuse any of their tracks with each other.

[01:09:32] So the fact that we're listening to Visions and we're like, which ones are his?

[01:09:39] We don't even know.

[01:09:40] That's a problem.

[01:09:41] How many times have you cracked jokes about Invitation of a Crazed Moon and Portrait of Ruin, right?

[01:09:46] It's so jamming.

[01:09:49] There's nobody else who could even make that, right?

[01:09:52] And that's great.

[01:09:54] Visions of Mana does not have that with Kiku Dismusic to the extent that he worked on it, of which we don't know.

[01:10:01] But would you say it's even fair to compare to other mana games?

[01:10:06] Like, are we being unfair by being like, oh, this isn't as good as this or that?

[01:10:11] Or do you think we're not taking it on its own accord?

[01:10:13] Or is it fair to compare?

[01:10:15] I think it's fair to compare them, especially since the vast majority of the games in this series.

[01:10:19] They at least have the music.

[01:10:22] Maybe the mechanics are busted.

[01:10:24] But I would say even Dawn of Mana has some memorable tracks.

[01:10:27] Even Children of Mana and Heroes of Mana has some pretty decent tracks.

[01:10:31] So if those games could do it, why can't this game do it?

[01:10:34] Maybe assuming it would get up to the lofty standard of Secret of Mana and Childs of Mana is too much.

[01:10:40] But at least beat those middle games.

[01:10:43] At least beat those other rando side games out, right?

[01:10:45] But it can't even do that.

[01:10:47] It sure doesn't.

[01:10:48] It can't do it.

[01:10:49] I also think it's fair to compare to Trials of Mana or anything else because the Mana series has a high bar.

[01:10:56] And Visions doesn't meet it.

[01:10:58] I feel like we should say so.

[01:11:00] The music in Final Fantasy XII isn't that good.

[01:11:03] And everyone said so.

[01:11:04] Oh, God.

[01:11:05] Right?

[01:11:05] I don't think it's bad.

[01:11:07] I don't think.

[01:11:08] Okay, see, that's the thing.

[01:11:09] I don't think it's nearly as bad as other people think it is, even though I think that game sucks overall.

[01:11:14] But, like, yeah, it's not as good.

[01:11:16] And you can tell.

[01:11:16] It's okay.

[01:11:17] We can say it.

[01:11:19] It's Mana is one of those series where it matters.

[01:11:21] If Mega Man music is just okay, we say so.

[01:11:24] Final Fantasy music, you say so.

[01:11:26] That's the standard for Mana, and it has to be met.

[01:11:29] And it was not.

[01:11:42] I feel like that's just about all the stuff we want to bitch about.

[01:11:45] So there's some really great stuff about this game, as you heard up front.

[01:11:49] There's some really not so great stuff about this game.

[01:11:52] Yeah.

[01:11:53] But do you have anything else that you want to talk about before we conclude?

[01:11:56] Just any little tidbits?

[01:11:58] Because one thing I want to mention that I thought was knowing that save points are hard to see most of the time.

[01:12:03] Yeah.

[01:12:04] Like, they're like this really.

[01:12:05] Yeah.

[01:12:05] They're like this very transparent white column of light.

[01:12:08] And it's like, I'm not really seeing it.

[01:12:12] You know?

[01:12:12] Because, like, usually if I'm running through an adventure field, LOL, and I haven't had a save point for a while, I usually backtrack because I know I missed something.

[01:12:20] I know I did.

[01:12:21] But you have a feeling of when one would have appeared.

[01:12:25] But here, they're like sparkles.

[01:12:27] But when you actually interact with them, they turn into a tree, which is kind of a cute motif.

[01:12:31] But if they're just sparkles from a distance, it's like, it's nowhere near as impactful as a giant mana goddess statue chilling right there.

[01:12:41] When you see those mana goddess statues in, like, Charles Super Nintendo, like, you're, you're, you're, like, pretty much offering up a prayer because you need those statues, man, because everything whoops you out.

[01:12:52] Oh, thank you.

[01:12:53] Yeah.

[01:12:53] Think about that.

[01:12:54] Oh, thank fuck.

[01:12:55] You know what I mean?

[01:12:56] I found a statue where I found a statue.

[01:12:58] No, no, no such luck here.

[01:13:00] Why were there random?

[01:13:01] I guess.

[01:13:02] Why were there random packs of level 52 enemies just around?

[01:13:07] I have no idea.

[01:13:08] Did you ever?

[01:13:09] Well, I sure as hell didn't.

[01:13:10] Did you go back and even explore any of those areas?

[01:13:13] Because I didn't once I got up to level.

[01:13:16] No, I never went back.

[01:13:18] Yeah.

[01:13:19] Because all the, again, the loot in this game isn't very exciting.

[01:13:22] So it's like, I mean, I loved exploring around and looking for treasure chests.

[01:13:25] But like, you know, I like the act of finding chest more than the loot itself.

[01:13:30] I guess you get a lot of Lucra sometimes, but the actual ability seeds.

[01:13:34] Oh, that's like, okay, sure, whatever.

[01:13:36] But that's not the only loot that sucks.

[01:13:38] The sub quest loot sucks.

[01:13:40] It is so terrible.

[01:13:43] Really bad.

[01:13:44] It's like, here's some Lucra.

[01:13:45] Oh, here's an ability.

[01:13:46] See that may or may not be relevant.

[01:13:48] I didn't even bother doing most of these because of it.

[01:13:51] I'm like, cause you can see the rewards.

[01:13:52] It's like, why would I ever need that?

[01:13:54] That like sucks, bro.

[01:13:55] You stopped real early.

[01:13:57] Yeah.

[01:13:57] I wasn't, I wasn't with it.

[01:13:59] I stopped early, early too.

[01:14:01] And you know, another thing.

[01:14:03] So many of these quests devolve into like one of two categories, either like talk to a specific NPC or defeat five of the same thing.

[01:14:10] So there was like, there was a point in the game where it was like, oh, are they going to be kill five of some such?

[01:14:15] Yeah.

[01:14:16] Yeah.

[01:14:16] You're going to have to kill five of that thing.

[01:14:18] It's like, it's so dull.

[01:14:20] Like, I mean, geez, like these make final fantasy 16 sub quests, like look like a Shakespeare or something.

[01:14:25] And that game is quest.

[01:14:26] Some quests are just like, okay, but you know what?

[01:14:28] One of the best changes.

[01:14:29] I'm pretty sure this changed in Xenoblade Definitive Edition.

[01:14:33] I think the other versions of the game are not like this, but I think you get a lot of like fetch questy stuff like in those games.

[01:14:41] But when you complete them, they're done.

[01:14:44] So you go out in the field and you kill five, whatever it's done.

[01:14:47] It's turned in.

[01:14:48] You beat the quest.

[01:14:49] You don't have to go back to anybody and turn it in.

[01:14:52] It's over.

[01:14:53] When you collect, when you collect 10, whatever it's done.

[01:14:55] You got it.

[01:14:57] That makes too much sense.

[01:14:59] And it's so great to do that.

[01:15:01] That's one thing they could have taken from Xenoblade because, but also in Xenoblade, the rewards are worth it.

[01:15:05] You get hella money.

[01:15:06] You get hella experience too for doing those quests.

[01:15:09] You don't get shit in this game.

[01:15:11] So yeah.

[01:15:12] And speaking of Final Fantasy 16, they patched in the ability to fast travel to the quest like NPCs.

[01:15:19] So you just turn it in like a split because they have to do that presumably so that they can do their dialogue sequence or like whatever the heck.

[01:15:25] Right.

[01:15:25] So sure.

[01:15:25] You have to warp over there.

[01:15:27] That makes sense in the context of that game.

[01:15:29] But this game.

[01:15:30] Yeah.

[01:15:31] Like I killed the five things.

[01:15:33] It's like, okay.

[01:15:34] It's like, sure, I guess.

[01:15:36] And I got my Lucra.

[01:15:37] Like, thanks.

[01:15:38] I guess I'll buy a weapon that I definitely need.

[01:15:42] Sure.

[01:15:43] Sure.

[01:15:43] I guess so.

[01:15:46] Um, I think that's all the, oh, I hated the fact that you couldn't air dash or double jump in town.

[01:15:51] Like, why are you taking the movement options away from me?

[01:15:55] The fun stuff.

[01:15:56] Like, let me just do that.

[01:15:57] What reason would it, would they have for taking that away?

[01:16:01] Why?

[01:16:01] It, there's none because there's stuff that you can find in town that's like up above on ledges, but you can't double jump.

[01:16:07] So you got to take the long way around or whatever.

[01:16:09] And speaking of stuff that you can't do in towns, this blew me up.

[01:16:13] You can't change party members in town for some reason.

[01:16:16] Oh yeah.

[01:16:17] Like you have to do it outside of town.

[01:16:19] Like why?

[01:16:19] I don't know why.

[01:16:21] It's like, it doesn't make any sense.

[01:16:22] Another thing I don't know why, um, that will set up that way is the fast travel system in general.

[01:16:28] Like you, you, you are weirdly set up.

[01:16:33] You are weirdly confined by the area that you're in so that if you want to go to specific areas, you got a leapfrog.

[01:16:38] You can't just like pan out and like fast travel to like an area of a different region.

[01:16:43] You got to do it one step at a time.

[01:16:45] It's like, why?

[01:16:46] That's like awkward.

[01:16:47] It doesn't make any sense.

[01:16:48] It's, it's really weird.

[01:16:50] I don't understand.

[01:16:50] I feel like the, the party in town thing must be an oversight.

[01:16:55] Cause remember I was thinking like, maybe cause you're in a quote unquote story moment that you can't do it or whatever.

[01:16:59] But I was like, no, it's just when you're in town in general, which is insane because you're equipping stuff and you're like, how can you not set up whatever, man?

[01:17:08] Dumb.

[01:17:10] Again, though, conclusion, this game is a B minus.

[01:17:13] I know that we've bitched a lot here, right?

[01:17:17] But despite everything we said, there's so much good stuff about this game.

[01:17:21] As you can tell, it's a game of heavy pros and cons.

[01:17:23] It's just a matter of how much those cons will bother you.

[01:17:26] And for me, they didn't drag it down enough to the point where I couldn't recommend it to everybody.

[01:17:30] And that's the important thing.

[01:17:31] If someone were to ask me if they should play visions of mana, I would just say, yes.

[01:17:36] I don't have to say, yeah, but no, yes, go ahead.

[01:17:40] Especially if you're like mana games.

[01:17:41] Yes.

[01:17:42] Recommended.

[01:17:42] Now, do they want to pay $60 for it?

[01:17:45] I don't know, but I can, I can recommend visions of mana without hesitation.

[01:17:49] And that's the first time I've been able to do that in 30 years.

[01:17:52] So I'm going to start recommending Donna mana to everyone out there when that remaster comes out on PS.

[01:17:59] I'm just kidding.

[01:18:00] If they remaster that fucking game before.

[01:18:03] Oh my God, that would be the worst.

[01:18:05] Whatever.

[01:18:06] Anyway, if you're looking at visions of man, you're remotely curious about it.

[01:18:11] You're going to get some mileage out of it.

[01:18:12] You're going to find something to enjoy, whether it's the visual craftsmanship or whether it's a sense of exploration, but just don't expect this to be a balanced or consistent experience whatsoever.

[01:18:24] But then again, like sort of the mana paradigm is that so many mana games have a severe sort of inconsistent quality, like the mechanics and the balance of mechanics in like the audio visual craftsmanship are out of whack.

[01:18:38] And so many of these games really trials, Super Nintendo and Remaster.

[01:18:42] Remake and Secret Super Nintendo, they get that balance like relatively right.

[01:18:46] But in so many of these other games, like they're just not the most fun to play.

[01:18:51] But and unfortunately, visions of mana continues that sort of trend.

[01:18:55] But then again, despite the fact that I can't like transcend that, it's still a good time.

[01:19:00] It really is.

[01:19:01] This is actually a good time.

[01:19:02] All the other shits from the 2000s, I could never recommend to anybody.

[01:19:07] Like no way.

[01:19:08] And again, I haven't played Adventures of Mana, but look at it like, please.

[01:19:11] So it looks like I like it so much.

[01:19:17] I would never in my life recommend anyone play a game that looks like that.

[01:19:21] I'm sorry.

[01:19:22] Like no way.

[01:19:23] But yeah, that's visions of mana.

[01:19:25] If that's we can hardly recommend maybe not hardly.

[01:19:29] That's a strong term.

[01:19:31] We can definitely recommend it.

[01:19:34] There are you'll just have to take the good with the bad.

[01:19:37] And I think the good is worth it.

[01:19:39] So here we are.

[01:19:40] We're at the spoiler wall.

[01:19:41] We're at the dead eclipse spoiler wall.

[01:19:44] So we're about to climb it.

[01:19:46] So if that was all you wanted to hear and you don't want to hear spoilers for visions of mana, this is the end of the show for you.

[01:19:52] We'll catch you next time on fine time.

[01:19:53] However, if you want to hear us dig deeper into some story elements and other stuff about the game, we will do so after this break.

[01:20:01] Fine time for our broadcasting worldwide.

[01:20:32] Okay.

[01:20:33] We're in the spoiler.

[01:20:35] Well, I was going to say we're in the spoiler wall, but we can't be in the wall.

[01:20:38] We'd be dead.

[01:20:39] We are over the spoiler wall.

[01:20:41] How about that?

[01:20:42] We're in the sanctuary of mana.

[01:20:43] Okay.

[01:20:44] Let's start with the biggest one.

[01:20:47] Okay.

[01:20:48] I think Hina's death is actually really, really bold because it's essentially a bait and switch on the player.

[01:20:56] The game was sold on Val and Hina going on this journey.

[01:21:00] Here are your male and female protagonists.

[01:21:03] Oops.

[01:21:03] She's gone after eight hours.

[01:21:05] She's dead.

[01:21:07] Okay.

[01:21:09] Games don't really do that.

[01:21:10] I think that's just on the surface.

[01:21:13] I think that's pretty daring.

[01:21:14] If you ask me, it's extremely daring by any measure, but particularly by mana series games in the sense that like so many of these games like have the female protagonist turned into like the tree or like whatever.

[01:21:29] And that's at the end of the game.

[01:21:30] No, this happens in the middle.

[01:21:31] It's just a thing that happens.

[01:21:33] I like you were kept on your toes.

[01:21:35] Like, is this going to happen to her as they go along with like this weirdly conceived plan?

[01:21:40] But she has all of these monologues leading up to this point.

[01:21:43] So I was like, man, it's so consistently delivered that she talks about the places they go to.

[01:21:49] Now she's gone.

[01:21:50] They don't do no more monologues.

[01:21:51] Yeah.

[01:21:51] No more monologues.

[01:21:52] The rest.

[01:21:53] Yeah.

[01:21:53] Yeah.

[01:21:54] More.

[01:21:54] Yeah.

[01:21:54] Less than halfway through the game.

[01:21:57] That's crazy.

[01:21:57] They're gone.

[01:21:58] If they did that, do this forever.

[01:22:00] Yeah.

[01:22:00] If they did, if they did that near the back of the game.

[01:22:02] Okay.

[01:22:03] I might like understand it more, but like this was very shocking to me.

[01:22:09] And okay.

[01:22:10] Here's my big brain theory.

[01:22:12] Here's what I thought was going to happen.

[01:22:13] Okay.

[01:22:14] I thought the fairy was going to be like a fake or whatever, and actually some vessel for some ancient big bad or whatever.

[01:22:21] That's getting off on all these like souls that are going to the mandatory, but really it's like this, this evil, whatever.

[01:22:27] I figured that was happening because all of this just felt so convenient to me.

[01:22:31] Oh, this is how the world works and all the, oh, we need the souls of whatever you give your soul.

[01:22:36] That's how they always said it.

[01:22:37] Give your soul to the mandatory soul.

[01:22:42] So I just figured Val would, they would all get sacrificed.

[01:22:45] Val would find out it's an evil person doing it.

[01:22:47] And then he'd bring them back because anime reasons or whatever, but that's not really how it happened.

[01:22:51] So, but the fact that even came up with that potential theory, like that speaks to the sort of like narrative intrigue on its own.

[01:22:59] Right.

[01:22:59] And so many mana games follow the same paradigm.

[01:23:03] Heck like trials of mana.

[01:23:05] Isn't really a game.

[01:23:06] We remember for its plot as much as we love that game.

[01:23:09] Right.

[01:23:09] So, I mean, this, this, this had so many implications for the rest of the plot.

[01:23:14] It was just so cool.

[01:23:15] I just couldn't believe it.

[01:23:16] I just, I really couldn't.

[01:23:19] Yeah.

[01:23:20] While I generally enjoy the story in this game and the world of it, I had a real hard time reconciling a few things, particularly like people's attitudes towards this cycle of sacrifice that they just accept so willingly.

[01:23:37] You know?

[01:23:38] Yeah.

[01:23:38] So, and the big example for me is that after you beat the last Benevedon, I guess more on that later if we want to, the Benevedons are back.

[01:23:45] Um, where you do that, you go talk to Hina's parents to tell her that she died.

[01:23:52] This makes almost no sense because the cult of the mana tree sacrifices means that they pretty much already accepted their daughter's fate.

[01:24:02] You know, her being dead.

[01:24:04] She's going to go to this tree and she's going to die.

[01:24:06] Why would they be upset now if she died along the way?

[01:24:10] Either way, you were never going to see her again.

[01:24:12] So what, what the hell's the difference?

[01:24:14] Why have this big dramatic scene of Hina or if Hina of Val going to them and being all sorry that she couldn't protect her.

[01:24:22] So what?

[01:24:23] If she's, if she's dying, she's dying.

[01:24:25] Um, yeah.

[01:24:26] And also her mother, Hina's mother starts telling us like how she wanted to be with them forever.

[01:24:33] And, uh, you don't know what you miss until it's gone.

[01:24:37] And it's like, lady, this is your goddamn daughter.

[01:24:40] You're talking about like not your favorite book.

[01:24:44] Like, why were you so happy to see her off to the mana tree in the first place?

[01:24:47] Then they're like, did anybody think about this beforehand?

[01:24:51] The answer's no, I guess.

[01:24:53] Like, I guess definitely no.

[01:24:55] The answer's definitely no.

[01:24:56] I guess all I'm trying to say is this culture of death is really nonsensical sometimes to the point where like scenes like this can have no impact because they don't make any logistical sense.

[01:25:05] There's no logistical sense because you have to accept the inevitability of death.

[01:25:10] But certain characters, namely Val, apparently don't accept this inevitability because when, um, homeboy Oran does his thing, like Val didn't think about the process thereof, right?

[01:25:23] So like that process has its own sort of like crazy, like solution.

[01:25:27] And like he gets turned into a Corso and all his business or whatever.

[01:25:31] Right.

[01:25:31] But he didn't think about any of the implications thereof because chances are Val would have had the same breakdown even if they did complete the pilgrimage.

[01:25:39] Right.

[01:25:40] So it's like, he still, he has to, he has to come to terms with their death.

[01:25:45] Eventually it just came sooner than he expected it.

[01:25:48] Right.

[01:25:49] And it's just like, he evidently didn't think about it because he was so like gung ho about doing their duty and stuff.

[01:25:54] But yeah, that was weird, man.

[01:25:57] That was really weird.

[01:25:58] I just didn't, I just didn't understand any of that.

[01:26:00] That just, that part of the game had no gravitas to me.

[01:26:05] Right.

[01:26:06] So, and okay, maybe this is just me being a moron.

[01:26:09] Okay.

[01:26:09] And I, cause I really didn't understand this when Oran did the thing, he turns Hina into a core stone.

[01:26:14] Right.

[01:26:15] So she's essentially dead.

[01:26:16] I didn't really understand what was going on.

[01:26:20] So like, does the core stone mean she is dead?

[01:26:23] Because they were kind of talking about, oh, I'm going to get her core stone and I'll, she didn't say like, bring her back to life.

[01:26:29] But like, you know what I mean?

[01:26:31] Like, and then homeboy, Dale of force, like absorbs her core stone later without any, without any preamble.

[01:26:38] So it's like, okay, do you have to kill him to get her course down now?

[01:26:41] Or like, does any of this matter?

[01:26:43] And it turns out nothing of this matters because later on in the game, you find out, oh, when someone turns to the core stone, they can't come back.

[01:26:49] That means they're passed on or whatever.

[01:26:51] It's like, okay, now you tell me, but okay.

[01:26:53] I guess what I'm trying to say is the game made it sound like you could bring her back.

[01:26:57] Am I being stupid or not?

[01:27:00] Well, you're not being stupid because over and over again, the prime motivation is to get her core stone back.

[01:27:06] I don't know exactly what they're planning on doing with it, but they say over and over and over again, we got to get that stone back, which sort of creates the implication that you can bring somebody back to life.

[01:27:16] But they don't go out and say that, of course, but it's like, what are you going to do?

[01:27:20] Plug this around until you're like, can fulfill your pilgrimage?

[01:27:23] It's like, oh, I'm going to like offer this up.

[01:27:25] It's like just the whole crystallization thing was like this false sense of intrigue.

[01:27:30] It's like, why can you do this?

[01:27:31] I don't know for most of the run.

[01:27:34] And then they just kind of like drop that randomly at the end of the game.

[01:27:37] It's like, oh, yeah, by the way, you could do that's why you do it.

[01:27:39] Yeah.

[01:27:40] Okay.

[01:27:40] It's like, okay.

[01:27:41] Yeah.

[01:27:41] So, okay.

[01:27:42] I'm glad I'm not a total idiot because I was thinking like, oh, we're going to again, anime recents.

[01:27:46] Oh, we can get her core stone and do the reverse ritual and bring her back to life or whatever.

[01:27:52] Like, I don't fucking know.

[01:27:53] Right.

[01:27:54] Like didn't say.

[01:27:55] Yeah.

[01:27:56] So I was just confused.

[01:27:57] Didn't say.

[01:27:58] I was just confused.

[01:28:00] But Orin as a character, I think is interesting.

[01:28:03] He's relatable.

[01:28:04] Right.

[01:28:04] And I think his motivations do make sense to a degree.

[01:28:10] I don't know exactly what he was planning on doing with the mana sword, but like he has this plan in his head.

[01:28:16] He's like, I'm going to get it.

[01:28:17] I'm going to get it and change everyone's destiny.

[01:28:19] But literally everybody in every single mana game doesn't know how to use the goddamn thing.

[01:28:24] Yeah.

[01:28:25] Nobody knows what they're doing.

[01:28:28] Oh, did you like?

[01:28:30] I don't know what else I'm going to say.

[01:28:31] So I'm just going to say now.

[01:28:32] Did you like the hella convenient part where like homeboy villain has a mana sword, then he breaks it.

[01:28:38] Right.

[01:28:38] And then Val just holds it up and then it just repairs itself magically.

[01:28:41] It's like, oh, it's good now.

[01:28:43] Oh, it's just, you know, now it's a mana sword.

[01:28:45] It's like, what the fuck, man?

[01:28:47] Like, what do you.

[01:28:49] I mean, Charles of Mana is like end sequence does say like what the sort of mana in our hearts will never fade or whatever.

[01:28:57] So like at that point, like, what the fuck?

[01:28:59] Whatever.

[01:29:00] What the fuck is a mana sword?

[01:29:01] They chose a weird part to do anime reasons, I guess.

[01:29:04] It's just it was just so weird.

[01:29:08] But yeah, I don't know.

[01:29:09] I really liked Oregon as a character.

[01:29:10] I love that they started the game that way because I felt like that gave it the right tenor.

[01:29:14] Right.

[01:29:15] So, yeah, because I think otherwise there would be it would be too much to accept that everyone else is just accepting this cycle of death, you know?

[01:29:24] So to start the game with people going against that, I think was pretty smart.

[01:29:29] Except for the part where he's like the one guy that actually thought about this shit.

[01:29:32] Yeah.

[01:29:33] But it is good, though.

[01:29:37] So here's something that never really sat right with me.

[01:29:41] So it was assumed that a turn.

[01:29:44] A turn.

[01:29:45] I can't say it like a turn.

[01:29:48] A turn was destroyed because they didn't send an alm to the mana tree.

[01:29:52] But after all the events there in a turn where they saw Morley like broke the hourglass of time or whatever it's called.

[01:30:02] I don't know.

[01:30:02] And everyone got trapped in the time paradox.

[01:30:06] How do we know that he broke it?

[01:30:08] Yes, he was climbing on it, but it looked kind of like it just exploded on its own.

[01:30:13] He's a little tight at that point.

[01:30:15] Like, how could he just break this monstrosity?

[01:30:17] Of course, it turns out for that have not to have been the case.

[01:30:20] He didn't break it.

[01:30:21] Something else happened, which I don't want to get into.

[01:30:24] It's just not important.

[01:30:25] Point is, not from the beginning.

[01:30:27] Did you ever think that he broke it?

[01:30:28] Because that never made any sense.

[01:30:30] I never thought it made any sense.

[01:30:32] I mean, like it moved coincidentally, but like he's so light.

[01:30:37] Like how in the world would like such a momentous thing be affected by a tyke, right?

[01:30:42] That doesn't make any sense.

[01:30:44] No.

[01:30:44] And like if it's such an important artifact, why would it be so easily like destroyed?

[01:30:49] It's like very bizarrely told.

[01:30:51] And like that whole section of the game seemed a little like I definitely appreciate Morley as a character.

[01:30:57] But that part of his backstory, I was just like, I don't think it's you, dude.

[01:31:02] It was just too goddamn convenient.

[01:31:05] You know, it was just like, wait, I didn't buy it.

[01:31:07] And of course, like large structures don't spontaneously explode when you climb on them.

[01:31:11] You know, like that's just not how life works.

[01:31:15] But he spun the hourglass.

[01:31:16] And when you spin hourglasses, the sands of time will like change.

[01:31:21] Excuse me.

[01:31:21] The hourglass of time.

[01:31:23] Okay.

[01:31:24] I already said.

[01:31:27] That's his canonical name now.

[01:31:29] Yeah, pretty much.

[01:31:31] Speaking of something that's a little too convenient.

[01:31:33] I actually kind of chuckled when Al.

[01:31:35] Al.

[01:31:37] I like it.

[01:31:38] Al.

[01:31:40] I joked when Al was named the arm of light, which kind of sort of felt extremely convenient.

[01:31:45] That whole buildup makes you guess.

[01:31:47] It's like, is it going to be someone in the theater?

[01:31:49] Or is it going to be this whole ritual thing?

[01:31:51] It's like Nancy.

[01:31:51] And I'm like, well, I was like thinking of retrospect, who the hell could have possibly

[01:31:56] named this?

[01:31:57] And well, it's like, did it not have anyone else to like, not anyone dressed, anyone dressed

[01:32:04] fancily enough to be named that?

[01:32:05] It's like, okay, I guess.

[01:32:08] But yeah, it's, it's a weird one.

[01:32:12] Like, okay.

[01:32:13] I didn't necessarily see it coming, but I didn't mind it.

[01:32:16] Yeah.

[01:32:16] It's, it's convenient.

[01:32:17] It's convenient as hell, but whatever.

[01:32:19] It's, it made the game more interesting.

[01:32:21] So I'll take it.

[01:32:24] It ultimately is fine, particularly because he leaned into the whole angle of like, well,

[01:32:28] he's a soul guard, but he's also the arm of light.

[01:32:30] He's both at the same time.

[01:32:32] It's so interesting.

[01:32:33] So like that, that, that aspect of it was kind of cool.

[01:32:36] Even they sort of forced it, but I appreciate it.

[01:32:39] Even if it was a bit convenient.

[01:32:43] Um, I guess I should say this before we get too far down the road away, away from

[01:32:47] Oren is that I thought it was weird that, uh, Dalaphos just kills Oren and also kills

[01:32:54] Liza.

[01:32:54] He does this big slash through both of them.

[01:32:56] Remember Liza is a stone statue, but they both become core stones that how that how, oh

[01:33:02] my God, you said Al.

[01:33:03] And I said, how we cannot get this guy's name, right?

[01:33:06] How laboratory, um, Val laboratory eventually collects their core stones.

[01:33:12] But it's like, that was weird.

[01:33:17] I don't, I don't know.

[01:33:19] Like that didn't, I didn't think she could quote unquote die as a stone statue.

[01:33:25] Well, basically that means somebody should have brought a gold needle from final fantasy and

[01:33:29] just like jabbed her with it.

[01:33:31] Yeah.

[01:33:31] That's how it works.

[01:33:32] Why can't they use a Phoenix down?

[01:33:33] Why you like them?

[01:33:34] Stupid people say that.

[01:33:35] Yeah.

[01:33:36] It's like, come on, please.

[01:33:38] Why couldn't you revive earth with a Phoenix down?

[01:33:40] Yeah.

[01:33:41] Shut up.

[01:33:42] Um, yeah.

[01:33:43] But yeah, I thought that was, I thought that was strange.

[01:33:45] It was very unceremonious.

[01:33:46] It's like, okay, I guess they're dead now.

[01:33:50] Whatever.

[01:33:50] That, the whole buildup was very strange to me because the implications that Oren chased

[01:33:55] them all the way to the earth village, like he told him the entire way somehow and somehow

[01:34:00] thought he could put up a fight despite presumably getting his ass whooped in like the, the man,

[01:34:05] um, the woods.

[01:34:06] So like, I don't know why he tried.

[01:34:08] It is kind of weird.

[01:34:10] Uh, it was, it was strange.

[01:34:12] I guess De La Fos is an interesting enough villain more.

[01:34:15] I would say he's more interesting than most mana villains who are just kind of nothing.

[01:34:19] Here is a dark night.

[01:34:21] Ooh, right.

[01:34:22] Here is a weird wizard or something like, you know, whatever.

[01:34:25] I guess it does.

[01:34:26] Again, it doesn't matter.

[01:34:27] It doesn't ruin those games.

[01:34:28] You don't need good villains in mana games, but I guess this was a good one.

[01:34:31] Most mana villains are forces of nature that just want to take mana for themselves and

[01:34:36] become a God or like whatever.

[01:34:38] Right.

[01:34:38] Or they want to take over.

[01:34:39] They want to bring the underworld back to life.

[01:34:41] Oh yeah.

[01:34:41] Some grandiose reason that the, the fallen ain't the fallen angel.

[01:34:45] The fallen hero angle is actually really fascinating to me because it creates this contrast.

[01:34:50] Like he, he, he was a really like baller dude in legend, but the reality was a bit different.

[01:34:58] So that contrast is interesting.

[01:34:59] The only part that kind of got on me a little bit was that his motivation seemed a little

[01:35:04] too like, um, a little too sudden.

[01:35:07] Cause like his beloved, like eats it.

[01:35:10] And then all of a sudden he becomes like this super maniacal, like guy that can somehow

[01:35:16] channel the powers of darkness for some reason, just because his beloved, like he, he cursed

[01:35:20] the land to remember.

[01:35:22] He cursed the land.

[01:35:23] That's why all these, that's why all these natural disasters have without the sacrifice.

[01:35:28] Cause they have those cursed the land, whatever the fuck that means.

[01:35:31] So yeah, he can make volcanoes erupt because he's pissed off about his beloved dying.

[01:35:36] It's like, that makes perfect sense.

[01:35:38] I mean, I guess it's, I mean, it's as good as a RPG villain reason as any, but I mean,

[01:35:44] I don't know.

[01:35:46] I like the dude a lot.

[01:35:47] He's also hella pretty.

[01:35:48] I wasn't expecting that part.

[01:35:49] He's beautiful.

[01:35:50] He is a beautiful man.

[01:35:51] I saw a social media post concept art of him and it's just like, Ooh, his abs.

[01:35:56] Ooh, abs.

[01:35:58] Um, is he more beautiful than Soma Cruz?

[01:36:03] Fuck.

[01:36:06] Oh, come on, man.

[01:36:07] A little bit more than Soma.

[01:36:09] Maybe more than Soma.

[01:36:11] Wow.

[01:36:12] It's too lofty, man.

[01:36:13] Why did you ask that?

[01:36:15] I tried to think of the most beautiful man I could think of in my mind with the Soma.

[01:36:18] What can, what can I say?

[01:36:19] A little more than Soma, a little bit more.

[01:36:21] Wow.

[01:36:21] It's hard.

[01:36:23] I think I would still say Soma.

[01:36:24] You still say Soma?

[01:36:25] Soma is pretty pretty.

[01:36:26] Yeah.

[01:36:27] Yeah.

[01:36:27] He's, he's very beautiful.

[01:36:30] Um, I really hated that the last dungeon of sorts was just like a rehash.

[01:36:36] Like you just, Oh, here are all the places you've been to, but now it looks spoopy and here

[01:36:41] are all the bosses you fought, but now they're the, you like it was savage mantis ant.

[01:36:46] And there's nothing savage about that.

[01:36:48] Yeah.

[01:36:49] Savage whoever.

[01:36:50] And it's like, man, that just, I think there was savage grapple of vine.

[01:36:55] I'm like, there was nothing savage about him back then.

[01:36:58] Nope.

[01:36:58] Or in this game.

[01:36:59] It was nothing.

[01:37:00] The only thing savage about him was his attacks and trials of mana.

[01:37:04] Not this one.

[01:37:05] Nope.

[01:37:06] Not savage.

[01:37:07] But, um, I'll sort of joking that the artificially prolonged this game because you're in the

[01:37:11] mana sanctuary, man.

[01:37:13] And all this stuff is just like showing up.

[01:37:15] So it just kind of sucks.

[01:37:17] Right.

[01:37:17] And it's just, they didn't have to do it to this degree.

[01:37:19] Like give us something more interesting to look at.

[01:37:21] Like I know they're probably proud of their environments, but come on, man.

[01:37:24] I think they ran out of, they probably ran out of time or something.

[01:37:27] I don't know, man.

[01:37:27] It's almost what happens.

[01:37:29] But there is one, there is one ray of light among all of this and seeing the past alms,

[01:37:36] i.e.

[01:37:37] the literal visions of mana.

[01:37:39] That stuff was pretty fascinating.

[01:37:41] Cool.

[01:37:42] Um, well, two things.

[01:37:44] One, do you like how in a turn, uh, Val was like, oh, it must be one of those visions

[01:37:48] again.

[01:37:50] I was like, you know what he could have said?

[01:37:53] One of those visions of mana.

[01:37:54] This feels like a vision of mana.

[01:37:57] Yeah.

[01:37:57] Right.

[01:37:58] Um, could have.

[01:37:59] Number two.

[01:38:00] Yeah.

[01:38:01] I thought that was also cool.

[01:38:02] You see like other basic bitch ass NPC is like making their, you know, pilgrimage up

[01:38:06] there.

[01:38:06] I thought, I thought that was really interesting.

[01:38:08] Yeah.

[01:38:08] I thought that was like, well, like you're hella costumed to fuck, right?

[01:38:12] Your party.

[01:38:12] And these just like basic, like town, townsfolk.

[01:38:15] Right.

[01:38:16] So dress for the occasion.

[01:38:17] And they're just some schmuck that could have been plucked from town.

[01:38:21] Yep.

[01:38:23] Um, so funny.

[01:38:25] I guess I like the whole idea of like this land of, you know, whatever the, the world

[01:38:33] of visions of mana is all the other worlds of other mana games, like put into like kind

[01:38:37] of glommed into one thing, which I guess can explain why there's so many callback bosses.

[01:38:43] If you really want to give them that much credit, but they still suck that it doesn't matter

[01:38:47] if there's an excuse for it or not.

[01:38:49] They're still bad, but at least if you want to have a canonical reason for it, there's

[01:38:53] that.

[01:38:56] And yeah, they, they kind of imply that Pat, like some past game happened.

[01:39:00] They literally draw a contrast between two different eras of this world.

[01:39:03] That stuff is kind of cool.

[01:39:04] The fact that they're like, Oh, these five realms were melted as the one.

[01:39:07] And then like shenanigans happen.

[01:39:09] And that's pretty dope.

[01:39:10] And like, we've been joking that like Randy from secret of mana pretty much shows up as

[01:39:14] an NPC in this game.

[01:39:15] He's just, he's Koda now.

[01:39:17] He's the original guard.

[01:39:18] It's Randy.

[01:39:19] It's fucking Randy.

[01:39:20] It's like, it looks exactly like Randy.

[01:39:21] It's Randy.

[01:39:22] I know.

[01:39:22] We know it's delivered.

[01:39:23] We know it's delivered.

[01:39:24] Of course.

[01:39:24] It's Randy.

[01:39:25] Yeah.

[01:39:25] But it's, it's just so funny.

[01:39:28] And, but, and, and speaking of that whole ending sequence, like a code is like, like egging

[01:39:34] Val to like, try to like change destiny and, but wait, there might be consequences.

[01:39:40] And so like Val does this whole mana sort of thing and it kind of cuts the credits and

[01:39:45] I'm like, huh?

[01:39:46] Well, that's interesting.

[01:39:47] They didn't like literally show it, but it seems like the implication is that he severed

[01:39:51] the whole cycle of all sacrifice.

[01:39:53] It seems like that's what happened.

[01:39:54] Yeah.

[01:39:55] And he, you, you actually see the end of his life.

[01:39:59] Like he's a, he dies.

[01:40:00] Right.

[01:40:00] And then this is why I didn't expect that at all.

[01:40:03] And then he goes to, he becomes a, he comes to spirit goes, he becomes a new Randy and

[01:40:09] he gets to be with Hina, who was the goddess of mana.

[01:40:12] Now, of course she is.

[01:40:14] So fucking convenient.

[01:40:15] So fucking convenient.

[01:40:16] I mean, look, I mean, what else could you expect?

[01:40:18] Right.

[01:40:19] Whatever.

[01:40:20] But it's like, yeah, I got, he's got stories to tell.

[01:40:23] It's like, oh, that's, that's great, buddy.

[01:40:26] I think the only other thing I really have to say is that I really didn't like the angle

[01:40:31] at the end of like, you know, everyone is forgiven in heaven, basically kind of thing

[01:40:36] where it's like, cause like Oren and Dalifos did some really fucked up shit.

[01:40:41] Okay.

[01:40:42] They did.

[01:40:42] And like the reward at the end of the day is okay.

[01:40:45] Both of you get to be with your hose in heaven in the afterlife.

[01:40:47] Like, fuck that.

[01:40:49] Like, why do they get a happy ending?

[01:40:52] His beloved literally says, I've been watching you this entire time.

[01:40:55] Have you been seeing how many people he's been killing me?

[01:40:58] And like, even see, you're just going to like, let them do like, you're not reacting

[01:41:01] to anything.

[01:41:02] You did.

[01:41:02] You're just going to let them like do it.

[01:41:03] It's like, yeah.

[01:41:04] What?

[01:41:05] It's like unbelievable.

[01:41:07] It's wild.

[01:41:08] I, I just cannot.

[01:41:10] That's, that's so, that's fucked up.

[01:41:11] I was like, I don't want them to have happy endings.

[01:41:14] I didn't like that, but whatever.

[01:41:16] Yeah.

[01:41:16] I like, look, he can tactically go back to the trees of soul, but he ain't got

[01:41:21] to meet his beloved again in the afterlife.

[01:41:23] You ain't got to do all that business.

[01:41:24] Like he doesn't deserve it.

[01:41:27] Like he cursed the entire land.

[01:41:29] He cursed everybody.

[01:41:31] He caused this cycle of sacrifice.

[01:41:34] Yeah.

[01:41:35] He fucked up.

[01:41:35] The problems got fucked up.

[01:41:37] Yeah.

[01:41:37] So it's like weird, man.

[01:41:38] I don't know.

[01:41:39] And your reward is that you get to be with it.

[01:41:41] You don't get to be with anybody.

[01:41:42] You should go to hell.

[01:41:44] Like whatever, man.

[01:41:46] I just bullshit.

[01:41:47] Anyway, I think that's about all the spoiler stuff I have to say.

[01:41:50] Did we skip over anything?

[01:41:52] I guess the fact that, I don't know, but never dawns are back a baby.

[01:41:55] I guess.

[01:41:56] I don't mean that's about it.

[01:41:58] Other than that, they have new designs, except the dark one actually does share a

[01:42:03] lot of design overlap with like the trials one for some reason, but the other

[01:42:07] seven are brand new.

[01:42:10] And I thought like some of them were kind of cool looking.

[01:42:12] Not obviously the fights weren't as cool as trials of mana, but I like to look at

[01:42:17] those, but those new benevolence, uh, the, the, the wood and the light ones

[01:42:21] particularly seem pretty neat, but like a lot of those designs are like, they're

[01:42:24] fine.

[01:42:25] Okay.

[01:42:26] I guess they look again.

[01:42:28] They were so not fun to play that.

[01:42:31] I just didn't really, I just don't care what they looked like.

[01:42:34] Quite honestly, it's whatever.

[01:42:36] Thanks to mash square on.

[01:42:37] I think it described, uh, uh, well, which one was that?

[01:42:41] I think it described the water one as being like vector, the crocodiles, asshole

[01:42:44] cousin or something like that.

[01:42:46] I don't remember what that looked like at all.

[01:42:49] Straight up.

[01:42:50] Anyway, I remember the thing on the boat.

[01:42:52] I remember the gecko or whatever frog.

[01:42:56] And yeah, the frog, the luna frog.

[01:42:58] That's genuinely about it.

[01:43:00] I don't remember anything else.

[01:43:02] Anyway, that's about it.

[01:43:03] I think that's all the spoiler things that we have to say.

[01:43:06] Thank you so much.

[01:43:07] If you stuck it out with us to the end of this podcast, we appreciate it.

[01:43:11] Check out Vin's Twitch channel or other social media, which we will link in the

[01:43:15] description of this podcast.

[01:43:16] Plus the links to fine time podcast.

[01:43:18] I think we can get out of here.

[01:43:19] Do we have anything else to say?

[01:43:21] Uh, Vin of mana.

[01:43:23] Um, by the graces of the goddess of mana, I declare this to be a fine time of

[01:43:29] mana.

[01:43:31] That doesn't make any sense.

[01:43:32] Good night, everybody.

[01:43:33] We'll catch you next time.

[01:43:35] This has been.