Golden Sun (w/ Aaron from SuperPod Saga)

[00:00:10] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Pre-Order Bonus Podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Cameron Warren, and I'm joined, as always, by Jacob Price and a very special guest from the SuperPod Saga Podcast, Aaron Klaassen. Aaron, how are you doing?

[00:00:26] Hello, it's good to be here. It's been, I think, what, three months since you were on SuperPod? I think you're right.

[00:00:34] I think, was it three months or was it longer than that?

[00:00:36] We came on the SuperPod a few months ago, and now you're coming on our pod. We traded, you know what I mean?

[00:00:48] We're going full circle.

[00:00:49] Unfortunately, we're not going to have any clever advertisements like you do, Aaron, on your podcast, which are pretty fun.

[00:00:59] Oh yeah, NinjaThrowingStars.net, man, that was good.

[00:01:04] Heard that site took off.

[00:01:07] I should mention, I'll start us off with some hot news topics, which is hot off the press.

[00:01:14] It finally happened.

[00:01:16] It finally happened.

[00:01:19] The Pokemon Company and Nintendo are finally, I'm shocked it took this long, finally suing Power World.

[00:01:27] Jake, Aaron, give me your thoughts.

[00:01:32] Jake, you can go first if you want, man.

[00:01:33] I'll just say that I think it probably took this long because Pokemon was trying to build a case.

[00:01:42] And I think kind of at this point, everybody's over it.

[00:01:46] So I feel like in the public sphere, no one really cares anymore.

[00:01:51] Everybody knows that Power World isn't Pokemon.

[00:01:53] But I'm sure in the legal sphere, this is a big deal because it has to do with copyright.

[00:01:59] And if you let this go, then it might send legal precedent and all that jazz.

[00:02:04] So a part of me is like, let's see what this does.

[00:02:07] I kind of think it's just going to make Power World's notoriety and popularity go back up.

[00:02:13] But what do I know?

[00:02:17] Yeah, I mean, that I why power?

[00:02:21] Like I haven't played Power World.

[00:02:23] I played I haven't played more than maybe like 10 minutes of Power World.

[00:02:26] So I'm not sure why Power World.

[00:02:27] Why is that the one being sued?

[00:02:29] Why not like Yo-Kai Watch or any of the other like millions of Pokemon clones?

[00:02:36] Like the indie ones.

[00:02:38] There's like Coromon.

[00:02:40] Yeah.

[00:02:41] Cassette Beast kind of.

[00:02:44] Why not those?

[00:02:45] Why Power World?

[00:02:46] Why do they have to do that to Power World?

[00:02:48] I don't get it, man.

[00:02:51] But I'm surprised they did it.

[00:02:55] Man, how the hell do I say this?

[00:02:58] Like it's wild that Pokemon is suing Power World for basically ripping them off and infringing their copyright.

[00:03:05] Right.

[00:03:05] When Pokemon wasn't even like the original little creature catcher style of game.

[00:03:09] Like the Megami Tensei series started way back in like 84 or 87.

[00:03:14] So it's not like Pokemon invented the whole creature critter capturing kind of style of game.

[00:03:20] But I don't know.

[00:03:22] I'm not intelligent enough to have this conversation.

[00:03:25] But why Power World though?

[00:03:26] Why that one game, man?

[00:03:27] I don't fucking get it.

[00:03:30] I think there's something with the designs of the creatures that are very similar.

[00:03:35] And the lawsuit was specifically patent infringement, which that's kind of interesting.

[00:03:42] Does Pokemon Company have patents on the creature designs?

[00:03:46] Is that how that works, Jake?

[00:03:47] You would know this better than me.

[00:03:48] They must.

[00:03:48] Because I think, Aaron, you bring up a good point.

[00:03:51] This can't have to do with game design because.

[00:03:54] No, it's not a game design.

[00:03:55] Yeah.

[00:03:56] It's not like, oh, you're another monster collector game.

[00:03:58] It can't be because owning that would be outrageously stupid.

[00:04:06] Great.

[00:04:07] You only get monster catching games from one company or whatever.

[00:04:10] I don't know.

[00:04:11] I mean, if Power World had come like specifically after Pikachu, because I feel like Pikachu as

[00:04:18] a design is probably like heavily protected legally.

[00:04:21] Legally.

[00:04:22] Oh, yeah.

[00:04:23] Like the same way Mickey Mouse was up until Steamboat Willie.

[00:04:26] But anyway, Mickey Mouse is still protected by Disney like hardcore.

[00:04:29] So I just, I don't know.

[00:04:32] It's got to be creature designs in some way.

[00:04:36] Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:04:37] I always go back.

[00:04:38] Actually, when we talked about Power World, was that this year?

[00:04:42] Oh, my gosh.

[00:04:42] Anyway, when we talked about that in a past episode, I remember listening to one of the

[00:04:49] Insomniac devs.

[00:04:50] They were talking about making the Spider-Man punk outfit for Spider-Man 2.

[00:04:55] And they said that they wanted him to have Converse high tops.

[00:04:59] But you can't do that.

[00:05:01] So legally, you need eight points of difference in your design when you're making those shoes

[00:05:07] so that Converse can't show up and be like, hey, you're totally using our shoes.

[00:05:12] And so they said that when they were doing the design, there was a lot of back and forth

[00:05:15] between the artists who are working on the shoes and their legal team.

[00:05:19] And I just wonder if like, I don't know.

[00:05:23] I would love to know if the Pokemon company found a few of the creature designs and they're

[00:05:28] trying to argue that there are less than eight points of difference between some of the

[00:05:33] Power World monsters and like some Pokemon.

[00:05:36] And if that's the case, then legally, maybe they have grounds to say, hey, you have totally

[00:05:42] you know, I don't know, rip something off here.

[00:05:45] But yeah, the patent thing is probably the way that you do it.

[00:05:48] I don't know.

[00:05:49] I'm curious to find out more.

[00:05:51] I'm not like super invested right now in like Power World or I mean, I'm invested in

[00:05:56] Pokemon via my kids.

[00:05:58] But I just kind of want to see what happens here.

[00:06:00] I hope they don't kill Power World.

[00:06:02] That seems a little harsh.

[00:06:04] Look at look in the chat.

[00:06:05] I just while you were talking, I found a photo like a comparison of like Pokemon and some

[00:06:11] creatures from Power World.

[00:06:12] And I can definitely see why they're suing.

[00:06:15] That's that's I take it all back.

[00:06:18] Do you kill him?

[00:06:20] Yeah.

[00:06:22] That's that's no that I think I've seen this photo before.

[00:06:26] And it's this is the reason.

[00:06:28] Right.

[00:06:29] Because I because it's so close that like I think inevitably what will end up happening

[00:06:35] is this will be in court for multiple years.

[00:06:37] Oh, no.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:38] And they'll continue to work on the game.

[00:06:40] And then probably what will end up happening is as they're in court, they'll fight the lawsuit

[00:06:46] while they slightly change the designs to like come out of patent infringement.

[00:06:52] It would be my unless unless they I don't know what the legal ramifications are like the

[00:06:59] monetary ramifications are.

[00:07:00] I feel like it would be smarter to just cut a deal with Nintendo and just say like, hey,

[00:07:07] we'll just settle.

[00:07:08] We'll just can we hey, can we just change the assets?

[00:07:13] They're still going to I think inevitably ask for money because the game's been successful,

[00:07:18] which is I think is the unfortunate part.

[00:07:20] So depending on how much they ask for, they're going to fight it.

[00:07:23] But those legal fees could get expensive.

[00:07:25] So if you're if you're whatever that what's the power old developer pair pair, if you're

[00:07:31] pocket pair, you're like you're weighing like what the legal fee costs versus your game

[00:07:37] potentially getting shut down versus whatever like a settlement would look like.

[00:07:41] OK, so I'm looking at this photo that Aaron has put in.

[00:07:44] We're in a discord chat.

[00:07:45] I don't know the names of the power old creatures, but here's probably the same fucking thing.

[00:07:53] I mean, here are the Pokemon, though.

[00:07:55] We're looking at Delphox, Lucario, Lycanroc and Tangigroth.

[00:07:59] And out of these four, you look at the Lycanroc and you look at Lucario.

[00:08:04] So if you're listening, like look up those ones specifically.

[00:08:07] Yeah, dude.

[00:08:08] So this is top right and bottom left.

[00:08:12] It seems pretty dang obvious.

[00:08:15] Pretty dang obvious.

[00:08:17] The Delphox one.

[00:08:19] I'm pretty sure the last stage of Delphox has the weird like hat brim thing on its head.

[00:08:26] And yeah, it's all fiery and stuff.

[00:08:29] I yeah.

[00:08:30] You're right.

[00:08:31] That's actually excuse me, guys.

[00:08:32] I got this wrong.

[00:08:33] That is a mental evolution of that chain.

[00:08:36] And was it how kind of what is it even called?

[00:08:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:08:42] Yeah.

[00:08:42] You're right.

[00:08:42] Breaks.

[00:08:43] Breaks.

[00:08:43] Yeah.

[00:08:44] That evolves into Delphox.

[00:08:45] You're totally right.

[00:08:46] So it is kind of a mishmash of those two.

[00:08:49] Maybe that's how they're trying to avoid the copyright.

[00:08:52] They're like, no, no, no, no.

[00:08:54] Like that's actually the mental evolution or like this was actually like Pucario.

[00:09:01] Pucario.

[00:09:03] Did the Lichen Rock one, though, is like one for one.

[00:09:08] Yeah, dude.

[00:09:08] You're done.

[00:09:09] Pocket pair.

[00:09:10] I don't see any way.

[00:09:12] You need the greatest lawyer on this planet to talk your way out of that.

[00:09:16] They got to call Saul.

[00:09:17] I think I'm sure I'm sure the patent infringement defense lawyers are foaming at the mouth on

[00:09:24] the fees on this one.

[00:09:26] They're like listeners, I'm putting my hands like heavily on my.

[00:09:32] Come on, pocket pair.

[00:09:34] You could have done anything.

[00:09:35] Okay.

[00:09:36] That reminds me.

[00:09:37] There is an amazing skit and I can't think of who did it off the top of my head about

[00:09:40] this, but also the hard times or the hard drive just put out the satire article that

[00:09:45] was pocket pair hire same lawyers as Pokemon, but with guns.

[00:09:52] So yeah, I don't know.

[00:09:54] This is I actually really like the power world.

[00:09:58] Swacky dude.

[00:09:59] But yeah.

[00:10:00] Yeah, dude.

[00:10:01] These this is toast.

[00:10:03] Goodbye.

[00:10:04] Mm hmm.

[00:10:05] Well, other and other and not really news, but I think Jake and I have been talking about

[00:10:17] dude are we are absolutely buried in video games right now.

[00:10:23] I mean, I haven't felt this buried in the games in like a really long time.

[00:10:29] Like I'm struggling to think of a time where I have so many games that I'm playing that

[00:10:34] are all like really good.

[00:10:37] Yeah.

[00:10:38] Like a Scooby Doo sandwich.

[00:10:39] It's just like layer, layer, layer, layer, layer.

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:43] I'm like saying to myself, I'm like, can we like guys, can we just, can we spread this

[00:10:48] out?

[00:10:49] Like, is that, is that possible?

[00:10:50] Is that possible?

[00:10:51] Like, can we, can we map the year out with maybe like a nice flow and not just stack

[00:10:59] every single thing on top of each other at the end of the year?

[00:11:02] I mean, like I'm legitimately like I can name off the top of my head.

[00:11:06] Like we got keys for Frostpunk 2, which has been, uh, I can say this now because the embargo

[00:11:11] is up, which has been amazing.

[00:11:14] We've been playing Star Wars Outlaws, which has been really, really good.

[00:11:17] I've been playing the Age of Mythology remaster on Game Pass.

[00:11:21] Uh, I've actually been wanting to jump back into Starfield to see the updates because

[00:11:26] I'm curious.

[00:11:27] That's just three, just like off the top of my head.

[00:11:29] There's like five, there's DLC for Prince of Persia and I freaking love that game.

[00:11:34] I want to like get back into that.

[00:11:36] Is it too much to ask for one piece of shit game release?

[00:11:40] Is it too much to ask for one piece of shit that I could skip?

[00:11:43] Yeah.

[00:11:44] Can some of these just suck more, please?

[00:11:47] Let's spread these out.

[00:11:48] Come on guys.

[00:11:49] Like get out of this fall.

[00:11:50] I think the thing that baffles me too is like this fall window.

[00:11:55] It's so saturated that even if your game Astro, I didn't even mention Astro.

[00:12:00] Yeah.

[00:12:01] Astro bot is like crazy good.

[00:12:05] It's so crunched in this fall window.

[00:12:07] I'm like, how is any, how are any one of these games going to be successful?

[00:12:11] Because they're so stacked on top of each other.

[00:12:14] There's no way that you can like even get through to the sunlight.

[00:12:19] Of an audience.

[00:12:22] That's true, man.

[00:12:24] Yeah.

[00:12:24] I, I, I totally feel it.

[00:12:26] I, I think a couple months ago I was like, okay, now that I own Unicorn Overlord, I'm going to play through that.

[00:12:35] And it's good.

[00:12:35] And then it's like three more games came out.

[00:12:39] So I bought those.

[00:12:40] And then SteamWorld Heist 2, the sequel to one of my favorite games ever.

[00:12:44] That came out.

[00:12:45] And then lo and behold, even more goddamn games come out.

[00:12:49] And, uh, yeah, no, I feel, and then I can't stop playing Yu-Gi-Oh!

[00:12:52] So fuck, I'm doomed.

[00:12:54] You mentioned SteamWorld Heist 2.

[00:12:56] I just added that to my wish list.

[00:12:58] Yes.

[00:12:58] And I'm also playing Tactical Breach Wizards, which I forgot to mention, which is also amazing, by the way.

[00:13:04] Tactical Breach Wizards.

[00:13:05] One of the best games I've played this year.

[00:13:07] So, dude, it's, it's insane.

[00:13:10] And it's just like too much.

[00:13:12] It's too much.

[00:13:13] Like we got to spread that out.

[00:13:14] It's a lot.

[00:13:14] And you know, what's really funny is like, I was thinking like, okay, how am I going to juggle all these games that I'm playing?

[00:13:21] And just kind of to throw some onto the pile of all the games that we're playing right now.

[00:13:27] Star Wars Outlaws is one that I'm coming back into.

[00:13:31] I've been playing Bow, Path of the Teal Lotus.

[00:13:34] The Plucky Squire just came out.

[00:13:37] And then I have an indie impressions episode coming on like cozy management sim games.

[00:13:43] So, I started Gordlets and Minami Lane.

[00:13:46] Minami Lane is awesome.

[00:13:48] I'm actually really, really into that one right now.

[00:13:52] But like, they just keep coming.

[00:13:54] And then I'm really looking forward to Bloom Town, a different story.

[00:13:58] This is the devs who did Graveyard Keeper.

[00:14:01] They have this game coming.

[00:14:03] And I'm like, okay, slow down.

[00:14:05] And so, I look at October.

[00:14:06] And I was like, October should be slow.

[00:14:09] And then I'm just going to share this.

[00:14:10] Cameron texted me the other day.

[00:14:11] He's like, dude, Metaphor ReFantasio is going to come out.

[00:14:16] Oh, god damn it.

[00:14:17] And everyone is going to start praising this game.

[00:14:20] Even Yoko Taro, right?

[00:14:22] Of Nier Automata fame said that it was like one of the best games that he's been able to play.

[00:14:28] And I'm just like, dude, stop, man.

[00:14:31] Because this game is going to be a 90 hour plus game.

[00:14:36] And Unicorn Overlord is not a short game, right?

[00:14:39] Like, no.

[00:14:40] And so, I'm like, oh, October is going to be free and clear.

[00:14:43] And then, no, we're going to get like a 90 hour game that's going to like do incredibly well.

[00:14:48] Dropped in the middle of October.

[00:14:50] So, there goes October.

[00:14:51] Like, it's...

[00:14:52] We're toast as gamers.

[00:14:53] We need a month off.

[00:14:55] Dude, what's crazy too is like the Switch 2 didn't even come out this year.

[00:15:00] And we were all thinking like it was going to come out.

[00:15:03] It didn't end up coming out.

[00:15:05] Can you imagine if the Switch 2 was coming out this fall?

[00:15:08] Oh, no.

[00:15:10] Dude, that's a lot of money spent.

[00:15:12] And you know what?

[00:15:13] Dude, it's...

[00:15:14] We didn't even mention Legend of Zelda Echoes of Wisdom comes out next week.

[00:15:18] Oh, my gosh.

[00:15:19] Like, speaking of Switch 2 not showing up.

[00:15:22] But Nintendo is still delivering on games.

[00:15:25] Like, the Mario and Luigi Brothership game is coming.

[00:15:28] Oh!

[00:15:29] Super Mario Jam 3 is on its way.

[00:15:32] Fuck.

[00:15:32] It's like...

[00:15:33] And Mario...

[00:15:34] God.

[00:15:35] Dude, when it rains, it pours.

[00:15:36] That's kind of what's going on.

[00:15:38] And so, I am like...

[00:15:39] I swear I'm making like 15 to 20 minutes of progress in like 10 games right now.

[00:15:44] Can you release some of these games like in February?

[00:15:48] Maybe one in like...

[00:15:49] Like in...

[00:15:51] Like, maybe...

[00:15:52] Maybe mid-January or...

[00:15:54] Could you not like slow roast them just a little bit longer?

[00:15:58] Dude, polish them up.

[00:16:00] Get...

[00:16:00] QA, do another pass.

[00:16:02] You know?

[00:16:03] Like...

[00:16:03] Another pass.

[00:16:05] Like, just...

[00:16:06] Anyways.

[00:16:08] We've...

[00:16:08] Speaking of too many games...

[00:16:12] Let's get to the topic of today's show.

[00:16:13] Which is...

[00:16:14] The reason we've invited Aaron on...

[00:16:19] To the pre-order bonus podcast.

[00:16:20] To talk about...

[00:16:21] Oh, yeah.

[00:16:22] Golden Sun.

[00:16:24] Jake, how are we going to break this one down?

[00:16:25] We will be talking about Golden Sun.

[00:16:28] The Game Boy Advance RPG Classic.

[00:16:31] We're going to be talking about it in three categories.

[00:16:33] The first one will be the narrative.

[00:16:35] So, we're going to be talking about the story.

[00:16:37] We're going to be talking about the themes.

[00:16:38] I just want to do a quick warning here.

[00:16:41] So, typically, if you're a long-time listener to the pre-order bonus podcast,

[00:16:44] you know that we don't really go beyond, like, Act 1 or the first 20% of a game.

[00:16:49] Well, Golden Sun has been around for over 20 years.

[00:16:52] And so, it's kind of, like...

[00:16:54] Spoilers.

[00:16:55] It's a fair game.

[00:16:55] It's a fair game, man.

[00:16:56] Spoilers abound everywhere.

[00:16:59] So, just have that heads up, right?

[00:17:01] So, you have been warned.

[00:17:03] So, we'll be talking about the game in detail.

[00:17:06] We'll be talking about...

[00:17:07] There's a lot of later events in the game that I'm really excited to talk about and hear Aaron talk about as well.

[00:17:12] And then, after we kind of get through narrative, we'll be talking about the game design here.

[00:17:17] I mean, this is like a classic JRPG.

[00:17:19] So, we'll be talking about those mechanics.

[00:17:21] We'll be talking about the grind.

[00:17:23] We'll be talking about the battle system and kind of what makes Golden Sun stand out.

[00:17:27] And what gives it longevity as well.

[00:17:29] And then, we'll wrap up with impact on the industry.

[00:17:32] And what's really nice about doing a game that's so old at this point is that we'll be able to see with a lot more clarity kind of what Golden Sun has been able to do for the video games industry and for JRPGs and for other games broadly in its wake.

[00:17:48] And yeah.

[00:17:49] So, there's going to be a lot to talk about.

[00:17:51] The episode will feel a little bit different.

[00:17:53] And I'm really looking forward to the conversation that we're going to have.

[00:17:56] So, we'll start off with the narrative.

[00:18:01] Well, let's jump right in.

[00:18:02] I'm going to be honest off the upfront.

[00:18:05] I'm going to be very honest.

[00:18:07] I played a little bit of this game, but I did not get very far.

[00:18:11] It is.

[00:18:12] I think it's available on the Switch online, which is where I played it.

[00:18:20] The nostalgia factor was not there for me on this one.

[00:18:25] I am a hardcore Final Fantasy person.

[00:18:28] So, I played all those games growing up as a kid.

[00:18:30] Somehow, I missed this one.

[00:18:32] And it's probably because it was on a handheld device.

[00:18:34] And I just would never play handheld stuff.

[00:18:37] Oh, man.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:39] So, I'm missing out on.

[00:18:41] So, I missed.

[00:18:42] It was.

[00:18:43] I think it's just.

[00:18:44] I don't know.

[00:18:45] So, what I'm.

[00:18:46] I'm going to be more of a moderator today.

[00:18:48] So, with that.

[00:18:49] Okay.

[00:18:49] But I do have some comments and some thoughts because I did put a few hours in.

[00:18:55] But I'm going to be more of a moderator.

[00:18:56] So, with that, I'm going to pass the buck to Jake.

[00:19:00] Jake, break down the narrative for us.

[00:19:02] What's going on?

[00:19:04] What's the deal on Golden Sun?

[00:19:06] Where are we going?

[00:19:06] What are we doing?

[00:19:07] So, I'll just give like a very quick recap at the beginning.

[00:19:10] And then, Aaron, let's like really get into the way that.

[00:19:13] I really want to talk about the way that this game starts narratively.

[00:19:16] This is something that I mentioned to Aaron and that I've already kind of, I think, alluded

[00:19:19] to at this point.

[00:19:20] I was playing this game simultaneously with a game that came out later, which is not a

[00:19:25] JRPG.

[00:19:26] It's a first person like RPG game.

[00:19:31] But I kept comparing like the exposition of the game.

[00:19:34] So, the way that this game starts is that there's a soul sanctum on like Mount and Laugh.

[00:19:40] And it's something's kind of going on there.

[00:19:43] Like you are playing as Isaac and you have your friend Garrett and you're trouble.

[00:19:47] I don't know.

[00:19:48] You're youth, right?

[00:19:49] So, you're like getting into trouble.

[00:19:50] You're doing things you shouldn't.

[00:19:51] And something like happens at soul sanctum where you see people that you've never seen

[00:19:58] before in your entire life.

[00:19:59] And they just kind of go up to soul sanctum.

[00:20:01] And you're kind of wondering what the heck is going on.

[00:20:03] And then there's this big earthquake.

[00:20:06] And it turns out the mountain is a volcano and it's erupting.

[00:20:09] And there's this whole sequence where you have to escape down towards the village.

[00:20:13] And everybody's panicking and they're trying to evacuate.

[00:20:17] And it's a really traumatic event for this village.

[00:20:22] Shoot, I wanted to call it Vale.

[00:20:24] But am I getting that mixed up with Vault?

[00:20:26] No, it is.

[00:20:26] No, it's Vale.

[00:20:27] Okay.

[00:20:28] Yeah.

[00:20:29] Vault is...

[00:20:29] Vault is later, right?

[00:20:31] Yeah.

[00:20:32] So, you go down there and there are casualties and it's difficult.

[00:20:36] And people are just trying to figure out exactly what the heck happened and why.

[00:20:40] And you don't really figure that out until three years later.

[00:20:43] Everybody's grown up a little bit.

[00:20:45] The town has kind of been processing their grief with this event.

[00:20:49] And then that's really where the adventure kicks off with the return to soul sanctum as

[00:20:54] Isaac and Garrett.

[00:20:55] And so, that is like...

[00:20:56] That's the prologue of the game.

[00:20:58] That's probably less than the first hour of the game.

[00:21:01] But just before I ask your opinion on this, Aaron, I want to get in there that I love this

[00:21:06] because Golden Sun managed to create an emotional hook very quickly.

[00:21:11] And I think this is extremely difficult to pull off.

[00:21:16] A lot of games want to create a sense of urgency because there's a tragedy that's kind of happening.

[00:21:20] But I just want...

[00:21:22] I just think that kind of the secret sauce with Golden Sun is that they really hone in

[00:21:27] on the fact that Isaac, which is the main character that you're playing as, is a part

[00:21:33] of a community.

[00:21:34] And that community has spirit.

[00:21:35] It has soul.

[00:21:36] It has a core.

[00:21:37] And it has a center.

[00:21:38] And so, as you're escaping from the volcanic eruption, you really get a sense of like,

[00:21:43] holy cow, Vale is a community.

[00:21:45] And everybody matters in this community.

[00:21:47] And when the casualties, you know, get numbered, you can feel the loss with the community.

[00:21:54] And so, I just think it does a good job of emotionally creating a reason for you to care

[00:21:58] about Vale and care about Isaac, which I found to be like really shocking that it could pull

[00:22:03] off in 20 minutes.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:06] Especially in a game on a handheld console.

[00:22:08] Because you compare that to like, we'll say like Fire Emblem or I'm struggling to think

[00:22:15] of other Game Boy Advance RPGs.

[00:22:18] I guess Mario and Luigi for that matter.

[00:22:20] Like normally, like on a handheld, you would just cut right to the chase, be like, boom,

[00:22:24] bad guy, go get him.

[00:22:25] But Golden Sun, in the beginning, does a really awesome job of building up not only like, how

[00:22:34] do I, like, building up the story and like the villains, but it also builds the world

[00:22:40] really, really well.

[00:22:42] I guess maybe not so much in like the beginning, but as you go on, it builds the world so well

[00:22:47] with what the NPCs talk about and how the, like I said, how you chase the villains around

[00:22:54] almost like a Pokemon game, kind of.

[00:22:57] But yeah, that beginning is so good and then plays so well into the kind of ending toward

[00:23:06] the end, which I'm sure we'll get to because it's infamous for how it ends.

[00:23:11] Yeah, I was really shocked with how this game ended in a really good way.

[00:23:17] I was, it took some serious guts, I think, to kind of do with the story what Golden Sun

[00:23:22] ends up doing because it's pretty atypical on how it ends.

[00:23:25] But yeah, that beginning, I totally agree with you.

[00:23:28] Like it creates emotional attachment and it does a really good job of just like very briefly,

[00:23:35] but memorably like introducing like here are going to be the villains throughout the game.

[00:23:41] Um, another game that I'm kind of comparing this to, or I was comparing it to while I was

[00:23:45] playing through it was Sea of Stars, which, um, I like Sea of Stars.

[00:23:49] Sea of Stars is a good game.

[00:23:51] Sea of Stars takes like an hour and a half before you're really doing anything.

[00:23:56] And I think that's a really, I think that's a disadvantage to Sea of Stars.

[00:24:01] Um, and I understand why, why they do it because the idea is like to like create emotional

[00:24:06] attachment to these characters.

[00:24:07] You're going to be following these characters throughout this like really long adventure.

[00:24:11] So you want the player to really care.

[00:24:14] But yeah, I wish I could pinpoint like the exact reasons why in Golden Sun, um, like more

[00:24:19] clearly and maybe do a better job of just stating those because man, I liked Isaac and Garrett

[00:24:26] right from the beginning.

[00:24:27] And they were people that I wanted to root for.

[00:24:30] And I think that's big.

[00:24:31] I think in part is because like they were kids affected by a tragedy and they were just

[00:24:37] so determined when they had a chance to, to do something for their community.

[00:24:42] They wanted to like contribute something to back to their community and that ended up being

[00:24:47] like this big heroic adventure.

[00:24:49] But yeah, I just was super impressed.

[00:24:52] It was, they just got to the, they like concisely were able to pull that off.

[00:24:57] Yeah, man, I've played this game more times than I could really count, man.

[00:25:03] And that beginning is always so interesting to me because you always kind of notice small

[00:25:09] things here and there.

[00:25:10] As a kid, I just blew through it.

[00:25:11] I was like, this is boring.

[00:25:12] When do I get to the real part of the game?

[00:25:14] But like as an adult, it's just like, oh, like, yeah, the Satorosa minority, like you

[00:25:19] stand no chance against them now.

[00:25:21] Like how could you even think to stand a chance against them and, you know, three years from

[00:25:25] now, whatever.

[00:25:26] But yeah, it's, it's just not your typical, uh, RPG intro.

[00:25:31] Cause like, uh, kind of comparing it to like, to Earthbound, it, it sets the whole entire,

[00:25:39] yeah.

[00:25:40] Uh, fuck man.

[00:25:42] I'm terrible with words.

[00:25:43] It's, uh, yeah, it sets, I don't know.

[00:25:46] We'll cut that part.

[00:25:47] I don't know what I'm trying to say here.

[00:25:48] I can't think of the right part for it.

[00:25:49] I think you're fine, man.

[00:25:50] I think you're totally fine.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:51] The tone, the exposition.

[00:25:53] God damn it.

[00:25:54] Yeah.

[00:25:55] Yeah.

[00:25:56] Yep.

[00:25:56] Yeah.

[00:25:56] No, I thought it was super, super interesting.

[00:25:59] And then like the game really gets going after three years.

[00:26:01] This is like where a lot of the tutorialization happens.

[00:26:04] Um, you speak with Krayton, who's kind of like the, the local elder, the person who's

[00:26:09] knowledgeable of the area and you go up to Soul Sanctum and you kind of sneak

[00:26:13] your way up there.

[00:26:14] Um, and then you start exploring and then you kind of start uncovering exactly what happened.

[00:26:19] Um, and you discovered that three years ago, that was kind of, uh, let's see.

[00:26:24] It was kind of a mess up, right?

[00:26:25] Um, by Saturno and I, how do you say this name out loud?

[00:26:29] Minardi, right?

[00:26:31] Um, yeah.

[00:26:32] Saturos and Minardi or Saturos.

[00:26:34] We'll go, we'll go.

[00:26:35] I don't know, man.

[00:26:36] Saturos and Minardi.

[00:26:37] This is always my problem with games like this.

[00:26:39] I read these names a thousand times.

[00:26:41] I never hear them out loud.

[00:26:42] And so when I have to say them out loud, I just guess, right?

[00:26:45] Don't ask me what names are.

[00:26:47] Cause I forget names of games.

[00:26:49] I play like a dozen times.

[00:26:52] Um, Zydane.

[00:26:54] That's one.

[00:26:55] Oh, I remember in like, not to get too off topic, uh, but like in the city, the, the,

[00:27:01] the, the city, a PSP game, they called him Zidane or they pronounce it Zidane.

[00:27:05] I don't do that.

[00:27:06] That's gross.

[00:27:07] But, uh, sorry, go ahead.

[00:27:10] Zidane is gross.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:11] No, you're good.

[00:27:12] Um, but yeah, so they go back to soul sanctum and you realize that Saturos, Minardi, they,

[00:27:21] they returned because they didn't quite figure out the secret of the soul sanctum.

[00:27:26] And then this is where the story really gets going.

[00:27:28] You kind of figure out that, oh, um, there are different lighthouses across the continents

[00:27:34] of this planet and these people are trying to light them.

[00:27:38] And then you're kind of, you're like, but that doesn't seem right.

[00:27:40] If it's going to cause a volcano to erupt, to kind of mess with what you learn later to

[00:27:45] be like alchemy, essentially the magic source of how this happens in universe.

[00:27:49] Um, that kind of seems to disrupt everything that doesn't seem right.

[00:27:52] And so there's, that's how the, the split and divide kind of happens between Isaac and

[00:27:58] Garrett in the beginning with a Saturosa Minardi.

[00:28:01] Um, and you quickly learn that you were just infinitely like less powerful than they are.

[00:28:07] And that's the other thing I appreciated about this game.

[00:28:09] I know it's a big modern criticism and I don't want to get into this too much because

[00:28:13] it tends to be really layered with sexism, especially, but there's a big criticism of

[00:28:18] like, well, how is it that this nobody suddenly gets to become like this super powerful adventurer?

[00:28:23] And I think golden sun is a really fantastic game in that from the get go, it's like,

[00:28:28] nah, dude, you have, no, you're just a teenager and sure you have some synergy, like adept abilities

[00:28:36] to, to utilize magic.

[00:28:38] But, um, over the course of the game and as you really gain XP to level up, it really does

[00:28:44] feel like a true adventure in the sense of like, okay, Isaac and Garrett.

[00:28:48] And then later, you know, uh, oh my gosh, Ivan and Mia, they formed this party that really

[00:28:55] does get powerful to the point where they can go toe to toe with some of these big dogs.

[00:28:59] So yeah, early part of the game, it sets like the tone really clearly.

[00:29:02] It's like, okay, you are definitely an underdog.

[00:29:05] You really are.

[00:29:07] You don't really know what's going on, but you have this will and desire to do right by

[00:29:12] your community and to like ensure that the kind of tragedy that your community suffered

[00:29:17] from the volcanic eruption isn't something that other communities have to suffer.

[00:29:21] And so that's another reason why I really liked the beginning of this game.

[00:29:24] So it felt like it gave the characters like really great motivation to leave their hometown

[00:29:28] and to just try to stop Satros and Minardi.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:34] And it's, it's, it's, it's interesting to how they go back to, or it's interesting.

[00:29:39] Um, I forgot the exact reasoning why Satros and Minardi couldn't get into like where they

[00:29:45] needed to in the beginning.

[00:29:47] I think it was cause they needed like a certain type of, of adept cause like adepts come in

[00:29:51] four different tribes.

[00:29:52] There's, uh, Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter and Jupiter.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:59] Yeah.

[00:29:59] And they need like a certain type to be able to get to where the, the eyeball dude was.

[00:30:03] But it's interesting to, to three years later, you're teenagers.

[00:30:07] So you go back to the mountain to where that eruption originally came from or whatever.

[00:30:12] And then the bang, they trick you and they steal Garrett's sister and all that stuff.

[00:30:17] And it's just like, Whoa, what the hell?

[00:30:19] I didn't see that coming.

[00:30:20] It's throws you for a loop there for a minute.

[00:30:23] And then you, there's that other twist later on down the line that we'll, we'll come to

[00:30:27] in a little bit.

[00:30:28] Yeah.

[00:30:28] You just get straight up outplayed and it felt good.

[00:30:31] Narratively felt bad cause you want to win, but it felt good.

[00:30:33] Narratively.

[00:30:35] Yup.

[00:30:37] Yeah, man.

[00:30:38] And it's, it's cool how, uh, I'm sure we'll get more into the Djinn later, but it's cool

[00:30:44] how the, the Djinn actually really, really, really affect how powerful, sorry, how powerful

[00:30:51] your characters actually become.

[00:30:54] I've never, I've never tried fighting the final boss without any of the Djinn cause you

[00:30:59] can just set them to be off pretty much.

[00:31:01] I've never tried to fight them with the Djinn off, but I assume it would be way, way fucking

[00:31:05] tougher.

[00:31:06] Like you would stand no chance at all, which is like, which is interesting.

[00:31:10] Cause we, yeah, without those Djinn, you're just powerless teenagers who haven't had as

[00:31:15] much training as say Sateros and Minardi have had.

[00:31:21] Aaron, I'll post this question for you.

[00:31:23] Where does golden sun sit for you in the pantheon of JRPGs?

[00:31:29] I feel like all comment, like I missed so many of these big JRPGs because they're on handheld

[00:31:36] devices.

[00:31:37] And I just like, just never played handheld other than everybody in 1998 who played Pokemon

[00:31:44] red pretty much.

[00:31:45] Um, but that was it for me.

[00:31:48] Like with handheld, I was like, I'm not a handheld person.

[00:31:50] Like I didn't play any of these.

[00:31:54] What are people missing out on with like, where does this sit in the pantheon?

[00:31:58] Right.

[00:31:58] Cause I'm, I'm a guy who's played pretty much every final fantasy game played quite a few

[00:32:04] RPG JRPGs, but definitely not a JRPG like master.

[00:32:07] Like I don't fully understand kind of the breadth of what's out there.

[00:32:11] Where does this one sit for you?

[00:32:12] I'd say, man, it's, it's tough.

[00:32:16] So I guess in, in my personal like brain collection, I guess I'd say it's probably in my top five,

[00:32:24] but I can't nail down for sure if that's just because of nostalgia.

[00:32:29] Cause I mean, the game is actually like, it's awesome.

[00:32:32] Um, yeah.

[00:32:33] Like the encounter, the encounter rate can suck my ass sometimes.

[00:32:36] Cause that, that shit, random encounters annoy the shit out of me.

[00:32:41] As much as I love JRPGs, random encounters bug the shit out of me sometimes.

[00:32:45] But I really do love the, I'd say like out of, like, as far as just like RPGs on the system,

[00:32:53] that's probably still about a top five.

[00:32:56] I mean, if you, as far as original ones go, not counting all the remasters of like, say

[00:33:02] final fantasy five or like breath of fire and stuff like that.

[00:33:05] Like I'd say it's a top five on the entire system.

[00:33:10] What's your top one and what's like your top one and two for context?

[00:33:14] Like of all time or.

[00:33:15] Yeah.

[00:33:16] Like all time.

[00:33:17] Pressure's up.

[00:33:17] Pressure's on.

[00:33:18] So, no, I already know it.

[00:33:20] So final fantasy nine earthbound.

[00:33:23] Okay.

[00:33:24] I guess that nine, your number one.

[00:33:26] Yeah.

[00:33:26] Yeah.

[00:33:26] Nine is my number one.

[00:33:27] Dude.

[00:33:28] That's my, that's also my number one.

[00:33:30] That's crazy.

[00:33:30] Yeah, dude.

[00:33:31] Oh man.

[00:33:32] Dude.

[00:33:33] Let's change the podcast right now.

[00:33:34] No, I'm kidding.

[00:33:35] Keep going.

[00:33:35] I'll come back on for final fantasy nine, man.

[00:33:37] Let's do it.

[00:33:38] All right.

[00:33:39] Let's do it again.

[00:33:40] Especially if.

[00:33:40] Is that remaster happening?

[00:33:42] I hope it is.

[00:33:42] I would say if that remaster remake thing happens, that would be great.

[00:33:45] That'd be cool.

[00:33:47] Yeah.

[00:33:47] Maybe one of my favorites.

[00:33:50] Okay.

[00:33:50] So FF9.

[00:33:51] Okay.

[00:33:52] So it's in your top five and FF9 is in the number one spot.

[00:33:55] So contextually, that's, that's pretty, that's pretty insane.

[00:33:59] There's a lot of freaking JRPGs.

[00:34:01] There are many.

[00:34:02] And there's, yeah, there, there's a lot of JRPGs out there, but Golden Sun just does so

[00:34:07] much differently that you don't see in other RPGs.

[00:34:11] The only, the only kind of like maybe, I guess, series or a couple of games that I can think

[00:34:16] of that even come kind of close in terms of like the, the structure of the game.

[00:34:21] Structure.

[00:34:22] I don't know why I put an N in there, not structure.

[00:34:24] Structure.

[00:34:25] Uh, would be like maybe like the Lufia series.

[00:34:28] I like that.

[00:34:28] Structure.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:29] Um, yeah, the Lufia series kind of almost comes a little bit close to it because it has

[00:34:36] like overworld puzzles and like the kind of creature collecting a little bit, but Golden

[00:34:42] Sun just, it tickles me in a way that other Game Boy Advance RPGs don't, man.

[00:34:47] It's, it's, it's great.

[00:34:51] Very cool.

[00:34:52] Yeah.

[00:34:52] I would, I would say that, um, and just, I guess I meant to say this earlier.

[00:34:56] So this is my first time actually playing through Golden Sun.

[00:34:58] I missed it.

[00:34:59] I played a lot of Game Boy and Game Boy Advance, but I was playing a ton of Pokemon

[00:35:03] and Harvest Moon more than anything.

[00:35:06] Um, so playing, playing this for the first time in 2024, over 20 years from this game

[00:35:12] first came out.

[00:35:13] So I also played this on Nintendo Switch online.

[00:35:16] Um, I was really shocked at just how well it held up because one, the narrative still feels

[00:35:24] different.

[00:35:25] Um, after you, after you kind of do this whole sanctum stuff, you get like your main quest

[00:35:29] from the wise one.

[00:35:30] That's like, please stop, uh, sad Rose and minority from lighting all the lighthouses

[00:35:34] and unleashing alchemy into the world.

[00:35:36] And, uh, so you get this like good quest and you're trying to stop, um, specific people.

[00:35:41] But like I said, uh, the game does a really good job of setting up like the idea of really

[00:35:46] adventuring through the different continents.

[00:35:48] Because yes, that's your main objective and yes, it's in your mind, but it's not like,

[00:35:55] um, it doesn't create the kind of like contradiction that some main objectives will give you when

[00:36:01] they're like, you must do this.

[00:36:02] It's super urgent.

[00:36:03] Please do this right now.

[00:36:04] And you're like, but I have 50 hours of game ahead of me.

[00:36:07] So obviously I don't need to get this done right now.

[00:36:09] Right.

[00:36:10] Um, you're kind of, you just told there are four lighthouses and you need to find them

[00:36:15] and you need to stop these guys.

[00:36:17] Good luck.

[00:36:18] And it's not like a sad Rose and minority are traveling faster than you.

[00:36:22] Right.

[00:36:23] And so it kind of gives you the space of like, okay, it's going to take you time to get there

[00:36:27] and you're going to have to become more experienced and you're going to have to become stronger

[00:36:31] and you're going to have to have lots of like different mini adventures before you get

[00:36:35] there.

[00:36:35] For example, when I first left Vale and I think this is a funny thing.

[00:36:40] Um, this game has a ton of quality of life that you would expect to be in a game from

[00:36:45] like in the, like this decade that it had way back when.

[00:36:49] But, but one thing that's very old school in this design with its narrative is like,

[00:36:53] I left Vale and I was like, wait, where am I going?

[00:36:55] Uh, because yeah, where are these lighthouses exactly?

[00:37:00] And it's not like the lighthouses are neatly placed North, South, East, and West.

[00:37:05] And the way that the continents are designed are not, I mean, they're mazes.

[00:37:09] Like you can go on a path and it's, it's a dead end.

[00:37:13] And you're like, crap, there's actually nothing over here.

[00:37:15] And so you have to really find your way forward through the game.

[00:37:20] And the only way to really know where you're going is you have to talk to every single

[00:37:24] person in a town.

[00:37:25] And this is super old school in design.

[00:37:28] And, um, but it works with the narrative because the narrative isn't like defeat Ganon right

[00:37:35] now.

[00:37:35] The narrative is like, you have to do the same kind of searching that your villains have

[00:37:39] to do.

[00:37:40] And the wise one is just like, I kind of hope that you get it done before they do, but good

[00:37:44] luck because they're infinitely more powerful than you are.

[00:37:47] Um, yeah.

[00:37:48] And the other narrative thing that kind of makes sense here is very quickly though, you

[00:37:53] run into a Dijin for the first time.

[00:37:56] And this is, I don't know, it's Jinn kind of comes from the same word as genie.

[00:38:01] So I just thought of them as like little genies that you collect.

[00:38:04] And, um, yeah, this is a crucial mechanic.

[00:38:09] And I realized too late how important it was, but narratively it's like, oh, you want to take

[00:38:13] on these super powerful guys.

[00:38:14] You're going to need help because you alone are not it.

[00:38:18] Right.

[00:38:18] I also forgot too that, yeah, you're fighting Sateros and Minardi at the Mercury Lighthouse,

[00:38:24] which is water.

[00:38:25] And I mean, they lit it.

[00:38:26] So bam, their power, what power they had is basically just, just fucking chopped in like

[00:38:31] half or like a fraction of their power now.

[00:38:34] Cause they're, they're fire adepts.

[00:38:35] Yes.

[00:38:36] So this fire week against water, all that.

[00:38:38] Yeah.

[00:38:38] So only way that you're able to actually fight them like a soul sanctum or at the light

[00:38:43] had the first lighthouse.

[00:38:45] Um, but yeah, I don't know.

[00:38:46] The game just does a really good job.

[00:38:48] I think of for a fantasy game, just explaining why there's like power scaling in the game and

[00:38:55] why that happens.

[00:38:57] Um, which I just appreciated.

[00:38:59] Like it, you know, I'm fine.

[00:39:00] And I could suspend my disbelief when I'm playing, uh, anything that's fantasy or sci-fi, but

[00:39:06] I just thought it was like a really neat and tidy and concise way of saying like, okay, you

[00:39:10] need to get to the djins as you're going out because you're, you're going to need them,

[00:39:14] you know?

[00:39:17] Yeah, man.

[00:39:18] Yeah.

[00:39:18] Exactly.

[00:39:18] And yeah, they, they, they do explain or they do explain the, uh, power creep and just

[00:39:24] really, really cool ways.

[00:39:25] Like, like, uh, the final boss listeners that you fight is in the, the water lighthouse and

[00:39:31] yeah, they're, they're fire adepts or mages or whatever.

[00:39:33] So yeah, that that's, that's the only way your, your characters could ever even hope to stand

[00:39:39] a chance.

[00:39:39] Cause any other time you fight them, you just get, you just get mopped.

[00:39:42] They mop the floor with you.

[00:39:45] Yeah.

[00:39:46] Yeah.

[00:39:46] Well, I think we could talk about the story all day, but I'm going to force us to move

[00:39:50] and talk about mechanics.

[00:39:52] This is good.

[00:39:52] Cause there are certain mechanics that I wish I had mastered before final moments of the

[00:40:00] game.

[00:40:01] Anyway, just to interject.

[00:40:03] Well, let's yeah, let's dive in.

[00:40:05] So, I mean, obviously JRPG.

[00:40:09] So if you played any JRPG, JRPG, you know, sort of the gist.

[00:40:14] Right.

[00:40:14] Like turn-based, it does that thing where, um, you mentioned it earlier and, uh, um,

[00:40:22] the, what's, what is it called in JRPGs?

[00:40:25] Like how often at like people attack you when you're walking through the world, the random

[00:40:29] encounters.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:30] Random, yeah.

[00:40:31] Random encounters, which seemed very extremely high.

[00:40:35] Like, and like I said, I only played like a few hours, but I was like, Whoa, this is like a

[00:40:42] lot of random encounters and, and like in recent years that's been toned down so much or almost

[00:40:48] like to zero where you can just see things.

[00:40:51] Yeah.

[00:40:51] Yeah.

[00:40:52] So to go back to that is super jarring.

[00:40:56] And I just, that's one part of the design I noticed, but, um, yeah, no, I was really

[00:41:01] impressed with just, uh, I mean, it's got that sort of basic JRPG format, but I was super

[00:41:08] impressed with how they did like the visuals and kind of the speed of combat.

[00:41:13] Um, and having played like the final fantasies back in the day and just having missed this

[00:41:18] game, I feel like had this come into my, like just come into my eyesight back then and had

[00:41:26] kind of, I seen what I had to offer.

[00:41:27] Like it would have jumped massively like up in my list.

[00:41:31] It's, uh, yeah.

[00:41:33] So I just, it, it does a lot.

[00:41:35] I think it, it should I even say maybe like maybe ahead of its time a little bit.

[00:41:40] Like, yeah, that was definitely my prevailing thought playing this game is I was like, I'm

[00:41:46] surprised at how comfortable I feel with a game that's this old.

[00:41:49] Um, yeah, the, the random countering rate is crazy high, but I do want to point out that

[00:41:54] like the way that you use and organize items and the way that you like buy new items and

[00:42:00] equip them, you can equip them immediately in the shop and you can sell them back to

[00:42:04] you can sell your old items back to the shopkeeper in the same conversation, which I

[00:42:10] to me, I was like, this feels like a really contemporary design, um, to, to, to be able

[00:42:16] to do stuff like that.

[00:42:17] Um, and then, but even then, like you can buy like a rappel, like you can, that's what it

[00:42:23] is in Pokemon so that you have less wild encounters.

[00:42:27] Like I was just surprised at like the type of items I felt like that were in there to

[00:42:32] kind of ease the way that you're playing the game.

[00:42:35] And, uh, I really, really liked this because there were some moments where I was like, you

[00:42:39] know what, for the next hour, I'm going to turn on a show and I'm just going to do some

[00:42:42] grinding in this game.

[00:42:43] Old, good old fashioned, just sit down and grind.

[00:42:46] So it's like, okay, I'm going to take off all of my rappels and I'm just going to go

[00:42:50] out and I'm going to be near town.

[00:42:52] And, you know, just until my HP is low, then go back in, heal up at a, at a, you know,

[00:42:57] an in and then come back out and grind again.

[00:42:59] And so I actually just felt like golden sun had what felt like contemporary quality of

[00:43:05] life when it came to the grind that I actually enjoyed grinding in this game.

[00:43:09] It felt relatively painless.

[00:43:12] Yeah, man.

[00:43:13] And even when you're in battle, like it'd be cool if there was a fast forward function

[00:43:19] or, uh, like an auto battle, but I mean, you can just hold, I think it's like a or B

[00:43:23] you can just hold either a or B and it'll just go automatically.

[00:43:25] Like just tap a really fast into your commands.

[00:43:28] It'll go whoopee, whoopee, whoopee, whoopee.

[00:43:30] And then you just hold a and then it just goes and goes and goes.

[00:43:33] And you got to kind of repeat that cycle.

[00:43:35] But, um, yeah, it's, it's pretty quick.

[00:43:38] Thank God.

[00:43:38] Yeah.

[00:43:39] It's just characters jump in and slash in and then boom, dead.

[00:43:42] You win.

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:43] Um, and then the one thing that really sets this game apart is the, the djins, right?

[00:43:48] And I'll be, to be totally frank, it took me way too long in the game to figure out

[00:43:53] how to optimally use these.

[00:43:56] Um, but essentially it's just like, you can call in a genie that will boost your stats

[00:44:00] and do a massive attack or massively heal or increase your defense or like negate damage.

[00:44:07] And, um, I remember I actually sent Mary or I sent Aaron a text about this.

[00:44:12] I was like, I was like, dude, I am stuck on this kraken boss.

[00:44:15] Like this boss was a freaking wall.

[00:44:19] Um, and I just could not figure out how to do enough damage and how to like resist enough

[00:44:25] damage.

[00:44:26] Um, until, and that's the moment I was like, I have not collected enough to djins.

[00:44:31] I need to go back out.

[00:44:33] I need to collect some and I need to come back with some big firepower.

[00:44:37] So like narratively, this is very cool.

[00:44:39] Mechanically, I also think it's very cool.

[00:44:42] And for me, that's what makes golden sun really different because they're much more than just

[00:44:45] like HM Pokemon.

[00:44:47] They are incredibly useful in battle, but that's when I had to sit down and like start crunching

[00:44:52] numbers and be like, wait a second.

[00:44:54] Okay.

[00:44:55] What is this thing week two?

[00:44:57] What djins do I have?

[00:44:59] What abilities do I have?

[00:45:00] And that's when I really started getting involved.

[00:45:04] Yeah.

[00:45:04] Yeah.

[00:45:04] And it's a big fucking pain when, uh, yeah, you do get to like a boss that's a gigantic

[00:45:10] wall and it's like, oh, I'm actually missing the one or two to djins.

[00:45:14] So you got to kind of either rack your brain to figure out which ones you don't already have

[00:45:18] and go track them down and then go back to the boss.

[00:45:22] Cause there's no like, unlike Pokemon or even like say dragon quest, there's no fly to this

[00:45:30] town.

[00:45:30] There's no, goddamn.

[00:45:32] There's no like use a chimera wing or whatever to go back to this town or whatever.

[00:45:36] You have to actually manually run and go to from place to place.

[00:45:41] Find the djinn that you think you might've missed.

[00:45:44] And then, I mean, you could use a guide and save yourself a lot of time and headaches and

[00:45:49] be like, okay, well I missed this one at vault or whatever.

[00:45:51] And then you go back there and boom.

[00:45:54] But yeah, pretty much.

[00:45:56] Yeah.

[00:45:56] You do need for sure.

[00:45:59] For some bosses, you'll need a good amount of djinn, especially for the last boss.

[00:46:03] You'll need either all of, if not close to all of them to, to really stand a good decent

[00:46:09] chance against them.

[00:46:11] Yeah.

[00:46:12] This is, yeah.

[00:46:12] I felt like such a crucial mechanic and I wish I would have caught on earlier how important

[00:46:17] it is because like before you get to the crack and this is when you leave the first continent

[00:46:20] and you take a ship over to the next one.

[00:46:23] There's a lot that happens in the game.

[00:46:25] And honestly, I probably only had like six of them when I got to the crack in because

[00:46:31] before then, it very much was like classic JRPG where you can just optimize, okay, if Isaac

[00:46:39] is kind of my all-rounder, Garrett is, you know, my tank slash powerhouse and then Ivan

[00:46:44] is, you know, strong magic and then Mia does support and magic.

[00:46:50] They have their roles and you figure out their roles and then you just kind of optimize their

[00:46:55] roles specifically with the moves that they have and the things that they get upon like

[00:47:00] level up.

[00:47:00] Um, but yeah, getting back to that first or getting to that first wall and then just thinking,

[00:47:06] holy cow, I actually need to go back and thoroughly explore the continent so that I have way more

[00:47:11] firepower to take this thing out.

[00:47:13] And so then when I did that, like I was able to progress in the game and then the second

[00:47:18] wall I hit was at the very end of the game.

[00:47:20] I was like, dude, I, I don't think I can beat these guys at the very end of the game.

[00:47:26] And so again, had to like leave and then backtrack.

[00:47:30] And this is when I whipped out a guide.

[00:47:32] I was like, no dude, I'm not doing this on my own because this is super crucial.

[00:47:38] And so what's, uh, sorry, I'll wrap up my thought here.

[00:47:41] I'm talking too much, but my final thought here is like, I love the Dijin system.

[00:47:46] I think it's amazing.

[00:47:48] But what I didn't realize is that it's not nearly as optional as I thought it was at the

[00:47:54] beginning of the game.

[00:47:57] I was going to ask, uh, what's the level of grind and this, because obviously like our

[00:48:06] JRPGs from this era, there can be a massive amount of grind where you just hit a wall and

[00:48:12] it's like, okay, you just got to go and do random encounters until you, your fingers bleed.

[00:48:17] Right.

[00:48:18] Is that here?

[00:48:19] And this is me just ask the question.

[00:48:21] Cause I didn't get far enough to like hit that wall is how much of that grind is here.

[00:48:26] I'd say, I guess as someone, I guess like a veteran for, to, to this game, like if you,

[00:48:34] if you have the amount of gin that you're supposed to at the time and you have like the best equipment

[00:48:39] and you know, you, you fight well and everything, you really shouldn't need to grind.

[00:48:45] Like you just, if you fight, if you basically just fight every random encounter you find

[00:48:50] and you don't run, you should be good.

[00:48:53] But, um, I mean, yeah, there are some bosses that are bastards like the Kraken.

[00:48:57] Cause it does the whole, uh, what is it?

[00:49:00] I think it like blinds you and that's a pain in the ass.

[00:49:04] Um, and then you have the last boss is also a pain in the ass, understandably, but yeah,

[00:49:10] you shouldn't need to, if you're keeping up on your gin.

[00:49:14] So I guess this is a game where you might need to actually have a guide so you can keep track of the gin,

[00:49:19] the gin, unfortunately.

[00:49:21] Yeah.

[00:49:21] Cause there's, there's, I think three that you don't see ever.

[00:49:28] They're just like hidden on parts of the continent.

[00:49:31] Like there's, there'll be just like this big piece of land that's, uh, there's no towns on it.

[00:49:35] No nothing.

[00:49:36] It's just like, it's like this little Island.

[00:49:38] There's a bridge connecting it to the continent.

[00:49:40] Nothing will tell you there's a gin there, but there's a gin there.

[00:49:43] God damn it.

[00:49:43] You just go there.

[00:49:45] First random encounter you find on that little piece, it'll be a gin.

[00:49:48] And you fight it and it's yours, but there's also a bunch.

[00:49:51] Yeah.

[00:49:52] Sorry.

[00:49:52] I'm getting, I'm getting weight.

[00:49:53] Uh, you shouldn't need to grind is what I'm saying.

[00:49:56] Yeah.

[00:49:56] Sorry.

[00:49:56] I mean, the weight.

[00:49:57] Got it.

[00:49:58] So the, so the, the, the, the gins, like, is that what makes it like, so you don't have to do that?

[00:50:03] Cause you can just go target and like get certain.

[00:50:06] Okay.

[00:50:07] Yeah.

[00:50:07] Cause they'll give you, like Jake said, they'll give you like stat boost.

[00:50:11] You'll do a good amount of damage with the little attacks that they do.

[00:50:15] Um, there's even ones that like heal you, um, heal your stat.

[00:50:18] Status and all that shit.

[00:50:19] There's also ones that's, well, I guess after you use a certain number, you can do a summon,

[00:50:25] which we'll do just like a, just like in Final Fantasy, let's do, it'll bombard the entire

[00:50:30] screen of enemies with just a bunch of damage.

[00:50:33] And, you know, if you stack like the right, like, uh, the ones that the enemy is weak against,

[00:50:37] you can just do a boatload of damage in one go.

[00:50:39] So, and then that'll, that'll kind of help quite a bit too.

[00:50:43] But yeah, they're basically just like armor, like a armor and stat boost and shit like that.

[00:50:49] Yeah.

[00:50:49] I mean, I, I would agree.

[00:50:50] I really don't think you have to do that much grinding.

[00:50:54] I actually think the game's pacing is really good.

[00:50:56] Like the XP pacing and leveling up, but yeah, I don't know.

[00:51:00] Just for me personally, my playthrough, I figured out too late and I did do some grinding because

[00:51:05] I liked it and I didn't really mind it in this game, but man, I really wish I had been collecting

[00:51:10] those guys much earlier on because it makes your life infinitely easier when you're doing

[00:51:17] some of these fights.

[00:51:19] And so again, I think this is kind of a testament to like, uh, Golden Sun is a game with awesome

[00:51:25] game design and it holds up really well.

[00:51:27] The game design is super old school.

[00:51:29] Exactly what you're saying, Aaron, like some of this stuff, like you, it's invisible on the

[00:51:35] map.

[00:51:35] It almost feels like if you did it without a guide, which a lot of people think like early

[00:51:40] two thousands internet, that's back when Mewtwo was hiding under the truck or me was

[00:51:44] hiding under the truck and people thought you could do that.

[00:51:47] Right.

[00:51:48] But, um, Jake, did you print off the game FAQ for this?

[00:51:52] No, I have a bookmark.

[00:51:53] Just the all text.

[00:51:54] Save it to a floppy.

[00:51:58] Did you print off the entire game FAQ to on your mom's laser?

[00:52:05] And take off my parents?

[00:52:07] I would have.

[00:52:08] I did that for a Harvest Moon 64.

[00:52:11] Definitely like printed off like, like 150 pages from the game FAQ site.

[00:52:17] Oh my God.

[00:52:19] Not to get too Santa-y with that.

[00:52:20] Like my dad's like office printer in like 2001.

[00:52:25] Say, did you get a talking to after that?

[00:52:26] Cause that feels right for, for.

[00:52:28] Or spent like $200 on ink without even realizing.

[00:52:33] Son, you owe me a whole squid after that and I'll go to your room.

[00:52:37] Oh man.

[00:52:38] Um, yeah, just, uh, but like the, the invisible stuff that you can find that's actually really

[00:52:44] crucial or the having to talk to everybody in a town.

[00:52:48] Sometimes you have to do that.

[00:52:49] Like if you're getting to, I think it's to get to Toby, you have to activate specific

[00:52:54] cut scenes by talking to everybody in town.

[00:52:56] Um, which, you know, nowadays that's just really not how games are designed.

[00:53:02] There are, their signposting is so much clearer for any of this stuff.

[00:53:07] Even if it's like considered optional, it's not required to progress or it's not required

[00:53:11] to beat the game.

[00:53:12] That stuff is really easy to keep track of.

[00:53:15] And so, man, I ended up doing the modern day equivalent of printing off the game, game

[00:53:20] FAQ.

[00:53:21] I just had on my phone, I just had a window open of like the golden sun fandom walkthrough

[00:53:27] where I was like, okay, where do I go now to get this stuff?

[00:53:32] Particularly the, the digins, man, because I just learned way too late that they're super

[00:53:37] crucial to the game.

[00:53:39] And the game's kind of almost a Metroidvania in a sense, because there's, uh, there's quite

[00:53:46] a few points early on in the game where you'll need a specific synergy, uh, or spell.

[00:53:53] We'll say spell just so, just not to confuse people, but like you'll need a certain spell

[00:53:56] to get to this place and that place will either have like a gin or it'll have like a cool item

[00:54:01] or sweet gear or something.

[00:54:04] But you'll have to do a lot of backtracking to go back there and then get that shit and

[00:54:08] then go back to where you were.

[00:54:11] Yeah.

[00:54:12] Which I totally agree with.

[00:54:14] I was shocked at myself because I resisted looking at a walkthrough for a really long

[00:54:19] time.

[00:54:19] Um, how much of the game I actually had missed in how many of those spells or synergies that

[00:54:24] I had missed.

[00:54:25] And those, the way that Aaron's talking about them, they function if you're familiar with

[00:54:28] Pokemon, like HMs, um, where it's a move that you can use in the world that will like

[00:54:34] unlock a specific location that you're trying to get to.

[00:54:37] Um, and the crazy thing about golden sun is that there's a huge, like an absolutely huge

[00:54:44] list of abilities that you can have in this game that you can use in the world.

[00:54:49] Like, like conceal was one that threw me off.

[00:54:51] I was like, Holy cow, this kind of changes a lot of things here.

[00:54:54] So the, the, the depth of this game, do you want to use it like twice?

[00:54:58] I mean, you only have to use it like twice, but I was like, this is here.

[00:55:01] Okay.

[00:55:02] Let's, let's give this a go.

[00:55:04] Um, or reveal, for example, when I got that one and you can start seeing all the like secret

[00:55:08] cave locations, I was like, Oh dude, it's now I have to go look for stuff because the

[00:55:15] world is just so has so much more depth than, um, than you initially think.

[00:55:20] Right.

[00:55:20] It's yeah.

[00:55:23] Oh yeah.

[00:55:23] And have we, we talked about like the, well, I guess before, before we get to like anything

[00:55:29] else.

[00:55:29] Yeah.

[00:55:29] The, the, the other cool thing about the whole like a gin and shit like that is, um, you

[00:55:34] know, if you mix and match different, uh, tribes or elements of gin, you can basically create

[00:55:40] different classes or jobs or whatever for your characters, which I don't, I haven't had

[00:55:44] admittedly, I haven't messed around with that a whole lot.

[00:55:46] Like every time I play through it, I just do plain Jane, like Isaac, earth, Garrett, fire,

[00:55:51] me, a water, Ivan wind, but you can do like, there's a lot of points in the beginning where

[00:55:57] you'll see like a little green, uh, leaf in the ground.

[00:56:00] And it'd be like, Oh, I wonder what that is.

[00:56:01] If you just give, um, let's give Isaac a fire or give someone like a fire and earth

[00:56:07] gin, you can do growth and grow that vine willy nilly whenever.

[00:56:11] But, um, yeah, there's a lot of cool classes that you can give characters by combining different

[00:56:17] types of gin to get different cool spells.

[00:56:19] Like, um, I think there is one that's called a ninja and they throw all these like red ninja

[00:56:26] stars that attack enemies.

[00:56:27] I forget what the combination is, but there's a lot of really, really cool.

[00:56:32] It's like a lot, the game doesn't tell you anything about this job or class system, but

[00:56:36] it's there and you can experiment with it and it's pretty sweet.

[00:56:39] I have not.

[00:56:41] It is cool.

[00:56:42] And it felt like to me, as I was finally figuring out like a more complex and maybe a more rewarding

[00:56:49] system than the materia system for final fantasy seven, which I know might be blasphemous

[00:56:54] to say because it's final fantasy seven, right?

[00:56:57] How dare you?

[00:57:00] But man, some of the, some of the combos, like, like you, Aaron, I didn't unlock a whole lot

[00:57:04] of them, but I started looking up a bunch and it's insane.

[00:57:08] The amount of stuff that's really packed into just like a handheld JRPG here.

[00:57:12] Like, uh, and there's this, like, I feel like a unique animation for every single one

[00:57:17] as well.

[00:57:18] And so you can just really go hard build crafting in this game with the Jhin system.

[00:57:24] Um, but because it's old school game design, the game tells you none of this.

[00:57:29] Like it tells you very little of this.

[00:57:31] It tells you, you should collect these.

[00:57:32] They're going to help you out on your journey.

[00:57:34] And then when you go to the menu screen, you really have to trial and error your way through

[00:57:39] figuring out how to use them.

[00:57:40] At least that was my experience.

[00:57:42] I had to do a lot of trialing and a lot of erroring.

[00:57:45] And this is for, for any listeners that are, that are still looking into getting into

[00:57:50] golden sun.

[00:57:50] If you haven't played it yet, the Jhin's basically thinking of, think of them as like lands in

[00:57:55] a game of like magic, the gathering, you got to tap them to get mana with the mana being

[00:58:01] like use them for summons and shit.

[00:58:02] So if you, if you use a Jhin, boom, it's tapped.

[00:58:05] And then you have mana for, for a summon.

[00:58:09] If that makes any sense.

[00:58:10] If anybody's played magic.

[00:58:11] Yeah.

[00:58:11] Yeah.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:12] It's basically like that.

[00:58:14] Like once they're tapped.

[00:58:16] Yeah.

[00:58:17] You bring up something interesting, Jake, this idea of like withholding information from

[00:58:22] the player, which is, uh, I think this, this is a nice transition into talking about

[00:58:28] impact on the industry.

[00:58:32] This, this idea or not even an idea, but just like, I, I feel like there's this sort of,

[00:58:38] I don't know if it's a real belief, but I feel like there's this belief out there, probably

[00:58:47] just in the tiny video game corner of the internet that new games are too easy or that games used

[00:58:55] to be better.

[00:58:57] There's this idea that like games used to be better, like retro or like they did it better.

[00:59:04] Right.

[00:59:04] Like they did difficulty or like they did design or like developers are lazy.

[00:59:09] You can tell I'm on Twitter too much because I don't believe any of this like whatsoever,

[00:59:14] but I'm just, this, this seems to be like a idea.

[00:59:17] I think you brought up an interesting one, which is like not telling the player everything,

[00:59:21] which obviously the preeminent example is probably like dark souls being maybe the most

[00:59:27] preeminent modern example of a game that just doesn't really tell you how to play it pretty

[00:59:32] much.

[00:59:32] I think the more modern entries actually have gotten a little bit better with that where

[00:59:37] they actually like kind of tell you how to play, which has made it more accessible.

[00:59:42] Um, yeah, but it's an interesting like concept.

[00:59:46] I obviously golden sun sits among dozens and dozens of like JRPGs from this era.

[00:59:52] I don't think it like created the idea by any means, but it's an interesting conversation.

[00:59:59] Like maybe is that's the way we can start this conversation is like our games too easy now,

[01:00:08] man, I that's tough.

[01:00:11] Cause I feel like just like you said with like souls borns or, um, I just had another good

[01:00:17] recent example in my mind, but I forgot it.

[01:00:19] Um, even like animal well and stuff like that, where the game tells you nothing.

[01:00:24] You just got to kind of go and whatever the hell direction and figure it out.

[01:00:28] Even like say, um, uh, what you call a super Metroid to an extent.

[01:00:33] Oh, that's not a JRPG by any means, but whatever.

[01:00:36] Like the, the games don't really tell you a whole lot.

[01:00:38] They're just like, there's bad shit out there.

[01:00:41] Head on out.

[01:00:43] Um, yeah, I guess it really depends on the type of game.

[01:00:46] Cause there's, there's also just a bunch where it's just like, um, what's a good example?

[01:00:51] Like a Bethesda game where it's just like, Hey, go to this point.

[01:00:54] Good job.

[01:00:55] You did it.

[01:00:55] You went there.

[01:00:56] Um, oh, that's a tough conversation.

[01:01:00] Cause yeah.

[01:01:01] Yeah.

[01:01:02] I think I appreciate, I have to admit on this topic.

[01:01:06] I do appreciate a game that tells you that has a one difficulty setting because even

[01:01:15] though that makes it less accessible, it does.

[01:01:19] What it does is it like, it ticks something off in my brain where I, where I just accept

[01:01:25] the game's design for what it is without trying to kind of force my way around it.

[01:01:32] A good example of this is I've, I've told the story before, but Sekiro, which is obviously

[01:01:37] another souls born title.

[01:01:39] So I bought and returned that game on steam three different times because I just bounced

[01:01:45] out literally not joking, like bought it and straight up returned it and got my money

[01:01:50] back.

[01:01:50] And the third time I just was like, damn it.

[01:01:55] I'm gonna freaking get past like whatever that initial wall is, which I think it's just

[01:02:01] like the first kind of, yeah.

[01:02:03] Just like the chain over whatever the bosses.

[01:02:06] And I did it.

[01:02:07] And it was like, that was the moment I realized where I was like, man, I really respect.

[01:02:12] I meant it is very, very satisfying when a game is like, this is just what it is.

[01:02:20] And you just need to figure out how to get it done.

[01:02:23] We're not going to give you options to just turn this off.

[01:02:25] We're not going to allow you to just lower the difficulty.

[01:02:28] You just got to figure it out.

[01:02:30] There's something satisfying about that.

[01:02:31] And I think maybe that's what people are alluding to when they say like old games were

[01:02:36] better.

[01:02:36] I just think they're more accessible now, but maybe it's like a brain trick where you're

[01:02:41] like, if I see that option to make it easier, I'm probably going to make it easier.

[01:02:47] Probably if I hit a, like a really hard wall, especially if it's a game where like the story

[01:02:54] is really good and I just want to see it through a good example of that recently for me is, was

[01:02:58] a final fantasy seven remake, probably a year and a half ago.

[01:03:03] I finally went and finished the game and I got to somewhat spoilers, the Sephiroth fight

[01:03:09] at the very end.

[01:03:10] I'd played the whole game on normal and I got to that fight and it was too difficult.

[01:03:17] And so I just dropped the game to easy and finished it after playing like the whole game

[01:03:21] on normal, which kind of bothered me mentally, but I was happy I was able to finish the game.

[01:03:26] So I don't know.

[01:03:29] That's yeah.

[01:03:29] I mean the same, I guess kind of go, um, the same kind of goes for like a Shin Megami

[01:03:35] Tensei game.

[01:03:37] You know, they're, they're also a turn-based RPG like Golden Sun, but they're a lot more

[01:03:42] difficult, but that's just by design.

[01:03:44] Like they're supposed to challenge you.

[01:03:45] They're supposed to be difficult.

[01:03:46] You're fighting for your life pretty much.

[01:03:49] Um, but those have the option to crank the difficulty either down or up.

[01:03:54] If you're truly sick in the head, you can turn it up even higher and just, yeah, it's insane.

[01:04:00] And it, yeah, I do like when a game is just like, dude, this just is what it is.

[01:04:04] Like Golden Sun.

[01:04:07] I get the fuck.

[01:04:10] I don't know.

[01:04:10] If I had to change any one thing about the game though, it would just be the encounter

[01:04:14] rate.

[01:04:14] Sometimes it's high, but also at the same time, maybe it's making up for all the parts in

[01:04:18] the game where you're not fighting, where the game basically just cuts off combat.

[01:04:22] And it's like, dude, go through this.

[01:04:23] Like, um, Oh, what was that?

[01:04:26] Like tournaments, uh, where it's like American Ninja warrior, but you're going through the

[01:04:32] Colossus.

[01:04:32] Can we, can we all agree that random encounters suck?

[01:04:37] No one, and no one likes them.

[01:04:39] No one like, because that, that's a mechanic that like has just been erased from history,

[01:04:44] right?

[01:04:45] Like we can just move on.

[01:04:47] Yeah.

[01:04:48] Yeah.

[01:04:48] That's, I guess that's also the one thing I would change about final fantasy nine.

[01:04:52] One of my favorite, my favorite game of all time, final fantasy nine.

[01:04:56] Fuck off with the random encounters, bro.

[01:04:58] Just let me explore.

[01:04:59] I want to, there's, I have the strategy guide for the game and I'm always looking through

[01:05:04] and being like, Oh dude, you can go to like this place, like this early in the game.

[01:05:08] That's sick.

[01:05:09] And I'll try to do it in my next playthrough, but then random encounter, random encounter,

[01:05:13] random encounter.

[01:05:13] I'll be like, no, I'm just going to go back to the South gate and just do whatever I'm supposed

[01:05:17] to do.

[01:05:19] I, I've really appreciated your guys' kind of thoughts on this topic.

[01:05:24] Um, I think like you guys, I can be torn on it, but I think what it really comes down

[01:05:28] to is if the game design like upfront within the first 15 minutes of a game, um, sets that

[01:05:39] expectation to the player and just kind of can elicit or like get the player to really

[01:05:47] buy into that kind of mentality, then it's kind of fine.

[01:05:51] I think the example you brought up of animal well, Aaron is a fantastic example here because

[01:05:55] like animal well tells you squat really about what you're supposed to do and how you're supposed

[01:06:01] to get through it.

[01:06:02] And, and I don't know, like animal well, in my opinion, one of my favorite games this

[01:06:07] year, one of the best like metroidvanias I've ever played, I think.

[01:06:11] And, um, but the reason why it works so well is because when you get to a brand new like

[01:06:18] frame, part of the level, it invites you through really subtle.

[01:06:23] I feel like environmental cues.

[01:06:26] What happens if you try this?

[01:06:28] Yes.

[01:06:28] And so the example that comes to mind for me is one of the items that you get is the

[01:06:32] bubble wand, which was my favorite one by far.

[01:06:36] And there's this moment where it's like, okay, you can shoot out a bubble with a bubble wand

[01:06:40] and you can jump on it and use it as a platform.

[01:06:42] And I remember I was like, oh man, but I need to go down.

[01:06:46] And if I jump on a bubble, I do sink a little bit.

[01:06:51] And so the game gave me enough cues to make an informed like guess about what I could do

[01:06:59] mechanically later.

[01:07:00] And it paid off like so much in animal well, I think is a really fantastic example where it's

[01:07:06] like, it just tutorializes the different abilities in the most subtle ways possible.

[01:07:13] And it's I felt like every like two out of three guesses I had of what to do next, I was right.

[01:07:19] Like very rarely I was I felt wrong, like in what I was trying to do, because the game just like

[01:07:25] designed these next levels to like invite that kind of creativity.

[01:07:30] And so if a game can pull that off, then I think it doesn't matter as much.

[01:07:36] Hollow Knight is another example.

[01:07:37] Hollow Knight also tells you squat, but Hollow Knight does a really good job of inviting you to experiment.

[01:07:44] And I would say your experimentation is like a little more punished in Hollow Knight than something like Animal Well.

[01:07:50] But yeah, bringing it back to the game that we're talking about, Golden Sun, I don't know.

[01:07:56] Like if I were to change anything, I would probably make the the gins maybe maybe a little more optional.

[01:08:04] And of course, I'm biased because I found out way too late how important that they were where or make them easier to find.

[01:08:11] Yeah, like don't hide them so much like the ones that you do see in like a dungeon or wherever like in a town.

[01:08:19] The ones you see, you can kind of be like, oh, that's how I get it.

[01:08:22] Or, oh, maybe I come back later.

[01:08:24] But I guess, yeah, the game does a really piss poor job of like, I guess, even telling you or giving you like a like a like a radar or something.

[01:08:34] Letting you know there's a gin in that area.

[01:08:36] But then you also backtrack a shit ton to get some of the other ones.

[01:08:40] That also sucks.

[01:08:41] Now that you bring this up, that sucks.

[01:08:43] I'd change that as well, too.

[01:08:45] Give me like a like a fly or teleport or fucking something.

[01:08:48] Yeah.

[01:08:49] Yeah, you're right, though.

[01:08:50] Like a wayfinder or something.

[01:08:51] Right.

[01:08:52] Like it doesn't have to tell me exactly where it is, but just starts pinging, you know, and more rapidly the closer I get to where something might be.

[01:08:59] Like, I think I think that kind of guidance.

[01:09:03] It's a little more subtle, but it's clear.

[01:09:05] Like it's pretty legible for the player.

[01:09:07] That to me is like, OK, then then good.

[01:09:11] Make your game, design your game however you want.

[01:09:13] The last example I want to bring up is is Celeste.

[01:09:16] Celeste, I think when it comes to conversations about difficulty and like accessibility, I'm always bothered that people don't talk about Celeste.

[01:09:24] So I'm going to try to keep this rant to a minimum because I think Celeste is the perfect example of like there's you can really tailor your experience in Celeste with like reaction speed, like projectile speed and like all all these kinds of things.

[01:09:40] And I think those kind of accessibility settings, they actually don't mess with difficulty.

[01:09:46] I mean, you can abuse them or make them so they mess with difficulty, but really they're there to make it.

[01:09:51] So like, I don't know, man, if you've got like arthritis in your hands, this you can still play Celeste and it can still be a challenge for you.

[01:09:59] And you can still like have the same difficult experience and satisfaction that comes from that with those types of accessibility settings, as opposed to just making like a difficulty slider bar, like between easy and like very hard or whatever.

[01:10:15] I just think like giving maybe just a little more subtle guidance or subtle like control to the player to shape how their experience is going to be just allows players to have a tailor-made experience in a way that does still like respect what games or developers are trying to design.

[01:10:37] Does that make sense?

[01:10:38] Maybe it doesn't make sense.

[01:10:40] I mean, a little bit, yeah.

[01:10:42] If a game was like the, if the gate of entry is just entirely too high, like, cause yeah, in a retrospective sense, now that I'm kind of concocting all of this, like bubbling away in my brain, Golden Sun is very off-putting now that I think about it with that high encounter rates, no auto battle.

[01:11:05] If, if, uh, in the year 2020, in the year of our Lord 2024, um, you've played the newest JRPGs, you know, all that stuff.

[01:11:12] You go back to play, say Golden Sun, cause old Aaron hyped it up to you so much.

[01:11:16] I mean, it was worth it.

[01:11:17] And if you're not used, yeah, like if you're, if you're not used to how JRPGs were back then, that could be pretty off-putting, you know, the, the encounter rate, maybe the, the puzzles are ridiculous or like the, like you just can't find those,

[01:11:32] those like three gins that they don't tell you anything about.

[01:11:35] Um, if you didn't have a guide, you, you wouldn't know they were there.

[01:11:39] So accessibility definitely means a lot.

[01:11:43] And, and Golden Sun, yeah, it's very off-putting in a, in a very retrospective sense, or I guess even in a modern sense too.

[01:11:52] I mean, yes, but I do want to say I did love what I, you know, Golden Sun because out of, I think many of the games that you could go back to that are over 20 years old,

[01:12:03] Golden Sun actually felt one of the most comfortable to me to play now.

[01:12:06] So like going back to our greater category of impact on the industry, I do have to wonder to what degree Golden Sun did set a standard of like certain things,

[01:12:16] like when it comes to quality of life, the, the buyback and equip stuff, like in a shop, like, thank goodness that was in there.

[01:12:24] Um, uh, stuff like that.

[01:12:26] I actually really enjoyed the dungeons and the dungeon lengths and the puzzles in them as well.

[01:12:31] Um, because they weren't like overly long, but it wasn't like, well, I'm just walking from one end of the tunnel to the next.

[01:12:37] And there's a cut scene that happens to be thrown in there.

[01:12:40] I do think that like Golden Sun does have remarkable pacing when it comes to the narrative and just like the power creep and how the game just kind of goes.

[01:12:50] Um, but yeah, some of those old school game design elements are still annoying to this day.

[01:12:56] Right.

[01:12:58] And cool.

[01:12:59] Go ahead.

[01:13:00] Go ahead.

[01:13:00] I'll, I'll see it for later.

[01:13:01] I will, I will chime in with, we're getting pretty long on the tooth, Aaron, you know, our podcasts are pretty short because, uh, because my wife will divorce me.

[01:13:11] But what I'll end this conversation on is what I'd like to end this conversation on is JRPGs are a game.

[01:13:24] They're a genre that has stood the test of time since the very earliest days of gaming.

[01:13:32] And continue to, uh, you know, I'll see.

[01:13:36] And continue to, uh, obviously they've morphed and evolved, but we continue to see like JRPGs that are pretty close to their ancestry predecessor.

[01:13:47] Right.

[01:13:47] That like continue to come out with metaphor.

[01:13:50] ReFantasio probably being the most biggest profile one that's coming very, very soon.

[01:13:55] And why does this genre continue to have, why does this genre continue to like maintain its momentum?

[01:14:04] Obviously we have Octopath Traveler 2.

[01:14:05] We have all these HD2D, we have, uh, HD2D remake, um, Dragon Quest.

[01:14:13] Dragon Quest 3.

[01:14:14] Oh, I'm so excited for that.

[01:14:17] We've got, uh, we've got like, uh, the whole bunch of other, I'm trying to, uh, that Square Enix is the genre.

[01:14:24] Like this genre continues to go strong.

[01:14:26] We, the recent indie game that Jake and I both really liked, uh, what's that one called?

[01:14:32] Jake, the indie, the JRPG.

[01:14:35] Oh my gosh.

[01:14:36] Where they have the mech suits.

[01:14:38] Oh, Chained Echoes.

[01:14:39] Fantasy.

[01:14:40] Chained Echoes.

[01:14:41] Yeah.

[01:14:41] So this genre continues to hold like a deep sway, like over the gaming podcast.

[01:14:46] Obviously continues to make money, uh, continues to do very well.

[01:14:50] Why are JRPGs like still, why are they not fading out?

[01:14:53] I think it's because you could do so much with them, man.

[01:14:56] Like there's like a good example.

[01:15:00] Secret of Mana.

[01:15:01] They have like, like action based JRPGs.

[01:15:05] Uh, I mean, you could do like the Mario and Luigi, like, um, input, like button input based combat.

[01:15:12] There's so much you can do with RPGs and like mix and match different mechanics or make something completely your own.

[01:15:19] Like, uh, like the whole, um, press turn system and like the Shin Megami Tensei persona combat.

[01:15:24] There's just so many things you can do with RPGs aside from just, you know, taking the original Final Fantasy formula and just doing that over and over and over.

[01:15:35] Something you really.

[01:15:36] I'll throw this into the mix as you, and then you continue your thought or answer it around too.

[01:15:40] I just want to throw this in the mix that so Final Fantasy 16, Square Enix made it like a very pointed effort to put down the fact that that game is not a JRPG whatsoever.

[01:15:54] It was like a very, very concerted public relations effort to be like, this is an action game.

[01:16:02] This is not a JRPG.

[01:16:04] So, which is kind of interesting.

[01:16:06] Anyway, continue your thought.

[01:16:08] Yeah.

[01:16:08] Uh, I was going to say, uh, oh yeah, I was going to say, um, so yeah, JRPGs, you can, you, you take the original formula for the original Final Fantasy and, uh, you build on top of that with different cool mechanics and shit like that.

[01:16:23] Something you really can't do with other genres, like say a first person shooter because you're just first person shooting or a platformer.

[01:16:30] You're just jumping on platform, shit like that.

[01:16:32] Um, they do, I mean, some, a lot of games do things differently, but JRPGs, there's just, there is entirely too much that you can, you can change, man.

[01:16:42] There's so many, like the, the combat, I mean, of course the graphics, but like the, the characters, the way their powers work, shit like that.

[01:16:50] There's, there's just so much, so, so much that you can change and evolve over time.

[01:16:53] Um, yeah, kind of going along with that.

[01:16:56] I kind of think that, yeah, JRPGs in the combat system kind of comes back to a rock, paper, scissors kind of type of way of thinking and puzzling.

[01:17:04] Like, that's a lot of the game.

[01:17:06] I feel like mechanics are kind of based on that.

[01:17:10] But like you're saying, Aaron, like you can make rock, paper, scissors crazy complicated.

[01:17:14] I think golden sun is a, is a really fantastic example that with the gins, right?

[01:17:19] Um, final fantasy seven with materia, like you can, you can make that rock, paper, scissors much more complicated, much more nuanced.

[01:17:27] And you can allow for a really specific type of like strategical thinking and planning when you're in these games.

[01:17:34] Um, a game that Cameron, I recently talked about like Arco, which does draw from like this classic term based, uh, combat system.

[01:17:44] It also elaborates on that.

[01:17:46] I agree.

[01:17:46] I also kind of think that like, and this will tie us into, we promise we talk about the ending of golden sun.

[01:17:54] And so I kind of want to bring this up as, um, I think JRPGs have a really rich history of the stories that they tell.

[01:18:00] I think JRPGs are, it's a, it's become an excellent genre for like really long form, high fantasy, high sci-fi adventures.

[01:18:11] And the way that golden sun ends, which is insane is like what happens in part of the, you, you discover that one of your long time childhood friends from veil is being held hostage by Satteros and Minardi.

[01:18:29] And they're kind of being forced to go along to these different lighthouses because they need their specific type of adept synergy to activate those lighthouses.

[01:18:39] And so it gives you this extra motivation as your, as party members to be like, man, Satteros and Minardi, these guys really suck.

[01:18:48] I mean, they got our best friend hostage.

[01:18:50] We got to save them, you know, Felix.

[01:18:52] And then you get to the end of the, the end of the game was in snuck up on me.

[01:18:58] You're at the second lighthouse of the whole game.

[01:19:02] You're supposed to go to four.

[01:19:04] You're at the second one and you're at the top and you're battling Satteros and Minardi.

[01:19:09] And you're like, okay, this is the end of the game.

[01:19:11] They're the final boss.

[01:19:13] You defeat them.

[01:19:14] And then you're like, all right, Felix, you're free to go.

[01:19:18] And Felix says, no, I'm not going.

[01:19:22] I'm going to continue to light the lighthouses.

[01:19:25] And I was like, dude, plot twist this late in the game, you know, like, excuse me.

[01:19:31] And the game makes this huge deal out of it and rightfully so.

[01:19:34] And I think that's just something that part of the earth splits off and shit.

[01:19:39] I know.

[01:19:39] Yeah.

[01:19:39] Then he just pieces out with the other hostage, Sheba, right?

[01:19:42] Or Sheba.

[01:19:43] But anyway, I think just that like JRPGs and the way that Golden Sun progresses its story

[01:19:51] and that this betrayal really hurts, you know, because you've built up 20 to 30 hours of like

[01:19:57] emotionally charged motivation for the story to turn out a certain way.

[01:20:01] And I think there's sure there's some unevenness.

[01:20:04] Some JRPGs have twists that just make you scratch your head.

[01:20:07] But like Golden Suns, for example, I think you just have these moments where like it's a it's unique to have a long form story,

[01:20:15] like a narrative where you can really experiment and mess with people's expectations in interesting ways with how an adventure plays out.

[01:20:25] So I that's kind of my main answer, I think, to your question, Cameron.

[01:20:29] And it's like, I just think that when you think JRPG, sure, maybe you think grind, maybe you think turn based battle system.

[01:20:36] But if one of your first thoughts isn't, it probably has a really killer but incredibly long story.

[01:20:42] Then like you're missing one of the key points to a JRPG.

[01:20:48] Well, I'll give each of you.

[01:20:52] I'll give each of you one last thoughts on Golden Sun before we end today's episode.

[01:20:59] Aaron, let's start with you.

[01:21:01] Okay, so if you're, I guess, if you're used to retro RPGs, you haven't played Golden Sun, you want to get around to it, absolutely play the game.

[01:21:13] But yeah, you're gonna want a guide so you know like where these djinn are, maybe not so much where like the extra equipment and stuff is.

[01:21:21] The equipment, by the way, we never got to it, but there's certain equipment at the store called like artifacts, I think is what they're called, or relics.

[01:21:27] And they have these cool special abilities in combat where like if you go to do an attack and it's supposed to be a critical hit, but it'll be like, oh, Garrett used demon wave.

[01:21:37] And he does this cool axe slash and there's like a big old shock wave that comes out.

[01:21:41] That shit's really cool.

[01:21:42] But anyway, yeah, if you dig retro RPGs, you're fine with random encounters.

[01:21:50] And yeah, you have a guide, definitely play Golden Sun.

[01:21:53] And you're gonna need to play Golden Sun The Lost Age because the game ends on a to be continued.

[01:21:58] Because it was supposed to be, fun fact, it was supposed to be on the N64 DD, but of course that got shit canned.

[01:22:05] And so yeah, they were like, okay, let's put it on GBA.

[01:22:09] Okay, that is a cool fun fact, right?

[01:22:13] It was either N64 or the N64 DD, but yeah.

[01:22:18] Yeah, because this game, the way that it ends, I was like, no.

[01:22:23] I don't know, I was like...

[01:22:24] Yeah, dude.

[01:22:25] You play it and you really expect for it to end as a really tightly finished story.

[01:22:33] And it really does not, which I think is good.

[01:22:37] I think my final thoughts on Golden Sun, as somebody who played this for the first time in 2024,

[01:22:42] I think maybe your conversation might feel a little more negative than I would want you to feel about Golden Sun and my opinion on it.

[01:22:50] But just because we've talked about things that kind of make the playthrough different or difficult,

[01:22:55] like playing it so in today's kind of expectations of how video game logic works.

[01:23:00] But I would say that like, I don't know, this game is recommended up and down by a ton of people.

[01:23:05] And I just, I really enjoyed it.

[01:23:07] I thought it was a really great game to play.

[01:23:10] It's wild though, playing this on Nintendo Switch Online,

[01:23:13] because I actually played this in docked mode quite a lot.

[01:23:16] And it looks worse because the game, I'll be totally frank.

[01:23:23] The game is designed for the Game Boy Advance.

[01:23:26] So it's designed for a tiny handheld screen.

[01:23:29] And so if you play this game, which I do highly recommend you play it,

[01:23:33] because I feel like I have a greater appreciation for just what JRPGs have been able to do

[01:23:38] and what Golden Sun means to JRPGs.

[01:23:41] Just play this in Switch handheld exclusively though,

[01:23:44] because then you don't see the pixel tricks to create specific types of shading and sort of color schemes.

[01:23:53] When it's like on full display on a TV, I was like,

[01:23:56] I'm seeing things I'm not supposed to see right now.

[01:23:59] So just a fun little tidbit, I think for you,

[01:24:01] like this game was made for handheld and the handheld experience is by far,

[01:24:06] I think superior than just playing on a massive screen.

[01:24:10] Like a retro handheld.

[01:24:12] My last playthrough earlier this year was on my Anbernic device and smooth sailing on that.

[01:24:19] So yeah, that's also a really good way to play them.

[01:24:22] I mean, it looks great.

[01:24:23] It really does.

[01:24:23] Looks better on handheld though.

[01:24:26] Steam Deck emulator.

[01:24:27] Steam Deck.

[01:24:29] Assuming you own it.

[01:24:31] Right.

[01:24:31] Because that's how that works.

[01:24:32] You have to own a physical copy.

[01:24:34] Of course, I would never emulate a game that I didn't own a physical copy of.

[01:24:40] Please don't sue me, Nintendo.

[01:24:42] Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been our discussion on Golden Sun.

[01:24:48] Once again, we thank Aaron for coming on to the show.

[01:24:54] Aaron is from the Superpod Saga podcast.

[01:24:57] We'll post some links out so you can hear his wonderful show.

[01:25:03] We'll link out to that in our podcast notes or just go search it.

[01:25:07] Go find it out there.

[01:25:09] Superpod Saga.

[01:25:11] Aaron, thanks for coming.

[01:25:13] Thanks so much for coming on the show, man.

[01:25:15] Yeah, man.

[01:25:15] Anytime.

[01:25:16] I just wish I was better with words like right on the spot, but it's been fun, man.

[01:25:22] Love this game.

[01:25:22] Love you guys.

[01:25:23] Let's go.

[01:25:24] You were better than I was.

[01:25:26] That's for sure.

[01:25:27] Honestly, and part of the reason we decided this is just a little background, I guess,

[01:25:32] for listeners.

[01:25:34] Part of the reason that we wanted to talk Golden Sun with Aaron is because of your wealth

[01:25:38] of experience with these types of games and kind of the perspective that you bring as

[01:25:42] somebody who has played this game a bunch.

[01:25:44] So, I don't know.

[01:25:45] I thought your words were excellent.

[01:25:47] Do we?

[01:25:48] Maybe we decide to play Metaphor and we bring Aaron back for that one.

[01:25:53] I know he's going to be playing that one, right?

[01:25:54] Let's do it, man.

[01:25:55] Yeah, I've already got it pre-ordered on Amazon.

[01:25:58] I knew it.

[01:25:58] Somehow I knew it.

[01:25:59] Why did I know that?

[01:26:00] I'm a big Atlas simp.

[01:26:01] Or Final Fantasy IX.

[01:26:03] Final Fantasy IX.

[01:26:05] That's the freak.

[01:26:05] Earthbound.

[01:26:06] Yeah.

[01:26:07] Whatever JRPG.

[01:26:08] I would do Final Fantasy IX.

[01:26:09] I think the Xbox version even has random encounters.

[01:26:13] It does.

[01:26:14] It has quality of life improvements.

[01:26:16] I own the Final Fantasy...

[01:26:18] They're not remasters.

[01:26:19] They're just re-releases, really.

[01:26:21] Like the HD?

[01:26:22] The Final Fantasy VII and the Final Fantasy IX on Xbox.

[01:26:27] And they do have fast forward, like infinite limit break, and random encounter turnoff.

[01:26:37] Nice.

[01:26:38] Okay.

[01:26:38] Yeah.

[01:26:39] Wherever you get to read, you get this one.

[01:26:41] Yeah.

[01:26:42] With that, we finally have to end the show.

[01:26:45] We thank you so much for listening.

[01:26:47] If you like the show, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice.

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[01:26:59] chat about indie games for literally hours.

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[01:27:07] I mean, it's on fire.

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