Immortals of Aveum

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of The Period of Bonus Podcast. I'm

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: one of your hosts, Cameron Warren, and I'm joined, as always by the Pixel Professor, Jacob

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Price. Jake, it's August 1st, 2024. How the heck are you doing?

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of games, I'm playing a few games that I'm really enjoying in terms of home

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: life. I shouldn't say that. Everything's great with my family, but we discovered...

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Jake is not getting divorced. Not getting divorced. Happily married. Our kids are great.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: They just got done with soccer camp, actually. Nice.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Soccer camp is the greatest thing to have ever happened to me. Don't get me

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: wrong, love my kids, but I'm the primary caretaker during the summer months

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: because I teach and so my teaching load is lighter. I'm working from home a

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: lot except when I have to go into the classroom. My kids don't have school,

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: which means they spend all day with me, which is fun. We get to do a bunch of

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: really fun things. But I've hit the point of summer where school for them starts

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in a few weeks and I'm like, dude, I'm ready. We're ready, man. I'm ready. So

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: soccer camp was a revelation, man. They just go there all morning. I get

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: a ton done at home. That's what you want. They get tired out and so they

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: go to bed without fighting. That's what you want. You know what? The East Coast

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: parents, they're doing it right. They're sending their kids off to summer camp

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: for the whole summer. School gets out. They're like, hey kid, go to summer camp.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you when school is back and then they come back and they go back

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to school. You know what I'm saying? That's the East Coast life.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the East Coast life. That's also the wealthy life, right? That's the

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: upper middle class to upper class East Coast family life. Your kid goes to summer

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: camp for like two months. Yeah, they go to like sailing camp or something in the

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: finger likes of New York. If you're an East Coast person listening to this

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: episode, we'd like to hear from you because I just want to let you know

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that is not a thing on the West Coast. No, not at all. That's not

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00]: something that people do. California, Oregon, Washington,

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Utah, Idaho. They ain't going to summer camps for like two months. It's like a week maybe.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. In their day camps, right? No one's...

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: No one's like all the movies you see like, you know, like parenthood where you're like,

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going off to camp mom for six weeks. No, that doesn't, that's not a thing.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody has that out here. Although my kids watched heavyweights for the first time

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and first of all, they loved it. They love heavyweights.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I was watching it with them and I was thinking, dude, no one does this, right?

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never actually... No, they do. I've never met anybody who's done this, but I'm from the West Coast.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You lived on the East Coast for a little bit. Did you know families that...

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we were way too broke to know families that did this.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Lower socioeconomic station of the... Yeah, yeah. We lived in a part of town where they had to put

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: up notices because the water was polluted enough. The drinking tap water was polluted enough

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that the city sent out warnings saying that if you were pregnant within this time frame

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that you needed to go have a medical checkup. So we were not in that aspect.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: America is a big country, folks. I don't know if you know this.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Dude, yeah. Anyway, so we have leak in the basement and we think we've got it all sorted out.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And so crossing my fingers that there's no more leaks into the basement tonight.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, stuff like that's the worst. We've had stuff like that with leaks and water. We have

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: last year just a water come out of it. I don't... Nobody knows why this happens.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You just come down and you just got water leaking everywhere.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: My brother, the other week, like a couple months ago, his neighbor side swiped his car

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the day before he was supposed to go on a road trip. Had to go buy a brand new car.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Insurance wouldn't cover it or wouldn't cover all of it. He lost like 10 grand.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, life is life. Dude.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Just life sometimes kicks you when you're down. Yeah. That is...

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Usually comes in threes. So be on the lookout. Come on. Please tell me this has been number

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: three. Actually we had a lot of crap happen in June. Maybe this is a new cycle of threes for

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: us. Yeah, you're in the clear. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I got to apologize.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We did not... We missed last week so we're off our normal schedule. Apologize for missing that.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to be honest with you guys. We were playing pickleball. So I just want to

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: feel that out there. The plan was to re-record the episode and then things just got crazy.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Last weekend was super... Last week was super crazy for me. Multiple family members in town

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: from different sides of the family. Anyway, life got crazy. You know what? To be honest with you,

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: it's summertime. There's really not a lot of games at this current moment anyway. Like new stuff.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes and no. Well, there's about to be a lot but... Yeah. And of course,

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually just... If you subscribe to the Indie Pass on our Patreon, I just finished doing

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: my final edits on this newsletter that's coming out. August 15th is another massive day for indie

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: games. I think I have something like four indie games listed that are coming on August 15th.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But like I said, I'm really excited about the games I'm playing right now. Some of them are new

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of them are not. I started Dungeons of Hinterberg and... Yes. I forgot. Yes, that

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: did. I'm sorry. Why do I say there's no games coming out? I forgot we had Dungeons of Hinterberg and...

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: My goodness, what was the other big one, Jake? There's... The three that are on my mind were

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Dungeons of Hinterberg, Magical Delicacy, and then that one hybrid one that people were really enjoying.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Kumitsu... Shoot. Yeah, that's it. Kunitsu, Gami. Yes. People are really enjoying that and

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm feeling... Yeah, it's like a very funky, very unique tower defense game that's on Game Pass.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Dungeons of Hinterberg is great. I'm actually the puzzle. You do these mini dungeons and they

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: have like think 3D Zelda puzzle design where you have to use specific abilities to navigate them

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's some combat moments. Dude, the puzzling in that game is freaking amazing. I have

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: just totally blown away. All right. Super good. I've been playing Magical Delicacy, which quick shout

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: out. So there's actually going to be a special indie impressions episode on Magical Delicacy and

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I have invited on Cater Blossom. This is somebody whose opinions on indie games I really like.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll be discussing that. But the funny thing about Magical Delicacy

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is that I am banging my head against the wall. There's so much about this game that I really like

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to do a lot of cooking and crafting and I always feel like I have the absolute wrong

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: ingredients for all the recipes I need to be making to progress. And so it's just like I'm

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: stumbling forward through that game and it hurts a bit. It hurts a little bit.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I need it. I need I still need to try that one out. We've been playing.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't been playing much to be honest. XCOM 2 going, dude. I've been meaning to ask you actually.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: XCOM 2 is still going. It did slow down a little bit like I said, it's been

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: crazy times in terms of busyness kind of jumping around games. Nothing's like really grabbing

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: me at the moment super well. I'm still dabbling in XCOM 2, still dabbling in Sandrock.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Wanted to open Dungeons & Pinterbird the other night but just it just didn't end up happening.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's that it's that time of it's that time of the summer. Things are a little slow for

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: me on the gaming side. I need something to kind of jolt my system awake. There's lots

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of stuff coming down the pipe so I'm hoping something will will get me get my system

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: pushed away. The other thing that that made me wake up a little bit is this is I can say

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I can make this announcement. I can't give any context obviously but as you probably saw in the

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: news, Bungie had some pretty massive layoffs which is the company that I work for. I did not

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: get let go yet again so this is my second layoff that I have somehow survived. To be honest

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how but I am still here working at Bungie so I can't if I had been let go I would

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: have spilled the beans on everything but I that well and even even so I really don't have much

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: context other than kind of what you've read. What I can say is this in broad strokes is that

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: this in the games industry is in a place where you really we're in a place where

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you really have to have astronomical success to be considered successful

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and when I say astronomical I want to be clear by what I mean by that. Astronomical means

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: every single thing that you do has to be unprecedented meaning it has to achieve results

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that that you've never achieved before with every single thing that you put out.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're always breaking your personal best record?

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You always have to PR every time and not only do you have to PR but you have to PR

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: by like you know think of it in terms of running right? You're let's say you compete

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in marathons this is the analogy to the games industry let's say your first marathon you finish

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in three hours nice your next marathon you need to finish in two hours and 30 minutes.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah somebody who runs that is not very feasible which if you know anything about marathons

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and training for them like not only it's two hours and 30 minutes like a really good time but

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: jumping 30 minutes into like cutting your PR by 30 minutes is just

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I'm sure it's been done but it's like it's insane and that's kind of the place where

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: the games industry is at currently for kind of the existing models that are out there and

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we've talked ad nauseam about kind of those models and what that means and I'm speaking in

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: general terms I you know obviously this isn't specific to bungee I'm just talking in general

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: terms but I can just make that comment that that's kind of where we're at so like I said before

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I really it's it is fun to work in the games industry and I am passionate about games

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: but this industry is volatile to the people that work in it. Yeah it is volatile so yeah

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I don't have much to say there either holy cow what a bombshell of news and social media has been

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: the hive's nest has been kicked let's just say the hive has been kicked

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of anger flowing and you know justified a lot of this feels super crappy

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and it feels really crappy to see. Yeah there's no way around it I mean and it's you know

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's also sort of like it's becoming almost you know obviously everyone's disappointed in the

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: bungee and I'm you know probably more than many but you know let's not forget it was only a few

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: months ago when we had almost 2,000 people let go at xbox right so you know it's these things

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: come in cycles and it's yeah it's uh that's the world we live in now no good dude I mean

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I guess in some ways games have always kind of been like that but I think it it just has

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: become exacerbated with just how long and how tough it is to make AAA games now. Yeah

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Well shifting gears a little bit um did you see that reportedly Microsoft or Xbox is considering

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: delaying a vowed into Q1 of 2025 because of a crowded Xbox release this fall

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: so what do they got this fall we're gonna have Indiana Jones so we're gonna have stock or two

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and so this is this is not just Xbox exclusives but um or first party games I should say

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: um I have a list here from Destin I don't know ever how to say his last name from

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: McGarry? Yes thank you um it's one of those names I was reading and I never hear

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: let's see he says World of Warcraft expansion, agent mythology, Aura, Diablo 4 DLC, Call of Duty,

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Flight Sim, 2024, Stock or Two and then with no release dates on top of that Starfield DLC

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Towerborn Indiana Jones and then a vowed. Oh yeah okay yeah that I remember this list now yeah I guess

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that is a lot Jake. It kind of feels like a lot I mean personally I don't know there's actually

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: quite a few things here that I'm interested in personally Stock or Two um is one that's really

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: grabbed my attention I've actually I don't have time for this because I'm playing way too many

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: games but you saw that they released like all the stalker games on Game Pass not too long ago

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: or on consoles I have to double check that oh did they really? They did yeah they released all the

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: stalker games on consoles that's what I think of it I don't think it's Game Pass um so I've been

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: curious I'm like ooh Stock or Two is this game that people have been talking about forever

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it looks really cool I wonder if there's time for me to like go back and

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and play one of the original stalker games or one of the first it's it's one game with a bunch

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: of expansions is that right yeah I believe so I know my nephew was super into there's like a

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: crazy modded version of Stocker where you can kind of turn it into like a super game ooh

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: where you take like all the expansions and then it adds like a whole big

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: he was like really really into that for like a long time so anyway it's a very moddable game

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: apparently right okay yeah okay let's see yeah I get that is a lot and we haven't we don't have

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the definitive news on Towerborn but I've actually really been like a forward to that one I hope

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: they say they're gonna they're gonna say more about it at Gamescom we know it's gonna be

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: there right in a couple weeks so so anyway that is a lot of games for Xbox it sounds like

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: their November especially is probably gonna get really packed listen I I'm not bothered if a Vowd

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: gets delayed to 2025 Q1 I just I guess for me between Indiana Jones and a Vowd I want one

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of those to come out this fall and the other one to come out Q1 2025 because I think Indiana Jones

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: was the other one that people were like well if one of them were to get delayed it might be that

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: one too which I kind of agree with so yeah I don't know I would love for because out of all the

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: games that I just listed by far Indiana Jones and a Vowd are the ones I'm most excited for

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: like to play at least one of those this year yeah I would say just give a Vowd time to cook

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't need to come out this fall we can wait for it that's fine plenty of other games

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a really crowded time and you don't want that game to get like sunk you know

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you want that game to be able to stand on its own so actually it seems kind of like a

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: smart I mean obviously I was disappointed when something gets delayed but in the case of

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that one it probably actually kind of feels right yeah I honestly don't see a problem and

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: what I've seen with some of these rumors is that the reason for the delay more than anything is

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to avoid it getting washed out with all the other things coming to xbox and coming to game

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: pass specifically which folks if that's the reason you delay a game and a game gets an

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: extra three months of polish time does anybody lose really I don't feel like anybody loses

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in that kind of scenario as they say a bad game is always bad a delayed game I'm saying it right

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and fake what is it it's uh dude I don't know I I've heard 50 like I feel like 50 variations

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: there's like different versions of it right like nobody knows and it's and I've heard it's like

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: not even he didn't even actually say that I guess it's like mythologized it's it's not

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: even like a real quote at this point it's been paraphrased there've been paraphrasings of the paraphrases

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: something along the lines of basically if the game's not good delay it till it's good

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah but you can really only do that if you're Nintendo because at a certain point you gotta

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: put the game out and make your money back so you kind of just have to hope and pray and with that

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that's actually a good segue into the game of this show I'm an unfortunate segue and mortals of aviam

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: okay and mortals of aviam jake and I picked this up on a crazy sale for five bucks and then it hit

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: game pass just pretty recently this one was this this game is a pretty hotly debated video game

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say it had a lot of conversation around it when it came out was published by EA AAA

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: first person magic shooter game jake and I both played this and we're going to break it down

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Jake how are we going to do it we have moved into sort of the new era of the podcast so we

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: were talking about this in three different categories to sort of streamline and to make

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: more sense of how we've been talking about games anyway those three categories are narrative

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: game design and the finally impact on the industry if you are a patreon subscriber this is a special

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: topics episode and actually what we're going to do for that special topics is really really

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: honing on the question is this game as bad as people said it was and what we're going to do

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: for that is that we're going to camera not have pulled up a few reviews that we've skimmed

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: through in preparation for this episode and we're going to kind of say what our how our

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: personal experiences align with the general public's opinion on this game and maybe where

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: things have been unfair or things have been maybe too generous when talking about this game like

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Cameron said immortals of avium is a game that when it was first announced and when it launched

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a lot of water cooler talk about it and the problem if you are perpetually online

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like us and you look at gaming discourse on social media is that it tends to get super overblown

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and so this is something you'll see us do more often patreon subscribers you'll have access to this

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so please if you're interested in this kind of conversation please consider subscribing to the

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: patreon but we'll be discussing okay to what degree do we feel like this game got fair

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: treatment upon release and so that will be our special topic for patreon subscribers at

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the end of the episode so with that jake let's dive into the narrative of immortals of avium

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and let me just tell you jake this is like this is like a brandon sanerson novel

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: nice what that could be taken in a variety of ways and how did you come to that comparison

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: this is like a brandon sanerson novel in terms of how impenetrable the lore is

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and because video games do not give you 789 pages to like fully understand let me just

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm just going to read this real quick let me just see what our story takes place in avium

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: a fantasy world where magic is part of everyday life an ancient conflict called the ever war

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: has had the kingdoms fighting between each other over the control of magic for thousands of years

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: only two kingdoms remain luciam and rosharn in the game you play as jack an incredibly powerful

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: battle mage called a tree ark magnus jack is unusual is that he was never supposed to have

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: magical abilities in the first place he grew up destitute blah blah blah he was thrusting

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the ever war when the his home city became the epicenter of a rosharni in attack

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: he lost everything but then grand magnus kirkin recorts him to the join the order

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of the immortals who are fighting for luciam against the tyrant sandrack and his oppressive

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: rosharni in regime jake you know any like pronot pro like pronouns i just like uh how many

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so like places and descriptive nouns i just use there many and i was only able to follow because

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: i played and beat the game dude i'm this game is i'll just this game is just it's just thick

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it's too thick from the beginning from the very start it once you toss you into the deep pool of

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: lore and it doesn't it doesn't do what it takes to earn the right to do that and i'm gonna give

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: a contrary i'm gonna give a counter example to this which is a game that i would argue is

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: a thousand times more detailed in terms of lore and and story and like narrative and gets really

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: deep in the duffy on like places and things and blah blah and that's bouldersgate three

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: i should have known man i was trying to think what game is game however okay here's what

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: bouldersgate three does at the very beginning bouldersgate three is like hey you got a thing in

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: your brain that's going to eat you if you don't figure out how to get it out and it does this

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: incredible job of throwing you in without having to uh there's not a a verb for this it doesn't

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: have to give you the exposition it just tosses you into this scenario and shows you a bunch

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of cool looking crap and just lets you kind of it earns the right over time to to throw you in

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of a deep duffy of the lore and this game just kind of tosses you in the deep end and it's

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like good luck and it's like i do not care i don't care this okay i'm i'm gonna try to

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to restrain myself but it will fail and i'm just gonna word bomb it here oh my gosh where to begin

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: with immortals of avium listen like narratively i'm gonna say overall overall narratively i actually

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: think that mortals of avium has an extremely compelling narrative but it doesn't get interesting

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: until act two of the game like way too late in the game does it throw things at you that feel

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like compelling and i actually thought the final few missions of the game offered something

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: narratively really interesting and compelling but i do agree with cameron here and that

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the game dumps way too much on the player and this is this is i feel like kind of a problem with current

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: nerdery and nerdoms and fandoms is that we have developed two different ways of talking about

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: a game's story and we talk about lore and then we talk about narrative narrative being essentially

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the string of plot events that take place with with the protagonist and antagonists throughout a

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: storyline like that is narrative and then lore would be the elements of world building that are

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: baked into the overall game experience and like i said i mean this is actually broader than games

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you can think about movies you can think about novels all you know there's lore and there's

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: narrative and one of the biggest sacrifices i think narrative teams for video games make

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: is that they will create both they will create a storyline for you to follow and they will

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: create an immersive universe or world for the player to participate in but because of the nature

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: of video games as being interactive and and and being extremely full of optional content

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: players simply will not access everything that narrative writers have produced right

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: i mean just think about this like if you're playing a game do you read all the lore tabs

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: do you read the item descriptions for everything well some players do and some players don't

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it is possible you know for somebody to get like the minimum story experience out of a game

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and somebody in the same game get the maximum story experience um control i think is a wonderful

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: example of this you can literally not read any of the the lore documents if you will that you

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: pick up throughout control and you can still play the game and you can still have narrative

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like fulfillment as you go through the game now i think immortals of aviams maybe problem here

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: is that the writers really did not want the player to miss anything from this game narratively

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and so they throw everything at you in in the exposition they throw you know they try to create

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: this sense of urgency in this emotional hook for you to get invested from the get go and these

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: protagonists which is really common and normal and fine but on top of that they're throwing

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: all this jargon and this world building and this lore and like you said it's just throwing

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you into the deep end way too fast and i just think that video games have struck a very fantastic

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: balance in allowing the player to choose how much of the story they want to absorb and i kind of

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: feel like despite the fact that immortals of aviam has notes that you can read that are

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: scattered all throughout the game it just dumps way too much on your plate from the get go

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's way too jargony and so as a player you're like you know what maybe i just want to

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: shoot things with magic maybe actually don't really care about jack i don't care that he's

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: a triarch i don't know what that means yeah i think that you could sense that i think you

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: could sense you get the sense of the what the of the this was going to happen with this

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: narrative even from that very first like presentation or reveal it was like summer gamesfest or the game

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: awards i had this huge moment right yeah summer gamesfest that it was yeah i can't remember who

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: it was but they brought out the main actor right and they brought him out he's in never have i ever

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: on netflix and like a couple other things and he comes out and he gives this like record it or

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: not like this this uh the spiel about like the lore of the game that was the most like tongue

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: twisty just jargony filled presentation that was so dry it was like unbelievable and that's

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of how it felt in the actual game and so it's it kind of started there and unfortunately

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: i think i think it just continued into the game i i put in time in this game i like really tried to

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: like care about and kind of think about what was happening and i just i i couldn't do it i could i

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: just couldn't do it um and i don't know exactly why it didn't work i'm not a good enough writer

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to explain to you like how come this doesn't work because it's not like it's not like

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: other games don't have like weird jargon i'm like lore and and you know what i'm saying

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i have a few why does it not work it's not exactly clear like what does it not do that other

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: games i think i tried to explain one element which is in that comparison to bouldersgate like

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: bouldersgate just does such a better job of just does an incredible job with like pacing before

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it gets you into like the thick deep end of the lore which it is which it is jammed past with lore

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe even more than like any other game but it allows you to kind of experience that

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: just get into it without having i don't know it's it's hard to explain it really is i i wish

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: i could be more eloquent about it i would say bouldersgate 3 is not afraid of the player

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: missing 80 percent of what the game actually has to offer narratively it's it's not afraid of that

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it embraces that by pushing so much that player decisions have profound impact on what's happening

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: right now of course bouldersgate 3 has i would say the breadth to be able to sort of like accommodate

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it has the narrative depth to accommodate that kind of style in a game like immortals of avium

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: right the story is pretty it's supposed to be straightforward and relatively linear you start

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: at point a the protagonist is in this position and by the time you get to point z the protagonist is

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in that position i honestly think that the onboarding for this game is so difficult because they were

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to do too much at once or i mean you want to create a sense of urgency bouldersgate 3 is

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a fantastic example of this you have a parasite that's about to eat your brain you got to take

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: care of this and so immediately the player is bought into well i want the game to continue

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and i want to see what happens if i do or do not get this parasite out of my brain

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and so you have this sense of urgency to press forward right and then of course there's like

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: emotional attachment to the protagonist and typically in a lot of stories the number one way

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that stories create emotional attachment to protagonists is by having you understand some

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: type of trauma that characterizes the protagonist right and so the in immortals of avium it's

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: for sharning attack on jack's hometown jack is a street urchin he kind of has this makeshift family

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and that makeshift family gets torn apart because of this um resharing uh invasion and so that's

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: supposed to create emotional attachment and a sense of urgency for the player of like we want

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to invest in jack and we want to see him win and it doesn't succeed because a lot of that

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: is bogged down just by too much talking too much going on it's just overly complicated as they

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: try to explain this entire universe to the player wearing in reality focusing on the characterization

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: i think would have helped a lot and and so a classic example of this is why the the hobbit

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: by jr r token starts in the shire it starts in the shire because the shire is relatable and because

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know people reading that from you know the british isle think of the english countryside

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: they think of things that are extremely relatable and really the fantastical elements of the shire

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: are quite minimal and it's really just what hobbits are and what they look like and then jr r token

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: will slowly build upon sort of that magical fantastical element culminating in the

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: confrontation with smalg and so when you start with something that's like 90 percent relatable

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: 10 fantastical onboarding is much easier and much more believable because people can

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: understand exactly what it is that's happening they can feel that a lot better

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: immortals of avium i think skews that balance it's not 90 10 it's probably 50 50 and so a lot of the

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: game doesn't feel relatable feels a little impenetrable emotionally and so it's hard to really want to

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: root for jack because you don't feel like you know jack um you feel like you're watching jack does

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that make sense yeah i think it does yeah i mean i think it's just it's just a poor execution i almost

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: feel like there's a version of this game where they maybe reorganize or take out a bunch of stuff

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that is a way better game negatively and i think maybe there's like just some editing and like i'm

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: being again this i mean this is a podcast so we're armchair devs i know nothing about how to craft

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a video game narrative so like who am i to say this but it does feel like from you know uh from my

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: very limited perspective that perhaps there's some more editing that could have gone on with

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: this story to just synthesize it down to hey if if what we're doing here is we're making a first

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: person shooter where it's like pew pew blow up the things with magic let's just focus on like that

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: element and just kind of edit out ever let's just edit ourselves down and it feels like they just

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't do that enough it feels like the writer's room got way too excited about something that maybe

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they shouldn't have been quite as excited about and they needed just a little bit of a

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: stronger editing hand and i think that might have helped things a lot actually i i both agree

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and disagree because i believe the second half of the game narratively does interesting things

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and without going into spoiler territory i feel like i mean the context of the ever war is that all

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: these kingdoms have been fighting forever over control of magic and it's been whittled down to

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: two kingdoms and the leaders of those kingdoms are exhausted they want the ever war to end but

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: they're trapped in the cycle of violence and there is a lot of i guess i'm spoiling a little bit

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: i apologize but most of you haven't played this game so i don't feel that bad um but there's

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of questioning if there is a way out of that cycle or not and the game gets

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: super interesting when that begins and i think i and i just to be clear i think i'm agreeing

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what i'm what i'm saying jig is i think i agree with you 100 what i'm saying is

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: i think they should have edited out all the uninteresting parts and just leave the game

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: it almost felt like hey this is a triple-a game so we need to have like this much

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: length and like this much content right but it was one of the situations where like

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like to your point things get really interesting in act two and they do some

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting things narratively we need to get to that way faster or start with it

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah i i agree absolutely the last thing i want to say about narrative is that um

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: folks i think i think i speak for many of us when i say that we are tired of the brash

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: unrepentant loudmouth backbiting ironic humor protagonist um i think if this game had come out

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: five ten years ago maybe five years ago people would have liked jack a lot better but just sort

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of brash arrogant when they do make a mistake they hardly apologize um i think we're kind

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: of sick of that and that was a hard character for me to really really enjoy um i and so the humor

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't land for me because it's like nine out of ten times it's this backbiting ironic thinly veiled

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: mean insulting humor which i personally am just tired of um and so that made it hard also for

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: me to create any sort of emotional attachment to the characters for the most part i didn't

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: find them to be super likable i don't think they were poorly written necessarily but

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: i'm because they're multi-dimensional but like they were not enjoyable for me no they weren't

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and they have it simple well i think that brings us into the gameplay which

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: to be honest i i found a lot to like here um this is definitely a first person shooter

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's with magic and basically like you have a bunch of different guns but they come in the

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: form of abilities with different colors of magics there's like red magic and whites and like

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: different colors and then within that there's different abilities you can lock that that do

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: different kinds of damage like area of effect or more focused damage or you get a heal uh you have

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: like a shield that you can use and various things like that um and the comma it's not bad i would

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: call this like serviceable um i think it has some interesting boss mechanics has some interesting

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_00]: boss fights it does some interesting things with like having to use different combinations of

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: magic to take down different enemies which is sort of a novel concept like in first person

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: shooter it definitely is it's definitely like a little bit beyond just shooting the guys in

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the head which is what call of duty is although we're call of duty type you know situation

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: stands out as they just make that feel better than like any other game for they just do that the

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: best right um i think there's some stuff to like here um i think it's just muddied by too much

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: exposition and like just too much other stuff going on where you just like want to get to

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: like more of that combat and at the end of the day i think um for me i liked what was here but

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: for whatever reason like it just didn't it didn't hook me in and maybe that was the narrative

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and i think if the narrative had been better it would have been much more invested i think in

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of sticking with it and staying with the combat but i kind of fell off it a little bit

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but i do like i like some of the ideas here i did admittedly find myself thinking huh i wonder

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: how this game would have played as more of like an immersive sim and i wonder if like the story

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: would have worked better had it been more of like an immersive sim and they could have done

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: some more interesting things even like the setting and like the i'm thinking of like the first village

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: where that gets blown up yeah which is like sort of the impetus for the for the plot

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm like man this is kind of an interesting city i'm actually like intrigued by the setting

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: um and you're going in interesting places and like you i think the first mission is a heist

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm trying right isn't it like where you're gonna see you're stealing something i'm thinking

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: back is that right i'm saying that right right i can't remember to be honest

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah you're going like a tower and you're stealing something and i kept thinking

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: huh i wonder how this game would have been if it was more like a dishonored with magic situation

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously that's not what they made they made a first person shooter and it definitely feels

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: like that i think probably to its detriment that being said there's some interesting ideas here

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah i think with game design i'm totally fine with what it has in terms of its like foundational

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: structure i mean that's a linear single player story you have different missions missions are

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: filled with a bunch of different set pieces you take down a bunch of enemies there are bosses

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: etc like i'm totally on board with a lot of that and honestly i actually really liked the

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: combat system you switch between three different sigils which is different types of magic

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: one is like long range one is like shotgun burst and one is like short to mid-range kind of assault

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: rifle like firing off lots of projectiles quickly and uh they're blue red and green and you'll

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: find different enemies that have blue red or green corresponding shields and so you kind of have

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: to play this rock paper you know rock paper scissors way of getting down shields and taking

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: on enemies and i thought like that was actually fine i actually found the ability skill trees i

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: actually kind of liked them um there are some cool things in there super imbalanced um because

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: there are some abilities that were just like infinitely more powerful than others i would

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: unlock a node sometimes and feel like i got nothing out of it and there are other nodes i

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: would unlock and i felt like it like made really significant impact on what i was doing

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it has some sleuter vibes right where you can kind of go off the beaten path and you

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: can find a chest and that chest might have some loot in it that's interesting um loot being

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: different sigils that kind of manipulate the damage and you know how a gun might fire and

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of other like if it has bonus crit damage you can unlock rings that are going to change

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: like how different meters recharge and change cooldowns and you had like different abilities

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: like secondary abilities like there's the lash where you can like whip an enemy and pull them

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: towards you there is one that was essentially like a stun beam there's another one that was like

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: grenades and so i think like your general arsenal was actually really interesting and it

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: worked i was actually really surprised that uh it felt intuitive enough for me to be able

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to balance all these different things that i was firing off so i actually really liked the combat

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: system now my big gripe is that enemy variety was slim and enemies were so zippy and they felt

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: janky enough that a lot of my combos and like builds would just get interrupted what

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: due to something that just felt bad and so it's like i had this great arsenal but not a lot of

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: great scenarios to use it i felt the same way and that's and that's part of the reason why my

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: brain went to like immersive sims like huh i wonder if they had like

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: let's just go play dishonored jake you know i don't know

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i don't i don't know if i have much else to say because it's it's like

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it does that first person shooter thing where it's it's not it's not like it doesn't have

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: like a lot of depth to it but it does have a some interesting sort of um

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: more slightly more interesting mechanics to it than like your standard first person

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: shooter that being said i also you know what it also made me think a lot of

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: is doom oh have you played doom or doom eternal ones i've only played the the classic ones

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: so go boot up doom or doom eternal like the new one they're both on game pass and then

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: go play immortals for like 20 minutes and what you're gonna find is doom is just a way better

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_00]: immortals that just gets to the point which is boom boom blow up the guys

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and no one cares about the story and they just made the shooting just feel amazing

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and they just like dial that in yeah and i think that's like the main problem with

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: immortals is it just it just didn't do anything like really really and for a triple a game to be

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: phenomenally successful i think you just have to do it you have to do at least one thing

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: i think like really great right like nine out of ten at least right i think

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and i just they just weren't able to execute on that and yeah potential there i don't know i don't

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: know if you needed like more time you needed like a different i don't know i don't know i mean i am

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: intrigued by you saying like what if it wasn't immersive sim i think there could have been

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like a lot of cool potential there i honestly think that what they did here was fine and i'm just

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_01]: repeating myself here but it just didn't feel great to take this arsenal that i was fine

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: tuning into a lot of these combat scenarios some of the bosses there's one boss in particular

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that was recurring boss kind of just drove me up the wall i played this game on normal and i

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: thought to myself i would i would have not finished this game if i played on a harder

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: difficulty because some of the enemy types are just simply unfun i think i i think i would

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: have appreciated more maybe kicking it down to easy and just totally leaning into a power fantasy

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of just annihilating dudes but at the same time like doom doom but at the same time like your

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: arsenal is varied enough and there's enough build crafting available whether that be through loot

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that you get upgrading weapons or whatever ability nodes you want to unlock that i wanted to be able

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_01]: to bring these my build into different scenarios and just kind of enjoy that build which was just

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: a shame but i don't know i would say so this game i beat in 13 and a half hours which is

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty fast because i ended up mainlining it i did do a little bit of optional content and so

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: there are just like optional like even 3d platforming challenges or different combat

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: challenges and you could get rewards from it but i felt like rewards were relatively uneven

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: some treasure chests would be like here's this cool loot item some treasure chest would be like

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: here's some gold and they'd be the same looking chest and i'm like okay so what's actually

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: worth chasing in this game um so again take that with a grain of salt because i didn't

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: know that i was kind of turned off from it relatively quickly because i was like well

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't know if this is actually going to be worth it maybe i should just play the main story

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so let's talk about the impact on the industry for immortals of avium

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: this is an interesting game because it was a game that like didn't do well commercially but it

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00]: was talked about a lot yeah a lot uh the the chief developer or the lead what's the title

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: what do they call the title the lead the one of the lead game director game director the game director

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: i think i mean first off they i think they laid off the entire studio um let's see

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: nearly the entire studio so i actually have this up 45 percent yeah 45 percent and what was

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting is that the um the uh the the creative director the game director he went on a bunch of

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00]: pot he went on several podcasts i think it was several part well if it wasn't several podcasts

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: he is he at least went on remap radio which is um a couple former guys from i want to say polygon

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe i can't remember where they worked up but they started a new no game informer that sounds right

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah it might be a game informer i think remap radio anyway good gaming podcast anyway he went in and

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_00]: he just talked about how the expectations that they had were not even close to the outcome that

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_00]: they got and they like internally in the studio like pretty much everybody there was like we

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_00]: expected this game to be like a triple a like platinum hit dang and obviously like that did not

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: happen and we it also makes me think about redfall when they talked about redfall when they did

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_00]: because they have this thing where they'll take former journalists and this is like a thing that

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: they do right where they have former journalists they come in and they review the game and they

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: do mock reviews yeah behind closed doors and the mock reviews are supposed to indicate

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: like what the reception to the game will be and according to phil spencer when redfall came out

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_00]: redfall was getting like sevens from these this mock review process

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's just really interesting and i think the impact on the industry for me is uh from my

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: perspective is there's this interesting how do how do game how do um development teams

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: triple a development team specifically thinking about right how do you figure out what the

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: reception to your game is going to be and if it's gonna make the kind of money that you want

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_00]: like what do you do because that's a huge because we've talked about this a lot before

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in the triple a space it's all about like risk reduction which is why you see so many derivative

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_00]: products which is why you're seeing a million overwatch cuts this is the year of overwatch

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_00]: copycats you notice it's look jake it's concord marvel rivals uh those are the only two i could

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: think of at the top of my head but there's literally like three more i can't think of them

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: right there's that 3v3 shooter that just got announced they are literally overwatch straight

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: up they're just over marvel rivals i am shocked that like netty like blizzard hasn't sued netties

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's to rate up like they've even taken basically like the characters that they already

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: have and they just put a marvel skin on top um but anyway that's what i mean by that is like the

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_00]: whole thing is risk reduction and so how do they figure that out and why are these why are

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: these expectations so wildly off base for a game like immortals of avium and like what can

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: these companies do about it and i'm guessing that one of the biggest impacts of immortals

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of avium is companies like how are they thinking about what the reception is actually going to be

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then obviously the obvious impact of course is investment in these types of projects is

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: going to get even harder to come by than it was before yep that was actually my initial

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_01]: thought is and i expressed this to cameron right after i beat the game i was like man if this

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: were 10 years ago a sanded studios could have taken an l and they probably would have had

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: an opportunity to get more investors to make a better second game not necessarily a sequel to

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: immortals of avium but whatever their sophomore release would have been would have been much better

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because they would have learned so much from releasing immortals of avium but they released

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: this game in 2023 in which the financial reality of the triple a space just sucks right

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and so they don't really have that chance from what i understand the senate studios is still kicking

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but with hardly the staff that they had and i imagine they're immensely demoralized right

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: from what happened with immortals of avium and so i agree i think immortals of avium is actually

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: going to go down in the history books but as a cautionary tale unfortunately um it's interesting

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because um i have a page up here and it says uh director brett robbins admitted a part of

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_01]: poor performance was due to a $70 price which um again cameron i this is beating a dead horse but

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that's $70 price point for a game like this um i imagine it probably would have done a lot better

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: at $50 but i also imagine that trying to pitch selling this game for $50 so your investors

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: they just would have looked at you like you're crazy like you said something stupid right

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_00]: it's 125 million dollar budget games so yeah no you're not selling this for $50

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not selling it for $50 absolutely not i would love to see kind of it would be fascinating

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to know what the financials are now because like a bunch of people i know cameron and i

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_01]: included we bought this game like the lux edition on xbox for like a day went down to 499 or something

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_01]: insane and i was like yeah dude i'm gonna spend five bucks and see what this game is all about

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and this game has since come come to game pass and ps plus and so i'm like okay what kind of

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: this is interesting because the studio might only be a float now because they made some sort of deal

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: with sony and with microsoft to get an extra influx of cash instead of going to investors and

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: so i am kind of curious like as much as the subscription model has caused problems and

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01]: sucks you know for the industry is is a subscription model sort of a way for studios

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: fledgling studios to get an extra buck and if so is that a good thing and i kind of because

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: this is this is where i'm at within mortals of avium i feel like it's a game that was inherently

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_01]: conflicted and flawed because of that but i would have loved to see or i would love to see

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you know like what ascended studios puts out next and i just it's just a little disheartening to kind

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: of know that the triple a space is currently not really forgiving to any kind of flop yeah i mean i

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: what's the word i'm looking for restrictions breed creativity yeah and so i think in this

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: new environment that we are in and the gaming space because remember that immortals of avium is a product

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_00]: of an era that's gone yeah right it feels that way for sure it it was funded and like all

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it was funded and like all that stuff happened like pre-covid and then they obviously suffered

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_00]: through coveted and then like the game came out in this new environment that we're currently in

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_00]: this is going to be an environment where there's not a lot of money to go around

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_00]: there's not a lot of investment to go around if you're going to do a super huge project

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to have the biggest scrutiny that you've ever had you're going to be super tight

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00]: newest you're going to be super tight budgeted and supremely focused and what it's going to

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: lead to is a lot of derivative products that are trying to like hit the same notes from an analytics

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: dashboard that says like hey if you do this then you'll achieve this success but i think in other

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_00]: cases like it's also going to breed a huge amount of creativity because with a lot of restrictions

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of like restraint that has to be put in place that leads to a lot of like interesting

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and innovative solutions and so i think we're going to kind of see both things and i think just

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: immortals of avium is just an unfortunate casualty in the the state of the industry that we're in

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah i mean the other note is probably something that you mentioned and i want to elaborate on

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just that i think Ascendant Studios is extremely excited about their game which

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_01]: is something that i think to the point where it was hard for them to connect players to their

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_01]: level of excitement you know like sometimes you're in a conversation with somebody and they'll say

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: something that just feels like that's totally out of left field in response to you and then

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you talk to them and you realize that they had thought through eight steps before they had made

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that comment out loud you know what i mean i almost i almost feel like that that's kind of

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: disconnect that incurred with immortals of avium where they were appealing to like this hardcore

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: lore centric you know fantasy gamer player base and they just weren't able to connect players

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to their level of knowledge and excitement about what was happening in immortals of avium

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_01]: like i mentioned i do think that uh how the characters were presented also didn't really

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_01]: help create emotional attachment but yeah i just think that this is a cautionary tale in so many

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: different ways um but of course cautionary tales like this are probably going to be taken the wrong

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: way where it's like okay instead of trying to learn from their mistakes let's just not even

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: touch remotely what they were attempting to do in here because it will be a failure

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a shame um you want there to be creative space for people to

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: learn from mistakes and really digest feedback but i just feel like people will look at immortals

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of avium they're going to throw their hands in the air they're going to turn around and walk away

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and just be like i can't touch that that's not worth it well jake any else anything else to say

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: on um immortals of avium i'm just just one big sigh because this game to me is one of those

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: seven out of ten games that i think about it and i think man you know what could have been

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this game could have been and it just wasn't could have been and it just wasn't no more

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_00]: truer words wherever you're talking uh well ladies and gentlemen this has been another

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_00]: episode of the pre-adventist podcast talking to mortals of avium uh this is on game pass now

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_00]: so if you're intrigued by what we just talked about and interested to kind of

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_00]: go take it take it on a spin for yourself because i suspect that there's a lot of people

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that are actually really going to like this game to be honest i think it is it's one of those

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_00]: it's one of those where like there's a lot of people they're going to hate it but i think

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a group of you out there who are actually really going to enjoy this um

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah you should go check it out uh if you like the show please leave a review on your

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_00]: platforms when people are searching for video game podcast you can join us on the discord

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_00]: channel come in chat with us join in the conversation link to that is in the podcast

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_00]: notes and description um and finally if you want access to our special topics episode for this

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_00]: week which is going to be uh a continued conversation on immortals of avium talking about

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_00]: was it that bad so what we're going to do is we've obviously given our analysis but

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to go look at the critic reviews we're going to go look at the open critic

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: open critic meta critic scores we're going to look at how much money it made was it as

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: bad as people said it was immortals of avium and we're going to kind of break down what people

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: said about it that is only accessible if you are signed up on patreon.com slash period

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: of bonus at one of the tiers that gives you access to special topics episode there's only

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: one of those or two of those um go check that out sign up you get access to that special

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: content and a bunch of other stuff that we're doing on patreon thank you so much for listening

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and have a great night