Devil May Cry: The PlayStation 2 Trilogy | Forgotten Worlds

[00:00:00] This is your mind on Fine Time Hello, party people. Hello, Dante people. It's your boy Dre. That's all I had. I'm sorry. Hello, Dante people.

[00:00:27] And I am here with first time guest on Fine Time. Their name is Matt. Hi, I'm happy to be here. Longtime listener, first time caller. Yes, I love that. That goes right along with our radio indents we play. Yes, thank you. That is the radio vibe around here. Thanks for joining me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I forgot how this conversation came up. I think you were replaying maybe the first game or just talking or we were lamenting about character action games.

[00:00:57] And yes, I floated the I you I think we're talking about at some point wanting to cover the PlayStation trilogy. And I was like, well, you know, I mean, some of my favorite games. Well, two of the three are I'll come on and talk about them. And then we both proceeded to not have time for like half a year to do it. But here we are. We made it. We made it happen. Well, yes, we made it happen. Thank you. That's the thing about fine time. It's like we we put ideas on our board and when we get to them is when we get to them.

[00:01:24] I do not give up on them. We don't have timetables on these things. I'm like whenever they have time, we'll we will get there. And now we're here. So I'm glad you're here. But before we get started on the devil may cry, you do a number of things in the podcast space. Why don't you tell the people about those since they might be unfamiliar? Sure. Happy to. So, yeah, I've been a podcaster for God, almost 12 years now.

[00:01:51] Wow. That makes me feel very old. Like, you know, the the the meme photo of Thanos turning to dust. That's me realizing how long I've been doing this. And I've had a variety of different podcasts come and gone. Unfortunately, last year was the death of the Game Informer show, which I was an editor for an occasional guest and all of Game Informer, not just the podcast, which is a bummer. Sad. But but I still do two other video game podcasts. One is called fun and games. The main show is a discussion based podcast that I do with the incredible Jeff Moonen.

[00:02:20] It's topic by topic. We do retrospectives. We interview game devs, composers. We have guests on to talk about specific topics like signposting in video games or is grinding necessary? Things like that. And it's really fun, usually about an hour long. And we have some really great conversations with great guests and do some fun interviews. We also do like live events like we go to Pax East and Pax West and talk to devs on the show floor, that kind of thing. And then we have a sub series within that feed called Sidequests. Andre, you've done, I think, three episodes now.

[00:02:49] I have. Thank you. Yeast book one and two Shinobi, the PS two one. What was the first one you did? It was a Genesis game. They'll give you a hint. Oh, my God. Alicia Dragoon. Yeah, Alicia Dragoon. Yeah, that one was I have no I still I like I listened to that episode and it still don't know what that game is. So that's why I forgot it. My favorite 16 bit action game. Like I said on like I said on the episode. Absolute absolute all time banger. Love the Alicia Dragoon.

[00:03:17] But I love having you on those for those uninitiated side quests is a short form series within the same feed where a different host every every episode talks about a game they love and why they love it. We come from this idea at the podcast that every game is somebody's favorite good bad and different doesn't matter. Everybody loves every game at some point or has a favorite game of some kind. And this is a series celebrating it. And it's not just podcast hosts like Andre.

[00:03:42] It's listeners of the show comedians burlesque performers like anyone who loves a video game and wants to talk about it is welcome on the show to do just that. And that's that airs three times every two weeks the off weeks for the fun games episode and then every Monday. And so that's a real blast. I love doing that and boosting those voices of folks who love games. And then the second show to keep it as brief as possible is called reignite.

[00:04:09] I host it with the incredible Mary Bradley Lestrange. They and I are obsessed with the Mass Effect series. And so we started this to replay Mass Effect and discuss our choices. We made as if we were Shepard and like why we made those choices like if we were Shepard, why would we make those choices? And more importantly, why would we romance the aliens we romanced? And it was so much fun. We really love those games and love doing it. So after the original trilogy, we moved on to Andromeda, which I hadn't played until we covered it.

[00:04:37] And now we're doing and now we're doing the Dragon Age series, which makes us actually current with gaming news because there's a new Dragon Age out, which only took 10 years. But we're currently they had. That's it. Just 10. But we are making our way through Dragon Age 2 as of this recording and excited to cover Railguard when we get to it. But yeah, and that's been going on for a while. And I imagine we'll cover Dragon Age games till there's a new Mass Effect, hopefully, or who knows? We'll branch out to other things. But yeah, that's the broad strokes of what I do.

[00:05:07] I'm also a DJ and I've been in around podcasting for, like I said, about 12 years. And so if any of that sounds interesting to you, check it out. Yeah, definitely. I'll put all the links to Matt's stuff in the description of this podcast. Of course, everyone could go check that out. I really enjoyed recently on fun games. You talked about, I think, like, not not signposting. We said signpost number.

[00:05:32] I think like NPCs you had, like, I don't know if it was about like dialogue boxes or something like that, or maybe related stuff that that that I really I really like getting into the nitty gritty of like a singular topic that way. Like, so I enjoyed that one. Thank you. I appreciate you listening. Yeah, we did. It was on party chat specifically. So like dialogue between characters and text box form in the old days, olden days as we grew up with.

[00:05:57] And then like now in games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age where when you're running around with your your partners and they are bickering with each other or making comments or talking to the character and just how it's evolved over the years. Yeah, we sometimes we get really broad and talk about massive topics and sometimes you get really granular with the nitty gritty and like pick out a specific thing that is worth investigating. And so it's fun to have that diversity for the show. Yeah, absolutely. I really I want to I want to get into the minutiae. Well, I mean, I can't even talk.

[00:06:27] I mean, the reason why I'm even having you on besides your badass is that like Steve and Kevin don't give a fuck about Devil May Cry. I could not even imagine them caring for a second. I have nobody to talk about this with like ever. If I ever were to just make like a reference to just like the most basic cut scene in a Devil May Cry, they would have no idea what I'm talking about. They've never heard. I bet they've never heard Dante speak a word in their lives that why that's their loss. And I am glad to fill that role.

[00:06:54] I mean, it's it's hard to fill the shoes of Steve or Kevin, but I will do my best because I am obsessed with Devil May Cry. Besides possibly being a queer awakening when I was younger, I just loved those games. And and I feel like I just don't talk about it enough. I feel like they were like my whole personality when they were popular, but like now because it's been so long since the most recent one. It's like I don't I forget that I love these games because I just I don't have an outlet to talk about it. Yeah, me too.

[00:07:23] I just I really especially like I said at the time they were just some of my favorites. So before we get talking about them proper, I do want to say this episode assumes you have already played the game. So which means we might or might not talk about story elements that could be considered spoilers for most. But I don't know. We didn't really think anyone would really care about games this old. I usually don't do spoiler alerts for games this old.

[00:07:51] So I'm just saying it right here just in case anyone's like, oh, man, I haven't played that game from 2001. Well, here's your warning, I guess. I mean, that's fair. I it's funny games like Final Fantasy 7 and remake and rebirth have ruined spoilers like I'm a I'm pro not ruining things for people and like keeping mystery.

[00:08:10] But also they are remaking a very old game that has one of the most known and like canonical video game events ever in it. And yet I still tiptoe around it because I want to ruin the reason why it's so dumb. We've just gone. I know. I know. But it's like, I mean, look, I mean, have you played rebirth? I have. I've finished. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, obviously, you know what happens in that game.

[00:08:39] Now, if we talk about the way it goes down there. Sure. Right. But like in general, come on, please. Right. Anyway, let's establish the kind of Capcom fans. We were rather leading up to Devil May Cry. Let me ask you, were you excited for this? Were you? Was it just something that you saw on the shelf one day? It's like, oh, there it is. Or were you like a Capcom person? So, I mean, I was a Capcom fan. I, you know, love the early Street Fighter games. Mega Man was my franchise.

[00:09:08] So, loved all the Mega Man games, all the Mega Man X games that were out until that point. We won't talk about the Mega Man X games on the PlayStation 2. But so I was a fan of Capcom and like, I didn't really play. Well, that's not true. I played the first Resident Evil on PlayStation and nearly wet myself and returned it within minutes. Like I just, not for me. Oh my God. And then the same thing happened with the GameCube version of Resident Evil 1, the remake. I like got 20 minutes into that game and then made my dad take me back to Blockbuster.

[00:09:37] It's like, nope, not playing this one. Too scary. But, but I was a fan of Capcom as a company. And when I got my PS2, I got it pretty late. And so, but I wanted to pick up and by late, I mean, I think later that year or whatever. And so I wanted to get one of the launch titles. And I saw this game cover with a cool looking guy in a long red coat with white hair and a gun and a sword. And I was like, oh, well, this looks neat. And so I kind of picked it up just on that.

[00:10:05] I don't know that like, I was definitely reading gaming magazines at the time, but I don't know that I was like, I wasn't a capital G gamer, as we like to say. Right. Until I got much older. Like, you know, I think I identified as someone who's loved video games, but I still for sure wasn't following trends that would come a couple years later. By the third friend, the third installment, I was like, oh, I knew it was coming out. I wanted it. But this one, I just kind of like thought it looked cool and was a big Capcom fan fan already.

[00:10:31] So I picked it up along with the bouncer that square classic, the bouncer. My friend had that. Yeah, he got it when it came out. He had the PS2 first. So I that's where in fact, that's how I played Devil May Cry in the first place, because he had it right until I got my own. I didn't get my own PS2 until like Christmas 2003. So like most of most yeah, most of me playing games was that. But I did play Devil May Cry when it came out because he had a mobile Capcom heads.

[00:11:01] I think everyone who listens to the show knows I was a huge arcade head. And of course, that means Capcom growing up in the 80s and 90s. Jesus Christ. I mean, what can you say? I don't even have to go over it. Right. So but their games at home were basically Mega Man and those NES like Disney games, which are great. I love those games. Oh, incredible. Darkwing ducks like just one of the best Disney afternoon. I spent like an entire week.

[00:11:29] I think it was like 2020 when I was really yeah, that has to have been the most bored. I was like pretty recently. Right. So it has to have been that year. I remember I had just gotten the PS5. I was just picking up a bunch of digital games. I hadn't gotten yet on PS4. I was like, oh, Disney afternoon. I blew through those in like in a week and I I could not put them down. I was like, I forgot how good these were. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. But as far as games at home, it's like you said, Resident Evil really popped it because I was like, oh, wait, they can do stuff like this. Okay.

[00:11:59] Wow. I wasn't expecting this. And of course, I didn't know what to do. I ran out of ammo in two seconds. The dog scared the shit out of me. The whole the whole bit. Right. I had the whole experience. But yeah, when the PS2 came out, I think you probably remember that first year wasn't like I mean, we got a lot of stuff that seemed like upgrades of stuff that was on PS1. Right. Which is great. A Street Fighter EX three or like a, you know, like stuff like that, which a Tekken tag tournament. Excellent stuff. Right.

[00:12:27] I love those games, but I was looking for that next evolutionary step. I was like, oh, what's like the big thing that felt like Devil May Cry to me now more than ever. Like when I look back on it, I'm like, oh, it really was that. But yeah, then DMC to suck so much. I didn't play it until like three years after the fact. I was just like, I can't I didn't play three rather until like years after the fact. So put me off of the franchise so much. So I waited on three. I didn't play that when it came out. But the first two. Yeah.

[00:12:58] Yeah. I remember I got one and loved it. And then she was announced not long after because they came out pretty quickly. And I got to I think I rented to and like, I don't know that I was a strong enough like person who like was a connoisseur of video games to go. This is a bad video game, but I definitely didn't have a good time with it. Like now I recognize how terrible it is. But like I think at the time I was just like, well, this is different. Where's Dante's quips?

[00:13:26] Like for me, the thing that killed it for me was not the gameplay because the gameplay not good, but like what really killed it for me because I love the the over the top nonsense of it all was like how Dante was just a different character. Like it was not the same character. And I had the opposite effect when they announced three and I saw that it was a prequel and I saw the trailer with him in Virgil. I was like, oh, I'm buying this day one. This may redeem this whole franchise. I went the other way because I was so pissed and upset too. That I was like, I need to I need to get this taste out of my mouth.

[00:13:56] I need the next Devil May Cry. Hopefully this one's better. I remember a friend at the time. He was really into Devil May Cry even more than me. And he was like, you know, he was swearing up and down by this Devil May Cry three. And I watched him play a little bit of it. I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'll get there when I get there. Right. It wasn't until after four four reignited me. Four is four is my absolute favorite one. Is that weird? No. So I think what's what's the problem with four is because I had the I got the four.

[00:14:24] I got four on Xbox 360 as soon as it came out and was excited to play it. And then you boot it up and you are not Dante and you are not Dante for a while. And I, as an edgelord teenager and young adult was like, where's my bad ass guy? Where's Dante? And I was just mad half the game that you weren't playing as him. And then when you got to unlock him, he was still a blast to play as. But like I when they announced five, which is my favorite in the series, I that year went back and played the PC version because I didn't have 360 anymore.

[00:14:53] And I replayed and went, this game is excellent. Why? I was a moron. To be fair, there were a lot of game crimes when I was younger. Like I didn't I've still not to this day played Wind Waker because when I was a kid, I was like, oh, this looks like a cartoon. It's dumb. I don't want to play it. Oh, no, you were one of those. I was also I only I didn't play Metroid Prime for the first time until the remaster on switch came out, which was excellent. Be for the same thing. I was like, well, my Metroid games are side scrollers. This is dumb. Oh, no. Yeah.

[00:15:23] So like I made a lot of mistakes in that era. And so, you know, we can't we're not all perfect. But but yeah, no, I and so I think it was a similar thing with Devil May Cry 4. I was so annoyed that it took so long to be Dante that I didn't like I convinced myself I didn't like it. But when I replayed it a couple years back, I was like, this game is excellent. It's such a good game. Oh, yeah, it's it's I'm glad it's gotten its due, especially with that special edition.

[00:15:51] I guess it was like a PS4 Xbox one thing or whatever. I mean, that's how I recently replayed it myself. And I was just like, it just reaffirmed what I already thought. It was like, was it really my favorite? Yeah, it is my favorite. Um, anything else about the early 2000s? Like as far as like you've mentioned, um, other stuff you're like, is there anything else? Like what what kind of gamer capital G gamer were you in the early 2000? What else did you play on those systems?

[00:16:17] Well, so I had the PS2 and that would have been around when the GameCube, I guess, was out as well. Um, uh, so like I was I loved the Mario games and like I loved Luigi's Mansion and I loved like pretty much I was a Nintendo fanboy growing up. And so I had all of that. And like I lived off of my Game Boy Advance, which would I think would have been the Game Boy Advance by then. Um, like I I loved Game Boy Advance RPGs.

[00:16:42] So Golden Sun, Mario and Luigi, um, you know, the Final Fantasy remakes or re-releases, um, although I never got far in those. Um, like I loved all of that stuff. And so that was kind of like I was always a handheld gamer first for the PS2. I had a variety of stuff like I dabbled in the wrestling game, the early wrestling games of the time. So I love the story modes and the creative characters. Um, like I said, I for better or worse had the Mega Man X games on us. I think seven might have been out by then. I don't think it was.

[00:17:11] Yeah, I think I think that's a well, yeah, Capcom had a rough 2003. They had Mega Man X seven and Devil May Cry to like within like short order. It was like, oh, no, I actually don't think I won't. I am not an X seven defender. Do not get me wrong. I just don't think it's as bad as that. It's not like one of the worst games I've ever played. It's not good, but people put on these lists of like this is like an abomination. I don't think so. There's lots of good things about the game. It just does not come together.

[00:17:38] Yeah, I would argue that Mega Man X three is worse because X one and two are tight. Three is a mess. And the next four, I think, is the PlayStation one is probably the best in the series. If you would agree. I would agree. But but yeah. And so I, you know, on the PlayStation two, I also played, you know, I it's funny. I like I grew up playing crash, but I never grew up playing any like for most people. The PS two was the mascot platformer system, right? It wasn't for me. I didn't play. I've still never played Jack and Daxter.

[00:18:07] I only played Ratchet and Clank for the first time for the re the 2016 remake when they remade it for the movie or maybe those 2020 whenever that came out. It was it was it was 16. It was 2016. That was the first time I ever played that. And then what was the other one? It was Sly Cooper. I played like the first like Cooper for the first time last year. So like I missed all of those and I'm someone who grew up playing platformer games. So it's just very weird that like that's that gap in my history during that era. But like I played a variety of stuff.

[00:18:35] I think I still hated first person shooters mostly because I worked on and off at a GameStop and like the people I knew who played first person shooters were kind of the worst people. It was a stereotype for a reason. We can't deny it. And so I didn't really play those. But of course, I had the Grand Theft Auto games. Like I remember the first time I played Grand Theft Auto 3 and not even about the things that like were rightfully kind of weird or fucked up in the over to the top violence. It was just the being able to like run around, toss someone out of a car, drive off, drive

[00:19:04] off a cliff, like do a jump. Like it's just the ridiculous stuff you get up to in that game. And like the PS2 was the first time I think I like really went, wow, these graphics are awesome. Now, kind of laughable now when you go back. Like at the time it like I still remember playing. Um, I although to this day I've still never finished it, but the first time I played Final Fantasy 10, I was like, these are real people. They look like real people. And like, yeah, that game blew me away. That was definitely a benchmark for me on PS2.

[00:19:34] That was like the first PS2 game I saw where I was just like, get the fuck out. A game looks like this. A game actually looks like this. This is crazy. It's still actually looks good. It does. It holds up, but like the remaster does a lot of work to like smooth it out. But it is a game that was already pretty impressive. And the voice acting is really good. Like a lot of people like to rag on that famous laugh and some other things. But truly the the the game is really well written and really well voice acted. The cast does a really great job.

[00:20:04] Like I think it's it's definitely one of the best games on that console easily. I need to replay it. I have never played that game since I came out again with my friend who had the PS2. Like we played through that game together. I have never even so much as looked at the game sense. I would love to revisit it and see if I still feel feels. Yeah, there's one other thing. This shortly after this era or during this era was the rise of the rhythm game. You know, DBR had been around for a while, but it wasn't my speech.

[00:20:33] I have two left feet. But when Guitar Hero one came out, a friend of mine gifted me the guitar and the game. And I became obsessed. Guitar Hero two, three rock band. I am someone who can safely say I've spent on all of rock bands totality. So one, two, three, the spinoffs, the DLC. I've probably spent five grand on like instruments deal because because I bought deals for at least three years. I bought DLC every week, like every single week.

[00:21:00] And so plus all the spinoffs, plus multiple instruments, I had two guitars, multiple microphones, drum set. Like I just I was obsessed with those games because I'm a music nerd. And so it's one of those things that and then, of course, the Kingdom Hearts series to one and two. I loved, you know, I still love that franchise. I have my complaints about it.

[00:21:22] But like I was it was it was one of those franchises that showed me, wow, JRPGs can be really different, really weird because I was used to turn based stuff. And it was just not that very early in this show's history. We did an episode, me and then frequent guests of the show. Then we did an episode where we played Kingdom Hearts three. Neither of us have ever played a Kingdom Hearts before. No, we made that our first. We did it on purpose. Obviously, we knew how this would go.

[00:21:52] Right. So it's like I think it would be funny if we just played Kingdom Hearts three and that's it. Yeah. And it was funny. It was really, really, really funny. We just look Kingdom Hearts isn't really our thing to begin with. Like that's obviously why we had never played them. It's just that that just doesn't appeal to us. But it was just like, let's see if we can glean anything that's happening. And we really, really couldn't. We tried, though. We really tried.

[00:22:21] It was funny. It made for it made for a good show. So you mentioned queer awakening earlier. Yeah. Yeah. I really. Okay. So here's the thing.

[00:22:51] Dante is a character for me has never been like the appeal. Devil May Cry. It's always been like the game. Play. I'm not saying I never thought Dante wasn't cool or anything. It's just that, you know, he's just he's a dude with a sword and he has silver. He looks very 2001. He looks very. Yes. Edgelord 2000, which is great. Right. He should look like that. Yeah. But I wasn't you. You seem to have a, you know, little, little more than that. So, yeah.

[00:23:17] I mean, I didn't really come out till much later, but like I definitely like admired and was very infatuated with Dante as a character, especially like the original version did look cool. And I was a little goth kid. So like the edgelord was relatable. But by the time we got to the third one where he's got the open jacket and no shirt on and he's like topless the whole opening cutscene and the graphics are better in that one. Like there was something to it.

[00:23:42] I don't know that at the time I would have identified it as like like something that helped me realize I was queer. But now looking back, I absolutely think it was plus also on the other side, like being a pansexual. It's like then you've got Trish and then you've got a lady and then you've got like there's a lot of attractive characters in that series. So, yeah, the original the Devil May Cry original came out was like 19. Yeah, I was 19 in 2001. So, yeah, Trish. I mean, look, I'm saying that as if, you know, I'm 42.

[00:24:11] I'm saying that as if I don't look at Trish like that now. I'm just saying as a 19 year old. Yes. Right. Like I was I was there for that. And again, that was like also an archetype of the early 2000s. Like, you know, her tits enter the room before she does. And just, you know, like that that kind of thing that was just that was just character design back then. And I very much appreciated it. I can I can say. Yeah. I mean, it's it's safe to understand now or safe to say that then I didn't understand her lack of agency, at least in the first game.

[00:24:41] Like she's this badass until Dante needs to rescue someone and then, oh, no, she's captured. But like, I feel like the series got better with that stuff. I think that four and five especially give the the femme characters a lot more agency and the stories are a little more diverse, if not really wacky. But yeah, I think like I don't know that I sat there and went Dante is a cool character, but I definitely like I liked the character a lot. And the design was probably part of it.

[00:25:10] Also, like I was an anime nerd. So like white hair, it's like at that point, it's like it's basically an anime character. Yeah. You know, you know, you're right. Because like I I mean, I was I was a very nerd teenager about the anime. I bought like VHS is and stuff like that. Same back in the day. Okay. Yeah. So like so when we got to Dante, I was like, okay, yeah, this makes sense. We just took a very anime ass character. But I think for a lot of people who wouldn't be into anime at that point, they're like, whoa, you know what I mean?

[00:25:40] It's probably something a bit more about a bit more fresh for them. It's like to see a character like that. I think totally. Yeah. Did you ever see did you ever watch the 2007 anime the Devil May Cry anime from back then? I've never seen that. I don't know. Did I don't know that I could tell you a thing about it. I think it I mean, I'm pretty sure it follows the story of the first game mostly. Okay, I feel like lady was in it also. So I don't know. But like I never I definitely watched it because I think it was like seven like it wasn't a full season or any.

[00:26:10] I think it was just the one season. It was like 12 episodes or something. I think it wasn't like a full 26 or something. Yeah, but it didn't stick with me. But I feel like it like when the new Castlevania came out and like I heard that that eventually that studio. I think that studio is the ones doing the new Devil May Cry anime. I was like, well, that makes sense because the old Devil May Cry anime basically looks like the new Castlevania anime. And so I was like, I'm sure there's some connections there. If not just stylistically, it was influenced. But like, yeah, I remember the anime being good.

[00:26:37] I think it was I think what through what made me excited is I think the English voice actor for the games reprised his role in the anime or maybe it was that the guy who went on to play Dante and Forks. I think it's a different guy was also the voice of the anime, something like that. There was some synergy that made it really great. Okay. Yeah, that I'm I always rely on Steve for when we watch an anime or whatever I always or even just an old game or something.

[00:27:04] I rely on him for the voice actor stuff because he's into that, you know, so I'm really bad at picking out stuff because he's always like, oh, didn't you write? That's that's Troy Baker again. And I'm like, I'll never I'll never hear it. I'm sorry. I just won't. You know, we talked about it a little bit already just because you we mentioned Devil May Cry 2 briefly already and we talked about the change in Dante's demeanor.

[00:27:30] I find it very interesting kind of going through these games again back to back to back is that Dante is just different in every game. He's just a completely different person practically in every game and in Devil May Cry 2. It's a bad thing, right? Because it's just like very flat and just like barely says a word that came. Yeah, there's the game feels diseased, right? But even just between the original and three, he's just like two different people, you know, and it's just something.

[00:28:00] Did that something you notice at the time? Because like I certainly did not. I wait like I played I got this Devil May Cry HD trilogy or whatever it is on PS4 and like it like 2019 around like when five came out. Right. So I was just like, okay, I'm going to play through them all again. And then that was it was then that I noticed because I definitely didn't notice back in the day.

[00:28:21] No, I mean, I think I noticed that the characters acted very different, but like at least from three to one, I chalked it up to being a prequel and he's younger. So if he sounds a little different to I was like I said, I hinted at earlier. I was absolutely annoyed and irritated because like I readily recognize that this isn't the same character. Like what happened between these two games? Why is he like this? I mean, as it's come to reveal like it was just it was a different team. They thought like the first game didn't sell super well.

[00:28:51] And so they wanted to try something different and they assumed it was the characterization. And so they wanted to like pivot away from it. Like famously, Devil May Cry started as like a Resident Evil game and then realized it was going in a different direction and they wanted to try something different. But like, yeah, I think like I'm more like again, I think from three to one, I'm more marked it as like, well, it's a different actor because and he's personalities different because he's younger. He's learning. Right.

[00:29:19] But two, I was just pissed off and I was like, this is dumb. Why is he so different? It doesn't make sense. Yeah, just it just I mean, it straight up felt unfinished because, well, I guess it was right. Yeah, it was. I don't know if this is something we could even encompass in a show like this. It probably it probably have to focus on justice to really answer this properly.

[00:29:41] But I genuinely feel like Devil May Cry does not get the credit for what it did for action games in 3D still to this day. I feel like people are more liable to credit something like Bayonetta and like, don't get me wrong. Bayonetta is my favorite 3D action game of all time. OK, absolutely. Hands down at the same time, what Devil May Cry, how Devil May Cry laid the foundation for that.

[00:30:10] And I guess Hideki Kamiya in general is something I genuinely think goes under the radar sometimes because maybe this has been so long. It's been what? Almost 25 years getting to be right since the original. Maybe that's just time or age or whatnot. But do you feel that way? I feel like especially because like if people are going to talk about an old one, they're going to talk about three. They're not going to talk about the original. Yeah, I mean, also, I was confusing my anime.

[00:30:38] So Johnny Young Bosch, famously from Power Rangers and from Vest Stampede and Trigon. OK, the voice of Dante, I believe. Oh, no, maybe he's the voice of. What's his name? The other word for no, no. The one who started in for I'm blanking on his name. Oh, Nero Nero. I believe he's the voice of Nero, not Dante. But I think he's voicing Nero in both. And then the yeah. Yes.

[00:31:04] Nero who's Nero and four and he's Nero in the new game and he's voicing Nero in the anime. But Ruben Langdon is the voice of Dante in five and four. And he's the voice of Dante in the first game. OK, I think he's the voice of Dante in three because again, he was younger. So they had a different actor play him. Sounds way different. Yeah, but yeah. But Ruben's been Dante, I think, in most of the titles except for obviously two. OK. Oh, no, I'm wrong. It is.

[00:31:32] He's uncredited in the game for some reason. But Ruben Langdon is Dante. There's a lot of things uncredited in two, I guess. Yeah. So anyway, he's he's been the voice of Dante all this time, which is great. OK, cool. That it's still the same guy playing him. But yeah, so I it's funny because I felt like there was a line in the sand when Devil May Cry and God of War came out. Right. Because they were both action games, different kinds of action games, but action games.

[00:32:02] And I had friends who swore by God of War, played the first two hours of God of War and was like, this game is terrible. This is dumb. I have there's no style. I'm not interested. Right. Objectively, it is a very good game, but it was just didn't hit the notes. But then I played Devil May Cry is like, this is goth. And like, you know, there's an early scene in the first game where you get stabbed and pinned to the floor by a sword and you rise up through it. I was like, this is cool. One of the best scenes of all time. One of the best cut scenes ever. Yeah. And so, like for me, it was always Devil May Cry.

[00:32:31] That was the first to me was like the reason I loved character action games and stylish action games because I love Devil May Cry. But I do feel like it's not mentioned in the same breath as other games as much. I think also part of that is Bayonetta like has more cultural cache than Dante only because she was in Smash Brothers and like the games got ported a bunch of times. And like that that's Kamiya right Hideki Kamiya.

[00:32:56] Yes, he is also more of a character and like, although didn't Kamiya? I can't remember if Kamiya worked on a deck. Kamiya did do the original Devil May Cry games, too. Yes, he's like the first one is the first one. Oh, just the first one. And so, like, you know, I think there's a similar DNA. But yeah, I agree. I don't think Devil May Cry is often put in those conversations. I always do. But we absolutely wouldn't have had Bayonetta without a game like Devil May Cry.

[00:33:22] I think it's the first game to popularize the over the top bombastic story with stylish action that has now become pretty common. You know, even when you get to stuff like Stellar Blade and other things that have these gigantic stories with over the top action. And and it'll always be my starting point. Like the first Devil May Cry is the reason I like these kinds of games and have gone on to love so many others. Yeah, I think the first game, in fact, let's talk about it right now.

[00:33:50] You mentioned it earlier in passing, but I'm sure most people know this or maybe they don't. Devil May Cry was born from an early attempt at Resident Evil 4. I think it was their first try to make that game. And then it's like, oops, we're making something else. Let's just make that. And you can really see it in the structure and direction of that game. Again, directed by Hideki Kamiya, who directed Resident Evil 2 a few years before that. That was like his first directing job.

[00:34:20] So you can see it. The fixed cameras, of course, the the construct of a mansion. Right. And like the surrounding areas, too. That is exactly like a Resident Evil. It's really uncanny. You know, it's funny, right? Like that was Capcom's formula back then. And I loved it. I love the fixed camera tank controls era. I love all those games, except maybe like the first Dino Crisis is a little right. But like, yeah, I love those games.

[00:34:48] And look, when something like Onimusha comes out, it's like, OK, this is familiar. I understand exactly what they're doing. Right. Devil May Cry. It has a lot of those constructs. Again, the fixed cameras. It's not tank controls anymore. It's a little strange. They try to do it halfway when the camera switches on you. You just keep running that direction no matter what you're holding on the control stick, which is weird, but fun. I thought that was weird even at the time. But even just the adventure aspects, right?

[00:35:18] There's locked doors. Oh, you got to get this key, right? Oh, you better use this item on this thing. Right. Again, it's not totally Resident Evil. Well, you're not completely backtracking and stuff unless the game tells you to because it's a, you know, a level by level go for its structure. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, did you think of it that way at the time? I'm sure you said you played Resident Evil before this, right? Or very limitedly. Like I said, I was a coward. I didn't really get into horror games until the last few years. And so no way I played it.

[00:35:47] I had no idea it was supposed to be Resident Evil for I found that out later. Ironically, when I started when I played Resident Evil for the original for the first time like five or six years ago, I was just doing some research because I wanted to talk about on the podcast and I saw that and was like, oh, well, that actually kind of makes sense. But I didn't. I had no idea at the time. Okay. Yeah, because I again, I kind of just being such a Capcom person and playing all of those. I was just like super into it that way. How long?

[00:36:15] I want to know because this is different for everybody. Of course. How long did it take you to understand what the game wanted from you in terms of combat? Because obviously we're in a completely new realm here. This isn't even something like a 3D beat them up where you just go up to someone and just mash on a button. I mean, you can kind of do that at the beginning. Right. But soon you learn. Oh, that's just not going to work for all situations. So could you anywhere you want to start there with combat?

[00:36:44] What how long did it take you to just wrap your head around it? I mean, it took me a while. I think I like I was used to used to button mashy like beat them up games, which I loved and still love. And so I assumed it was one of those. But once I realized you needed to buy moves and you needed to like learn combos. But once I understood that, I think I got better at it. I mean, admittedly, and I didn't get very far in my replay of don't make cry one. But like, I don't think that I'm as adept at it as I used to be.

[00:37:12] I'm sure if I like buckle down, I could probably pick it up because in the more modern games, I was able to do that. But I think ultimately it was like trial by fire learning and then putting it on easy just to get through it. Yeah, it was basically what it came down to. But there was definitely a difficulty curve of understanding what the game wanted that then for subsequent games, especially the third one, I felt more equipped to do than I did in the first one when I first played it.

[00:37:38] Speaking of easy, and I couldn't suss this out from playing the HD edition because maybe they changed it. I remember back in the day, if you died a couple times, they would ask you if you want to turn it down to easy. I think that's true. But I feel like also once you did that, it stayed on easy. You couldn't turn it back up to normal, but I don't remember. Okay. Yeah. See, because I feel like the HD just lets you choose easy. I feel like in the game, they make you play normal. And then it's like, oh, do you want to play easy?

[00:38:07] You know, I can't I can't remember what the what the cases now. It's been too long. But yeah, that sounds right. But I can't remember either. It's been too long since I played it in full. Yeah, I, you know, again, being a Capcom person, I was also under their fighting games. Now, I've never been any sort of fighting game expert, but I understood combos. I understood like blocking and then retaliating or punishing. They call it right. Right.

[00:38:33] So I felt like Devil May Cry is being like, oh, I have like a really robust set of moves here that I can use. I suppose. Oh, this one pops them up in the air. This one launches them. This one. Oh, I can charge them with this. So I kind of understood it, I guess, from fighting games to a degree, although it doesn't play like that. But there's a moment that really clicked with me. And what what the game wanted from me is when you fight that scorpion boss for the first time.

[00:39:00] And I feel like this might be the same for a lot of people. I don't really know. Again, I don't ever get to talk about Devil May Cry with anybody. So maybe maybe you had the same experience. But with that boss, I had bought the stinger move, the classic stinger move. And of course, if you the the scorpion boss charges up like a fireball and it shoots at you, if you stinger it while it's charging up, it'll explode on itself. Yeah, and it'll damage itself and it'll get stunned and you get some more.

[00:39:29] I think I accidentally did that to him. I would kept dying to this boss. I was getting so fucking pissed off. So I was like, fuck this shit. I'm just I'm just start stinger. I'm start stabbing at him. I just start like charging him. Right. And that happened to him. I stuffed his fireball with a stinger and I went, oh, light bulb went over my head. Right. Did you did you have that moment or did you have like a similar moment like that? Because I feel like that's not I can't be uncommon on this. No, it was the scorpion bus.

[00:39:58] I think the scorpion boss is the first like major boss that you fight. And if you just try and button mash it, you get clobbered and you die. And so after a few tries, it's like, well, there's got to be something else. And like this was in the era, the early days of game facts and other things. And so like looking up the the the what it is or looking at the strategy guide, it like gives you these tips and tricks. And it's when I started to piece together that, oh, in order to beat certain enemies from bosses, you have to try different strategies, try different moves.

[00:40:27] Use the different moves you've unlocked. And so, yeah, I absolutely remember that boss very specifically because of that moment of like, oh, this is the keys to getting through the rest of the game. Yeah, it's not just like, oh, do this move to him and he'll die. This one does the most damage. It's like you need to do this technique to him. Right. Right. And that was like that was totally different.

[00:40:52] Um, I really enjoyed at the time that this game was fairly difficult. This was a time when games were getting easier. This was a time when you were expected to beat the game. You know, growing up before that, it was just like if you could beat the game fine, if you couldn't, you know, good luck to you. This was a time where beating a game was an expectation. And this was pretty difficult even for like the time period. Did you did you feel that way? Well, you said you played it on easy.

[00:41:22] So I did. I'm almost positive I did to beat it. I mean, I I notoriously not great at video games. I can learn and like I have some games that I am really good at for the most part, like like the souls games like it Elden Ring was the first souls game I ever finished. And it's because I could over level and get past stuff that way or call in folks in co-op. Like I'm just notoriously not great at those kinds of games with those high difficulty curves. That said, I have completed every Metroid game and those games get ridiculously hard.

[00:41:50] So I think it just depends on the gameplay style. But for a game like this, for sure, I struggled in the beginning. And then like, for example, and it's contemporaries like Bayonetta, I put it I don't put it on easy necessarily. But I also always get bronze or stone instead of like the gold or platinum trophies at the end of the stages because I'm not doing the score run. I just want to get through play the game and like experience it, not necessarily perfect it. That's me, too. I've never been. Yeah, that's like a big thing of Devil May Cry. Right. Obviously, that's the score play of it.

[00:42:20] And that's fun at first, too, where you're like, oh, wait, I can keep juggling him in the air with the guns. Oh, I can. I can do this after and keep the combo up or something like that. I do try to do those things, but I don't worry about it too much. It's fun to do during combat, but it's definitely not like, oh, man, I need to totally pure platinum Bayonetta. Right. Like, it's just that's just not my that's just not my bag. But I do this game. The original game is pretty difficult.

[00:42:48] And with the way it uses retries and stuff before you have to like start the level over pretty stringent and no Devil May Cry. I don't know. Devil May Cry 3 is tough, too, but I feel like it's just tough. I don't think it's like with the retries and stuff. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really remember too much off the top of my head, but I believe it's more generous with like checkpointing. And like even if you die, like there's not really a I don't remember if there's a life system, but like I do.

[00:43:14] I do recall that like it's more either generous with the items you need to like resurrect or it's more generous with something that like it's a challenge, but it doesn't feel insurmountable in the same way. The first and second games more feel the second game because it's janky, but the first game because it's just, I think, tuned up to be really tough.

[00:43:48] Every cut scene. Every cut scene. I guess you could say this about any Devil May Cry, but I feel like every cut scene in the original game is ridiculous. Just absolutely ridiculous. Just the opening that clues you in so much, right? Because it's just like he's just sitting there in the shop. It's the logo of the game on the shop. He's just sitting there boots kicked up on his desk and Trish walks in there. I forget. Yeah. And it's just like, I don't know, man.

[00:44:18] They have like the wildest conversation. Hey, babe, what's going on? I don't even I don't even remember what he says. It doesn't even matter. But it's just like, man, what is this game? But the fact that it starts that way, it's like, okay, Capcom, I gotcha. We're in. We're in for some shit. You mentioned this cut scene earlier where Dante pulls himself through the sword. He gets impaled onto the ground by this, I guess, sentient sword pulls himself through it up and just like he takes the sword in his hand.

[00:44:48] He puts it up to the ceiling. I got it. And some lightning crashes through the conveniently placed stained glass ceiling right above him. Just so happens to be there every time I swear. Every time I see this, I appreciate it more. I legit think it's like one of my favorite scenes in a game. It's so stupid and over the top and edge lord and everything like 2001 is. It's just it's something to behold.

[00:45:17] Yeah, it's funny. I think that a lot of people give the credit for like the ridiculous nonsensical stories, which I love and are great. But I think that Devil May Cry did it first. And like the first game, I think, is ridiculous on like a smaller edge lord scale. The second game has no story, basically.

[00:45:35] And then the third game is where it like kicks into this wild narrative that like four and five follow suit on like three is just like it, you know, between the story of the brothers and how that game starts, you know, where he's eating pizza and like and we'll get get to that in more detail. But I just think that's kind of this franchise is bread and butter with the exception of two, which was a completely different team with a completely different goal. And yeah, I love those moments.

[00:46:03] I think that the the over the topness, the trash talking against the demon bosses that talk back to you and like the arguments and conversations you have with them, which also becomes a franchise staple is like demons yelling at Dante and telling him that he sucks and him talking trash and being confident, that kind of thing. I love it. It's just it's really good. And again, up to that point, it's very easy to forget. There just wasn't any other games doing stuff like this. It was so unique at the time.

[00:46:31] And I again, as we get further away from it, as more and more things are inspired by it, especially like you said, Bayonetta, we're used to her talking shit to bosses or saying witty things or whatever. And obviously, Kamiya just carried that right over from his, you know, basically creating the Devil May Cry franchise. I think, okay, so the reason why part of the reason why I should say the first game of the PS2 trilogy is my favorite.

[00:46:59] I just think it has an unbeatable atmosphere and like the spooky castle shit is the best way I can say it. I just really think that stuff is great. You're just going around this one fairly singular location. Sometimes you go outside to do a couple other things, but then, you know, and then it's like, oh, here's this crumbling castle bit. You got to jump across this and this and that with these cool camera angles and shit. But I love that stuff.

[00:47:26] But the interior of that place is just like, again, maybe because I was such a Resident Evil person. It just spoke to me or something. But I really do think that's why like out of anything, because Capcom is pretty remake happy and I'm glad they are. I would love for them to remake the first game. I really do think they could like with today's re engine. They could do something so cool with the first one and this particular atmosphere. I understand they'll probably want to do three or something and I whatever that'd be great, too.

[00:47:55] But I really would love the first one. Yeah, I mean, I think that the aesthetic is really strong here because it's familiar to Resident Evil fans, but also kind of tropey in that way. Like Spooky Castle story about demons and that you're a half demon and your dad was like the demon general, but then split off because he fell in love with a human. And it's just it's so over the top.

[00:48:18] And then I think also something that speaks to the aesthetics is the music is really kind of this has some of the best music in the franchise and like the mix of like atmospheric, like tonal songs for the background when you're running around versus the incredible speed metal, hardcore metal songs that pick it pick up when you start fighting.

[00:48:37] And the boss themes, like that those are strong in a lot of the games, but I think like it's because this game had some of the best and I love that stuff. And it really it's funny. You would think that those metal songs wouldn't necessarily fit with the like kind of haunted spooky aesthetic, but it really works for the fast paced frenetic combat that this game like kind of starts with and then kind of builds on and later entries in the franchise. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:49:06] In fact, I mean, okay, I'm not saying Devil May Cry invented this, but it is the first game where I remember where you're walking around and just enemies appear and the battle theme just like starts. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure something else did this before this, but Devil May Cry is the one that matters in this case because it's just like, whoa, what? And that battle theme is so iconic, like that's the song that plays because you know, like on a PS5 or PS4, you kind of go over the icons and it plays like something from the game or something.

[00:49:36] Sometimes it plays a DMC one battle theme. If you're on the HD trilogy icon, you know, they did that for a reason. Everyone knows that one and it's iconic. Like you said. Yeah, totally. And I think that kind of music dissonance is some is one of my favorite things about the entire franchise because it really kind of sets the tone. It's why I love like later series that I got into, like the Yakuza franchise, because I like the duology of the narratives in those games that the main story is really dramatic.

[00:50:05] And then the sub stories and side stories are always really goofy and comedic. And I think that's what I had that kind of duology ingrained in me in a game like Devil May Cry, where the story is kind of tongue in cheek and a little ridiculous, then has its serious moments. But the music also goes from like stoic and serious or creepy or atmospheric to like this bombastic battle theme that really gets your blood pumping. It's just it's just great stuff. It just I guess that's just a Kamiya thing.

[00:50:34] I mean, obviously Bayonetta is famous for its battle themes. Right. So, I mean, it's the exact same thing. You know, he just he likes to do that. But I think that's about I mean, like any other things you can think of, I think Devil May Cry has one of the best shotguns in video game history. It is so satisfying, the sound of it and just the way you could like, especially if you do it to a wraith and he just goes boom and it just like, you know, flies backwards. I love that thing.

[00:51:02] Once I got the shotgun, I never went back to any other gun. Yeah, I mean, the weapons, I think, are something that are also really key to Devil May Cry specifically is like you get the different weapons from that are like connected to the demon boss you just defeated. And so whether it's like, you know, fire boots or like ice gloves or whatever else that you get. I don't even remember which game had what. But like those different types of weapons, along with the different types of guns that you can get are always great.

[00:51:31] I think it's in maybe it's in three. You can get a rocket launcher. I don't think it was in this one, but I think in three you can get a rocket launcher or some kind of missile launcher that makes no sense and is not meant to be used often, but is like ridiculous and great. But like, yeah, the shotgun in the first game is really good. You know, I love, you know, your original weapon, the spart the the stinger, I think, is called the first sword is called and then you get Sparta eventually, which is like the demon blade, which is also a really awesome weapon that repeats in later games.

[00:52:01] Um, the the the uniqueness of like the variety of weapons you can get reminded me of like older RPGs where you gear up. But like I hadn't really played like a beat them up where you gear up like that, right? All weapons were temporary and a lot of the side scrolling beat them ups of back in the day. So this the fact that you can kind of gear up and fight your way through story moments with, you know, moment to moment in the game was kind of like felt revolutionary to me. I don't know if it was.

[00:52:27] I'm sure there are other games that did something like that, but it was definitely one of the earlier ones to do something like this. I think it is. I think in this like for this kind of game and for this kind of at the time unique battle system for sure. I would say so. And it's like you said, buying moves from a shop was definitely very like that was cool. Like when you when you buy I don't I forget what's in the first game at this point, but just like that that was very interesting. It's like, oh, wait, now I can add this to my repertoire.

[00:52:57] It's a very because like I think a game nowadays is more liable to be like, OK, now you can do this. And here's a tutorial how to do this. Now, back then it was just like, OK, I know how to do all the moves I have. I'm adding this one to it. And now I'm going to see how this works into or not works into like my style of play. And I just think that that uniqueness and like introducing stuff to yourself because of the moves that you buy. It's like, yeah, I don't I don't really care for this one. Oh, I really like this one.

[00:53:27] Same again, same thing with Bayonetta. But it just it's just the freshness of that. I think I think you're right. I think that was pretty revolutionary. Well, yeah, the more that we talk about it, I think this really this game was a fusion of Capcom's greatest hits in a way like it had the aesthetic design and setup of Resident Evil. It had defeating bosses to gain their weapon as your own, which is very Mega Man. And then like the input combos, memorizing combos and different inputs to execute different moves is very Street Fighter. Right.

[00:53:57] And whether that was conscious or not, I'm sure a lot of the developers who worked on this game worked, had their hands in parts.

[00:54:31] Of other parts of Capcom products. It's just like it almost doesn't feel like it fits, except it absolutely does because Devil May Cry. And it's it just feels like Kamiya just looked at the script. He's like, you know, it would be cool. And like here it is. It's again, it just almost it's like let's just here's the time for the ghost ship, I guess. Yeah. I mean, well, camp, I think being campy is a thing that I love. It's why I love Sonic Adventure one and two. Me too.

[00:55:00] I love you like cheesy thing. It's you know, I love the new Sonic movies because they're also really campy. I think, you know, unironic camp that's just meant to be goofy and wild and kind of over the top and fun and kind of unabashedly fun. I really love and like the first Devil May Cry for sure has that. And I think it's why I enjoy it so much and why I love the ridiculous story of it. Yeah. Well, yeah. So like, I guess that's a good way to wrap up talking about the first game.

[00:55:29] How much do you care about the story in Devil May Cry games? Because I don't really I like the ridiculous cut scenes, but I don't actually care that much what's happening or why. It's just how I am. I guess I guess in Devil May Cry five, they may it's much more of a story story like with with V and stuff like that. I really enjoyed V as a character. Great character. Right. So like, I guess in that game, I cared a lot more. But before that, not so much, at least for me. I mean, I think I like this.

[00:55:57] I cared about the story as much as like I enjoyed it. I don't know that. Like, I think the thing for me and we'll get to this in the next game, but I think the lack of any of this over the top stuff is where games in this franchise can fail. But for me, like, I really like how there's this narrative thread. It's really over the top. It's ridiculous. It reminds me of some of my favorite, like old school, like 70s and 80s cartoons and anime.

[00:56:22] And I think to that end, like I care about it in the sense that I enjoy it. I don't know that if it takes a weird turn or I don't understand it, that it really matters because mostly I just want to play the game. But I definitely enjoy it. Okay. Yeah. I just again, I don't like tune out completely or something because it's so visually interesting that of course I'm looking right. And then it's just like it's not that I completely don't care and like, okay, shut up. Stop talking.

[00:56:47] It's just like it's fine, you know, but I know there's people who get like really into the stories. I just don't happen to be one of them. That's just not necessarily what I'm there for. I'm here. I'm there for the spectacle. It's like you said about Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2. I love spectacle. Those are spectacle games, like my favorite ones. Right. So and I guess I could consider Devil May Cry up there spectacle. Maybe just the early 2000s had spectacle on lock, I guess. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:30] We need to, unfortunately, I'm sorry, Matt. We need to talk about Devil May Cry 2. At least at least somewhat. It is. It is. It is a necessity. Is it a necessity? It is a necessity. Unfortunately, I when this game came out, I saw the reviews first and the message words I belonged to at the time all said it sucked. And I was just like, OK, what's happening here? I guess I'll try it. How bad could it be?

[00:58:00] It's the sequel to this badass game. And when you first play it, it actually doesn't seem that bad. It takes a little bit. And that's why it's very interesting to talk about, in my opinion, because it's like on the surface, if someone were to just look at this, it's like, oh, this just seems like the first game. Right. How bad could it really be? It's not like that at all. When you when you get it in the hands, it's like, oh, no. And the problems are readily apparent.

[00:58:30] So tell me, I think you said you didn't play this right when it came out, right? No, I either didn't know it was coming out or just didn't know when it was coming out. But I do remember renting it from Blockbuster and being wholly disappointed with it. But I think the difference, like I have more context for how bad it is now, because at the time I just thought and you've you've said this before, too. It's a serviceable game like it's not for a lot of people. I don't think it's going to be the worst game they've ever played.

[00:58:58] I think that the reason it stunk and why I think at least for me, I disliked it so much is because it was devoid of all the things that I loved about the first game and dumbed down the things that it did carry over. And so it felt like it was made by someone who never played the first Devil May Cry. And it is a brand new team working on this and a different director. And so it is basically a different game. It's basically a new Devil May Cry one, which was sort of kind of the intent, I guess, like

[00:59:27] it was kind of meant to be like something that someone could just pick up and play having never played the first one because they wanted to sell more copies. And it just it's I think it's a it's a bizarre sequel more than it's even a bad mechanically sequel, you know? Yeah, it's it's the worst thing a game can be. It's boring. That is the absolute worst thing anything could any piece of art can be.

[00:59:51] I would say, you know, like last year I went to see Mega Opelous. I had to see it, right? Even though I knew it was going to be disaster, I knew I wasn't going to be bored. That's why I went to see it. It was not boring. It was terrible. It was absolutely terrible, but it was not boring, right? I'll go see Mega Opelous over something that bores me, you know? Yeah, no, totally. I think that's the biggest offense of this game is that it is bland and boring and basic.

[01:00:21] And I think if this was your first Devil May Cry and you had no context, you might think it's OK. Maybe. But like maybe. But but as anyone who's played any part of the first game and coming to this expecting more of that, like there's no like it's just an impossible. It would have been an impossible task, I think, to build on it to begin with. But there are times where I do wonder what this could have been right, because Devil May Cry 4 picks up from such a different place since 3 is a prequel that like they basically

[01:00:50] ignore the events of two, which I don't blame them. Like it's never it's never commented on like it's never built into the narrative. It just it's its own thing. And so that's why I kind of think of it as like a reboot of Devil May Cry only because it's just so isolated from everything else that came before or after. Yeah, it almost like it kind of like how like Star Fox 64 is just the same story as like the original SNES game. It's just told like it's expanded. You know what I mean?

[01:01:20] That's what a lot of Star Fox games are. They're just telling the same thing, I guess. Yeah, but this one even wasn't even doing that well. And like having the characters having a boring main villain like the enemy is not being fast or hard to like it just and it's also uninspired and uninteresting to look at. There were so many different like both dark and bright colors in the first game and like this contrast of light and dark. That's the whole story of the first game. And there was just none of that here.

[01:01:50] And then, of course, most importantly, Dante is not quippy. He has basically no personality. He's stoic. He's quiet. Like he has a you could probably write all of his lines from the whole game on like one page of paper. Like it's just it was astonishing coming from what one was and then what three will be. It just makes it even more of an anomaly. This character isn't Dante. If they had named this something else and it just happened to have another character with

[01:02:15] white hair and a different name, it might have done better because like I think the tying it to Devil May Cry when it was nothing like it really is the thing that hurts this game the most other than it being boring as hell. Yeah, you're right. It's it's not just you know, and you're right. Dante is not quippy. He's not himself. It's a completely different character, but I just think every character is just completely lethargic like every cut scene.

[01:02:42] I mean, it's like I said, they don't make any logistical sense in the first one sometimes, but at least they're like fun and they're respectful. This is just like they just kind of stand there. They seem confused and unfinished. It's like, okay, so like for the purposes of again for this podcast, I played as Lucia. The original game comes with two discs, two DVDs, right? There's a Dante disc and a Lucia disc. I never put in the Lucia disc ever in my life because I played as Dante. I was like, this sucks. So I'm just not even going to try the other one.

[01:03:11] And look, there's not much point in trying the other one. The campaign is barely different. There's like a couple different things, but it's not really. But the thing is, so I played as Lucia. The opening cut scene is her. She's just standing around these nondescript ruins. You don't know why she's there. Some guys attack and like Dante shows up and like kills all of them while she just stands there completely emotionless. Nobody's saying anything. He just shows up and kills them.

[01:03:38] And then Dante says like a couple words and she says a couple words and then like the game begins. It's like, okay. I, it just seems really dumb to introduce your new character by like having Dante do all the work. That's, that's the crime about it. I actually think Lucia is like a really good design. I think it's interesting, but it's just like she has absolutely nothing to do because again, in her own cut scene to start her game, Dante just shows up and kills everybody.

[01:04:07] It's like, okay, guys, what are you, what is this? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's one of those games where you get two campaigns for no reason. There's nothing special about them or the characters. It's, it's such a bummer because I feel like there was such great potential for this game, but it just feels like a world of missed opportunities.

[01:04:33] And like, again, the, the, the most of the, uh, the franchise is disavowed it. So it doesn't really affect anything, but yeah. And, and her campaign narratively, like, I think there are a few things that are different for the most part. I think like all the cut scenes are basically the same with just a different character in them more or less. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's like, cause there's like even that one CGI cut scene, like after a couple of levels, cause nobody has said a single word since that opening cut scene, which is barely a couple of words to begin with.

[01:05:03] And then like, there's a part where like, I don't know, she beats like this mini boss and then like something explodes and Dante just like whisks in the safer, like zip, kind of zip lines in. And whoop. And then they just stand on the, like the, the, the cliff of something and look at the wreckage for a few seconds. And it's like, that was it. That was the whole scene. It's like, what just happened? What, what did I just look at? You know, it just didn't make nothing made any sense, man. In a bad way. Yeah.

[01:05:32] I mean, I think a bad story wouldn't have killed this game, but the fact that also it doesn't play like the previous game, the it's, it's, it's longer than it needs to be. It's boring. It's ugly. Like all of these things I think are what, like, it's just a bad package. And again, it's, it's middling is I think worse. Cause at least really bad games have something worth, like we're struggling to talk about this game because it's not the worst game we've ever played. Yeah.

[01:06:00] It's just boring and, and middling. And I think sometimes that's worse because at least bad games, like a game, an indie game that came out not that long ago, 12 minutes is a bad game. It's just a bad game. But I, I did for time until I was tired of talking about it, did enjoy talking about it because of why it was bad and what made it bad. Game like this. It just is so ho-hum average garbage that there's less to say.

[01:06:30] It's just, we were at a loss of what to talk about. Yeah. There's just not a whole lot to say here. That's, that's the tough part about it. But I, you, you did mention a few things that are bad about it. And that's kind of the thing that we do on fine time. Cause it's like, we, we talk about a lot of bad games, but we love to dig into like, okay, what, what really is bad here? And I tried my best to come up with a few things. You mentioned a few of them already, but I think the one, the number one thing, at least for me.

[01:06:58] Is that the enemies are very lethargic and basically non-threatening. Like all the combo stuff you do in the first game matters because that game is difficult. And that's why it's important that that game is hard, at least somewhat challenging to the player, because you need to use those moves to get out of the situation that you're in. And devil may cry too. You can literally just stand there and just shoot them. Or if you're Lucio, Lucio, I play too much overwatch in my life.

[01:07:25] Lucia, you can just throw the knives at them, which is basically the equivalent of her gun, if you will. And just, they don't, they barely approach you. They have so much hits done and knock back when you shoot them. I swear to God, you could just stand in one place and shoot and beat the game. It's wild coming off the first game, which is so revolutionary with its combat and the way it challenged you to do stuff. This is just a complete, like, again, it's like you said, a new team having no idea what they're doing. Yeah.

[01:07:53] And like, I have to imagine there was some advising, but maybe not. I mean, famously, like Hideki Kamiya was never asked. They never approached him about making the sequel, even though the first game sold relatively well. An addendum to what I said earlier, because I wasn't sure how well it sold or if it sold well, but it did. But they still approached a different team and just had them make this game.

[01:08:14] And like, it's why he's advised on, I think, other games in the series, but he's never, I don't think he's directed another Devil May Cry game since because of getting kind of screwed over on that first one. Yeah. See, that's the thing. That's always the interesting thing about Devil May Cry 2. There was an original director that got replaced. Yeah. During the project, and it was replaced by Hideaki Itsuno, a name everybody knows, right? Right.

[01:08:41] As now the Devil May Cry guy after Kamiya laid the foundation. So, Itsuno's name is listed as director in Devil May Cry 2, but we know it's not his fault, right? Yeah. So, it's just, it's, it's, so actually, the Devil May Cry 2 Wikipedia has a lot of great information that has since come out about the game's development. And I want to read a couple pieces here because it's really, well, one, we don't really have much to say about this game.

[01:09:06] Two, I just think it's very interesting because a lot of the stuff I read for the first time, and I don't know how much you know about it, but, well, maybe the audience doesn't either. So, I'll read a couple things and we can talk about it. So, I'll start here because I did not know this. And I quote from Wiki, Devil May Cry 2 was originally set in New York City and starred a man in a green jacket instead of Dante, but that was changed due to a number of factors, including the September 11th attacks.

[01:09:34] And Ikono, I guess one of the people who worked on the game, I cannot find his full name here because it doesn't say. Anyway, Ikono found the team's approach wrongheaded. And I quote from him, looking back at the game's fundamentals, like the visual and overall designs, we didn't take the parts of DMC1 that the players really loved into account well enough. So, the second game felt very artificial. I think our attitude was a little too much, we're going to make it how we want to.

[01:10:03] There wasn't enough recognition that two was only happening because of the success of one. End quote. That's basically what you just said. And that's very evident. I'm glad he said that because it's like, yeah, that's exactly it. This is made by a team who is having absolutely no regard for the game that came before it. Yep. Yeah, they wanted to make their own game. And, like, again, I think there's a world where if this wasn't a Devil May Cry game, it could have found some audience or success.

[01:10:29] But the fact that it's connected to a franchise only in name, basically. Like, a lot of people like to give DMC shit. And, you know, having revisited it a handful of years ago, I think it's not. You mean the 2000, I'm sorry, you mean the 2013 game, right? Yes. Okay. I think it unfairly gets a lot of crap because it's so different. Is it good? Hard to say. Is it different? For sure. But it's still trying to do something, right? There's a narrative arc. They do something different with Dante and Virgil. Like, there is love there handed by Ninja Theory.

[01:10:59] I don't hate it. Yeah, it's fine. But this, this is, I think, the bigger offender and doesn't get as much hate as it should over DMC because it's just, it's as if they were given the notes and purposely disregarded them. Like, they went the opposite direction in so many ways. It's almost as if it were intentional, whether it were or not. Yeah, it's just, you're right. You're absolutely right. I agree with everything there.

[01:11:27] I, okay, here's another money quote for me. I guess there was six months ago before the game was supposed to come out. And I'll quote here from Wiki. Studio One director Hideaki Itsuno had finished work on Capcom versus SNK2, absolute all time banger, and was doing the early conception on what would become Dragon's Dogma. I did not know that game started way back when. Wow. Yeah. Gee, I did. I really did not. So that was news to me, even as a Capcom head.

[01:11:55] I'm not a Dragon's Dogma person, so maybe I just never looked into it. Well, you should be. Those games rule. You should play them. I want to try two. I did not. I tried one back in the day, and I did not get into it. I actually do want to try two. I've seen people play it. I'm like, it seems like fun, you know? Anyway, since Itsuno appeared to be quote unquote idle, his boss ordered him entrance into Team Devil. Team Devil was a team who did the Devil May Cry stuff.

[01:12:22] Itsuno was asked to reorganize the project in the supplementary role, which effectively meant taking over leadership as upper management saw it as directorless. And so I'm going to quote from Itsuno. There was a lot of drama over my replacing the old director, and I have nothing but mad memories about that part in particular. He laughs. But basically, they said that nothing was getting done and needed to change. The scenario hadn't been written.

[01:12:47] The cut scenes had yet to be shot, and they hadn't decided what to do about Dante's Devil trigger. They had determined at least that the stinger attack was essential, so at least they had someone who was going to take care of that. He laughs. But none of the other attacks have been worked on at all. End quote. Isn't that crazy? The game's coming out in six months, and they don't have a scenario? What the hell is going on? That's wild to hear.

[01:13:15] It seems like the creation of this game was kind of doomed from the start, and I have no idea on all the particulars, but it really just feels like it was tossed to a team. And they were like, all right, I don't know. We'll do something with it. And then just kind of blindly worked on it with no oversight. It's wild. It's crazy. I'm really struggling, and I don't think I can. Can you say anything good about Devil May Cry 2? Not even the music. I can't even think of a piece of music that I like.

[01:13:43] I guess I think Lucy is a cool character, even though she doesn't like a cool design. I can't say she's a cool character because nobody's a character in this game. But at least there's that. Yeah, I'll say that Dante and Lucy's designs are cool. Like, he looks really different from the first game, but I think his design in this game is still cool. But yeah, they're not characters. They're mannequins, basically. And so that's the best thing I can say.

[01:14:09] Like, I honestly would love and like, if you Google Lucia online, you can find like tons of folks speculating about what if she comes back and don't make cry six. I think that'd be awesome if they brought her back and like gave her a real arc, made her a playable character again or something like I think that would be a lot of fun. But, you know, beyond that, like, yeah, I can't really think of anything else nice to say about this game. I really can't either, because usually because that's my thing about like, again, going back to Mega Man X7, the other bad Capcom game for 2003.

[01:14:39] It's like that music slaps. That music is fucking great. I love that soundtrack. Right. At least I could say that at least about Sonic 2006. I could say the music is great. Right. I can't say that about this. I can't pick out anything, you know, it's just, man. Yeah, I think, again, we've ripped on it so much.

[01:15:00] But really, I think what really struck me, even at the time where I knew something was going to go wrong, again, at a time where I was like less critical, this kind of stuff, was the areas were so wide open. It felt like you were running down like an eight lane highway at all times, like every, every, like every place. Did you get that? It's just like, because I get it. The first game, like I said, spoopy castle. You're in these very confined places or whatever. But like this was just like so big.

[01:15:29] I'm remembering a part where you like fight some tanks that are like shooting bullets at you and you have to like, you're traveling so far and you move so slow to get to these tanks that are shooting at you. And it's just not exciting. I don't know. It's just the wide open space is bad, I think, is what I think about most. I think that the Devil May Cry and a lot of character action games are at their best when there's kind of a hallway, like you can have open rooms, but for the most part, you want to be going in a line to get to the next thing, right?

[01:15:58] Because they're meant to be pretty linear. Character action games don't work with open world. And like this was an open world, but I think the stages were so big that you just kind of got lost in the space in a way that like, again, not to keep comparing to other things, but like Bayonetta, the early city levels and stuff where you can like explore a bit and then you're funneled into like the next path or the staircase or whatever. Like, I think that's a more solid way to do that. But this was, yeah, it was kind of just aimless. Yeah, aimless. I guess that's all I got to say.

[01:16:27] We're sequel of all time. That's I mean, I feel like it is. I can't think of anything worse. I know it's a tough. I know it's a tough question. Think about it if you want, but I can't think of anything worse than Devil May Cry 2. Yeah. Worst like number two. Worst number two entry, I think. Yes, absolutely. Worst like follow up game. No, because Sonic 06 still exists, I think. Yeah. But like worst second game in a franchise, I think probably. Yes, without a doubt.

[01:17:19] Devil May Cry 3. As we mentioned before, Hideaki Itsuno, after this point, after doing Devil May Cry 2, he became basically the Devil May Cry guy after that. Because, you know, fighting games aren't really happening at Capcom anymore. Like you said, he did Capcom versus SNK 2 and a lot of like other 90s and early 2000s shit. But that was kind of that era was kind of over for Capcom because arcades weren't really a thing anymore. We're starting to not become a thing. So he just started working on Devil May Cry more.

[01:17:49] And I'm really glad since Capcom essentially made him put his name as director on 2, I'm really glad he got another shot to do something great. Because obviously that's what Devil May Cry is. Devil May Cry 3 is rather. Maybe we can start there. I want to go right for the gusto here. Devil May Cry 3 is considered one of the best games of all time. It's also considered by most people the best Devil May Cry game.

[01:18:17] Do you agree with this? Is this also your opinion? No. I think it's one of the best. And it's definitely a highlight for the franchise. It's definitely better than one. But for me, 5 is still my favorite. I really just like all the stuff they did. How much more over the top it got. But, I mean, 3 is where the series really found its legs. 1 is good, not great. 2 is bad. And then 3 is excellent.

[01:18:47] And I think that also the play to go backwards and establish Dante's history. Create Virgil and bring him into the story of his brother. I think it's hinted at in Devil May Cry 1. But there's no word on Virgil. I don't even know if he's mentioned by name. I think he is. I feel like he is. Don't quote me on that. But I'm pretty sure he's mentioned in the first one, yeah. But he's barely there, whereas he's an established character in this.

[01:19:16] And I like how they kind of hit the reset button. So anyone who had never played a Devil May Cry game could jump in with this because it was a prequel. And third entry is being a prequel is kind of common in the PS2 era, the more that I think about it. Because, you know, Metal Gear Solid did the same thing exactly. And I think that it's a strength for this game. So, yeah, I don't think it's the best, but I think it's one of. I, yeah. See, it's tough because I always feel like such a contrarian.

[01:19:44] I guess I often am on the show. But it's just like, yeah, I definitely, again, out of these three, I definitely like the first one the most out of the PS2 trilogy. But I was really surprised to go back and see that, like, the accolades of this game. It's really, like, hailed. I mean, I don't know about, like, Metacritic scores or whatever. But, like, if you look at all the reviews, this is, like, getting tens out of tens and, like, just from everybody. And it was just like, wow. You know, and I, you know, I get it. Right?

[01:20:13] And I really feel good for, again, now that I know the whole story, I feel really good for Itzano that he really got to just, he had to do the shittiest project of all time. Now he has this, like, triumph. You know, I think that's great. Yeah, I agree. I think also, like, games that are critically acclaimed that are 10 out of 10s. Like, I'm not always in agreement with those games. Sometimes I am, right? But, like, people feel like Elden Ring is the best game, one of the best games ever made. And I liked Elden Ring and my time with it. But I don't think it's the best game ever made.

[01:20:41] Because I think also your favorite game and the best game are different, too. And also what is best? You know, all of that nonsense. Right. But this is definitely a benchmark for character action games for the Devil May Cry franchise at this point. Because if this wasn't a success, probably the franchise would have died here. I can't imagine if there was another failure, they would have kept making them. Yeah. And it could have fell victim to the syndrome, like Dreamcast syndrome. Right?

[01:21:11] That system was going to fail no matter what. Sega had already pissed everybody off. Right? 32X, Saturn, or whatever. All the false starts over the last years. Everybody was done with Sega. Nobody was going to trust them. Dreamcast is incredible. Has an incredible library. Had bangers up and down. Every single month, stuff coming out. It didn't matter. People had eyes straight past it for PS2 or GameCube or whatever else was coming out next. People were done with Sega. Sega. And it sucks because it's a great system.

[01:21:40] And that could have happened to Devil May Cry 3. It could have been like, well, Devil May Cry 2 sucks so much, we're not even going to try anymore. And that was me. Like I said up front, I didn't try Devil May Cry 3 until after 4 got me back in the fold. Because I was just, 2 made me so mad. I was just like, okay, whatever. I don't care if it's good. I'm not playing it right now. But I'm glad I eventually went back and did that.

[01:22:02] And when I did, even though I played it way later, you can see that Devil May Cry 3 is like, now we're in what? 2005, right? You get mid-2005. We know exactly what we're doing with the PS2 hardware. And Devil May Cry 3 might be the best looking game on the system, I think. This game looks insane. I can't believe it. Even now. Do you agree? Like, it's crazy what they did with this.

[01:22:30] Yeah, I know you're talking about Final Fantasy X being one of the best looking games on the console. And it is. But yeah, this is, especially considering the style, the colors, the design of the game and the characters. Yeah, it's one of the most impressive looking games on the PS2. And I think even if you don't play the HD remasters that are on the PlayStation, if you play the originals on the PS2, it still looks sharp. It still looks good.

[01:22:56] And it's one of those classic games that I think feels like it hasn't aged a day because it was at the top of its class for the tail end of that console. Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned even you can see it from the beginning. You mentioned the, again, iconic opening scene. I guess Dante's eating pizza. Uh-huh. Right? And he gets attacked by demons. Of course he does, as one does, right? And it's just like, I remember the pizza looking so modern. It's like, wait, they actually modeled the pizza?

[01:23:26] You can't have those polygons to spare on PS2. What are you doing? You have some real pepperoni on here? It was impressive. It was really good to see that. Especially, you know, he knocks the pizza up in the air, catches in the boxes, or he can't drop his pizza. That would really piss him off, right? It's just, they got that spirit back, I guess is what I'm trying to say, that the first game had where you had that baller opening cutscene with Trish or whatever, and it was wild. They're like, okay, we're going to signal to you right away that this game isn't going to be trash.

[01:23:55] Yeah, are we past the stage of being able to make references to how Stella got her groove back? And how this is that moment for Delma, why am I showing my age a little bit? Oh, no, we're never past that age on fine time. We can always reference how Stella got her groove back. But like, yeah, this is, this showed the world that these games still can sell well, that this franchise still has something in the, you know, in the gas tank.

[01:24:20] And like all of the refinements and additions to this game have stuck with the franchise. Like, especially when controlling Dante, a lot of what was introduced in this game is the baseline for everything that came next. Yeah, it's just, it's so, again, I love that Itano really just, it's like, okay, I need to, I want my chance at redemption. You could see it.

[01:24:46] It feels like almost like a last chance game, almost like a, a fire emblem awakening or like a, you know, where, you know, something's like, I, we, we have to do great this time. We have to, right. It has that attitude. Totally. Yeah. 100%. Um, I really, so, okay. Super Mario brothers three is my favorite game of all time. My absolute favorite game of all time. That's always my answer.

[01:25:10] And it's because it's in part because the refinement of ideas, right? You have, you have two Mario's before it, two and a half Mario's, and we're not going to go into it. And like you get, by the time you get to Mario three and then they made it in Japan in 1988, you're like, okay, we know what we're doing. We're making this for experienced players. They've already played the first two. Mario three has a difficulty curve where they assume you've played the other ones.

[01:25:39] And I think that's like, that's that, that in part is why I love the level design in that game. Devil may cry three almost feels like the same thing to me in a way where it's like, okay, you played the first two. Hopefully not so much of the second one where it's like, we're just going to, we know, we know what this, we established this type of battle system. Now everyone's used to it. We're going to go in there and we're just going to give you like maximum devil may cry. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. It's funny.

[01:26:09] You bring up Mario three because a Sonic three and knuckles is one of my favorite Sonic games of all time. And one of my favorite games of all time for the same reason, right? They took the formula that worked at Sonic one and two refined it within an inch of itself, added to other playable characters who also had different reversal options and made one of the best 2d platformers in history. And I think that don't let cry is working in that same thing.

[01:26:35] I mean, even you talk about refinement of ideas, the battle styles, which now are just how Dante controls in every game after this, like give, not just having one set of moves, but allowing you to play more defensive, more offensive, more ranged, more, uh, you know, I don't even know what to call trickster of all of them.

[01:26:56] But like giving, giving, I think it's like more like, um, there's more strategy to the trickster gameplay and like giving those four battle styles and then adding those weapons and having the weapons have different effects in the battle styles or how they come off or whatever. Like it just, it really was a way to kind of layer this game and make it more challenging, but more interesting as well. And avoiding the faults and the pitfalls of the second game. Absolutely.

[01:27:25] And just, yeah, that's, see, that's the thing actually. When you put it that way, it's true because it's like, yeah, they, they went back to the first game. Okay. What worked? They also learned what went wrong with the second game. You have to learn what goes wrong to what not to do. And you feel both of those things in devil may cry three, three for sure. Um, I'm trying to remember, did I use gunslinger? I have, okay. I, I really like to shoot guns and devil may cry. I understand. That's like not how you do the most damage or whatever, but I really, I don't know why.

[01:27:54] Again, maybe it's just the shotgun from the first game or something or whatever. That is always like my thing. I think I did a lot of gunslinger in, uh, in devil may cry three, although, you know, mixing it up is obviously good. And I'm glad that they did this again. They're, they're not worried about over overwhelming the player because they're assuming the player knows what they're doing. Usually in games like this, introducing four battle styles like that might be like, whoa, right? What are we, what are we talking about? I guess maybe to a person who has only played devil may cry three, it's the first time they might be a little overwhelmed.

[01:28:24] But I think at that point though, there had been enough other games, maybe not necessarily of this type. I think people are used to it now in this, in this new found 3d era. So yeah, I'm glad they went kind of all out with that. You're right though about trickster. I don't understand what is happening. I really don't.

[01:28:58] So I guess I should mention this devil may cry three came out in two forms. So the original was released in March, 2005, but then there was a special edition in January, 2006, like less than a year after it came out, which added a few things. I think it added a difficulty motor to or rather rebalance them. There was like a, what is it called? A gold mode or something where it's like you have like you have unlimited retries or something. I think that's what happens. Yeah.

[01:29:28] And then you can play as Virgil. Yep. Can you, okay. I don't know. I, this might, this might be my contrarian part of the, of the podcast. I do not understand the appeal of Virgil at all. I never have, I don't hate him. I don't think he's a piece of shit or like this, this character is annoying. I just don't, I get like people have such a hard on for Virgil proverbially for Virgil. And I just, are you a virtual person?

[01:29:57] I just, I, I don't know. I don't get it. I mean, I think he's a good villain. You know, I still prefer Dante. I think Dante is too close to the heart for me of a character that I really liked, but I think Virgil is an interesting villain. I think that he, you know, and has how he's gone on to affect the games. That's how I'll, I'll say that. So I don't spoil anything in four or five. Right. I think that like, he is definitely an interesting villain. I think it's, it's because he's stylish. He's, you know, soft spoken.

[01:30:26] He's got this confidence, confidence in this gravitas that like a good villain has. Like I think of Albert Wesker also, right? Like that slick back hair, that stature, that confidence. I think that's why folks like Virgil. But yeah, I mean, playing as him was a lot of fun. So I had the special edition of this game. I didn't get it as soon as it came out. I got it after the greatest hit special edition came out. And so I had the one that was a little easier and had Virgil and I loved it. I played the game through his Dante. I played it through his Virgil.

[01:30:56] I like score chased like back when I had too much free time and not enough games to play. I definitely did all that stuff in these kinds of games. But yeah, I, I really, I liked playing as Virgil. My preference was still Dante, I think. Okay. Yeah. I played a little bit as Virgil and I just, you know, I guess I'm also, I should say, I'm not really the type of person to play as like the other character in something. Whether it's like, okay.

[01:31:22] You know how like most Castlevania games, especially from the 2000s, like now you can play as Julius or something. It's like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to do that. Right. And I love Julius Belmont. He's like my favorite Castlevania character, but Donna sorrow was not made for him. Okay. I'm sorry. Like I'm not, I'm, I don't really want to do this or Aria sorrow, I guess also. But yeah, that's, so that's not really my thing. So like the Virgil playthrough was never going to be something I was going to be into, whether I liked the character or not.

[01:31:48] But wait, in the first, in the first game, can't you do a Trish playthrough? Am I crazy? Yeah. Okay. You can unlock Trish as a playable character in the first game. Yeah. Okay. I don't think that there's a, like a story thing. I think you could just play through the stages as Trish and maybe the story still happens as normal, but yeah, you can play through the first game as Trish. Yep. That's going to be weird. Everything just happens anyway. She's just running through. I did like that kind of whimsy back then. It's like, okay, we get it. We know we're not going to make a whole story for Trish, but just here, here, play the

[01:32:18] game as her. Um, I mean, honestly, I think that's, I mean, I really, as we said, it's hard to talk about a bad game and devil may cry too. It's hard to talk about an all timer and devil may cry three, even though I don't necessarily feel that way. I just think this game is so well known that it's just like, you know, shit, what else do I say about devil may cry three? It is, it is what it is. And it has, Oh, you know what? I do want to talk about this.

[01:32:41] I think I definitely prefer the demeanor of Dante in the first game as well, just because man, it's really over the top in three. I get it. He's younger. He's like, whatever, but he, they dialed it up to 11. He's really wisecracking as he's like shooting the guns. He's literally like, yeah, woohoo. And like, literally like cheering as he's doing this. And it's like, okay, man, tone it down. Like, it's just, did you feel that at the time?

[01:33:11] It was just so amped up to 11. I think it catered to me and my fandom. So I really enjoyed it. I think it's funny. I think he's really stoic in the first game with some snark. And then in the third game, he's really snarky with not much stoicism. And I think four and five, though we're not here to talk about those games kind of balances that and kind of pulls those together. I mean, showboats a ton in the, in the fifth game, but like, yeah, I think this was kind of a reset.

[01:33:37] So then when they mix it with the more mature version, they could find a balance of like him just being a quirky character, but I didn't mind it. I like it. I think it's kind of brash and like over the top. And again, I was a young teenager, young adult when this game came out. So like, it was right in my wheelhouse. So like, I was into it. Right. I wasn't not into it. I shouldn't say I didn't like, like it or anything. It was just like, kind of like, all right, it's, it's a lot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, man, I, again, I'm so glad I went back to this game.

[01:34:07] I'm glad I went back to the franchise. I could have said I could have fucked off forever after, after two, but man, it's just what a, what a trilogy, you know, before we got recording, we were talking a little bit about how you don't really see a whole trilogy on a system anymore. Yeah. And I think that's really special because like games take too long to make for a variety of reasons that we all know, but I'm just glad that like, you know, you could look at

[01:34:34] this and it's like, wow, see the refinement and the quick development of like, like I said, Devil May Cry three is like one of the best looking PS2 games, if not the best looking, and you could see the development through the other ones. It's like, okay, before, you know, you don't know the hardware as well, and now you do. That's something I kind of miss, I think. Right. Where it's like, as a, as a generation goes on, you get like some more like, yeah, we kind of juice systems nowadays, but it's not like before they really had to like squeeze

[01:35:01] it and in short order, you know, where it's like, you look at a GameCube game from 2001 versus like 2006 and you might be kind of like, whoa, I don't think we really get that or do we? Am I, is that a weird perception of mine? No, no. I mean, like, and I think I pointed it out because, you know, this idea that you could get, you know, and it also, like I mentioned off air Mass Effect, the Mass Effect trilogy and how those, those were all on the Xbox eventually also on the PS3, but like Mass Effect three

[01:35:28] looks so much better than the first Mass Effect, like leaps and bounds. And it's the same console generation. We just don't get that anymore. You know, I think about we, you know, we've alluded to our love of four and five as well, but like four was on the Xbox 360 PS3 and then five was, I think it was last gen. It was PS4, Xbox one. And so like we may get through this console generation without another devil may cry, but I hope we do get one, especially now that Dragon's Dogma 2 is out.

[01:35:57] But it's just kind of wild to me that a series that could like the, like three of the games were on one console and now three of the games are on three consoles. Right. Right. And that kind of seems to just be the trajectory for a lot of games. You know, I think about, um, Dragon Age one and two, which are both on the 360 and then the Inquisition is the gen after that. And then, you know, now of course the veil guard all this time later, it's just kind of a bummer that we can't have everything in one place in the same way.

[01:36:27] You think about Mario brothers one, two, and three also same console. Right. Um, but then it became very common for Mario to only have one game per console. Yeah. We was kind of the exception to that, right? The, we got two Mario games, but sunshine was the only GameCube game. 64 was the only, you know, 64 game. It's just interesting to me that that's, and it's because development time has taken longer among many other things. And, uh, it's kind of a bummer, but also it's kind of fun to see the jump in graphical style

[01:36:55] from, from, uh, release to release. Um, yeah. Which also now it only being one console per game is less. Like I think about Spider-Man for PS4 versus Spider-Man nearest Miles Morales and Spider-Man two. And like the, the, they don't look that different from each other other than them changing Peter's face for no reason, which I would. That was weird. That is still weird. But like, you know, I think it is kind of cool that now game, like you look at Dante

[01:37:22] and five and Dante and three and Dante and one, and they all look completely different. And it's not just because they got redesigns. It's because, or even Dante and four to five is because graphics just got better. And so they took those character models and improve them and added more detail. And eventually you add enough detail that it looks different from what came before. Absolutely. Cause yeah, four looks like a Xbox 360 ass game. Like, I don't even mean that as majority of this is just what it looked like. That was 2008. And you're going to run this at 60 frames a second.

[01:37:52] It's going to look how it's going to look right. You can only do so much five is such a, I mean, obviously we're in the RE engine era, right? Yeah. And it's just like, it looks like a completely different thing. Yeah. So the, the step up there and obviously the passage of time there was a lot, but actually, so maybe this is a good way to end this whole thing. Cause I have a question for you since this came up in the, it took a while to start to do this episode.

[01:38:18] So something of things happened at Capcom that I think we should factor in here. So as we said, after the success of DMC three, uh, it's no one on to do four and five, but then he left Capcom at the end of last year. He's gone now. Yeah. On the other hand, Hideki Kamiya is working with Capcom again at the game awards. They announced they're doing Okami, right? And Hideki Kamiya is back to direct with this independent studio Clovers.

[01:38:48] I cannot believe that's a thing. That's wild. Now that all the doors are open, could Kamiya potentially do like a DMC six? I wonder, like, what do you think of that? That's actually a possibility. Now he could return to the franchise that he basically started. I mean, that would be cool, but my concern would be he's so far removed from the frame. I mean, he's advised on stuff. And of course, because he created a lot of these characters, but I think it like, it has

[01:39:17] potential to be really interesting, but it also has potential to drift more towards his other action games that he did with Platinum and with Clovers and Clover rather. Right. And like, so I just, I worry that it would get lost in the weeds, but maybe not. I mean, he's really smart and he knows what he's doing, obviously. And so I think it would be cool to see him come back to the franchise. I am curious what that would look like. But I don't know if I'd be excited or not, just because he's a very particular person, Kamiya.

[01:39:45] And, you know, I just don't know if him coming back to this franchise that he's been not the director of for so long would be a boon or a detriment. I'd like to believe it would be a boon, but I'm not sure. I'm curious to see if that could happen, because I don't know who you asked to helm Devil May Cry 6 at this point. I mean, there are other people who make character action games. I mean, I would ask John Johannes, who led Hi-Fi Rush, because he made an incredible character action game, you know? Okay. I've yet to play that, by the way.

[01:40:15] I would love to. But like, you know, definitely like Kamiya and Itzino are like the people who make these games. There are others that have come out, but they are like the kings of that castle. So I am curious to see if neither of them who did. And that doesn't mean that a relative unknown or unknown to us at least couldn't come in and direct the hell out of a Devil May Cry 6. It's hard to say. Yeah.

[01:40:40] Um, I, the only reason why I think he'll be good, we, he would be good for this Kamiya is because of Bayonetta. If he went to Platinum and just did whatever, I'd be like, okay, he's been away from this for so long. Again, Bayonetta is like my favorite, one of these types of games, one of my favorite action games ever, if not my favorite. So like, maybe that's just, maybe just for me, that's just the way I, you know, I would really love Timber to return to the scene of the crime. But I just love that the possibility is there.

[01:41:10] I love that we can even talk about this, right? I think that's, that's really cool that they're working together again and that we could see other revivals of other Capcom franchises. Look, I never thought we would get another Okami game. I only played the first one for the first time when it went to the switch, but like knowing that the door is open for Okami is like, I'm going to be shouting from the rooftops for a new beautiful Joe. We deserve beautiful Joe three. And like, it's this era of games. That's another one I mentioned, although I think I played that one on the GameCube, which

[01:41:39] so I didn't mention it when we're talking about PS2, but like this era of games was great. And so the fact that we have a double make cry five, that we're going to get a new Okami and a new on a musha and you know, whatever else, like all of these games that are coming back doesn't always work out when these franchises are rebooted, but I'm excited because I like PS2 as PS2 games and it's nice to return to that a little bit and see that stuff.

[01:42:04] The fact that Tokyo extreme racer is on the verge of coming back has me so excited as a, that is a PS2 S era of fucking, I mean, like, look, I played the, I played them on Dreamcast before that. So I guess that kind of counts as the same generation, sort of wherever Dreamcast sits in the whole thing. But yeah, that, that to me just screams PS2, especially the way they look. I'm we're back, baby. We are back. My early twenties are back. I tell you. Well, shit.

[01:42:32] Thank you for joining me and talking about devil may cry. Finally, we did it. We came, we saw, we conquered. Thank you for having me. I'm a big time fan of fine time. I really love the show. It's been a blast to listen to and I'm excited to have been on it. Um, maybe someday I'll get to actually talk to the other two hosts, but for now, fuck them because they didn't want to talk about devil may cry. No, no. Fuck them. Steven, Kevin, you know what you did? Yeah. Get away. You could have talked devil may cry with me all this time and you didn't. Okay. So there you go. You know.

[01:43:01] All right. Thanks for joining me. Thank you audience for joining us. Check again, check the description of this podcast to find Matt's links on either social media or to their podcasts and we'll see you next time. Bye. We'll see you next time on, on, on, on fine time.