Frostpunk 2

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and September 19, 2024.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jake, we're putting out a lot of content.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Holy cow.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Holy cow.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a lot of news.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If you listen to the show, we are doing more content than we've ever done before.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We, you shouldn't.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You should not be sitting there feeling like, where's the next episode?

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You should have like four to listen to by now.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Also please don't get used to this new cadence of episodes.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This is kind of a perfect storm of events.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of things came in at the absolute wrong time, meaning the same time.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll really exciting opportunities.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of why we're doing so much other ones.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Do not get used to this.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Although, holy cow.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I know we had talked about this.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many games that just came out in that are still coming that it is going

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to be a full rest of the rest of the year for us.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty much on games that we're going to cover.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy out there.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It is absolutely crazy Jake.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's absolutely crazy.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: There's, we mentioned on it.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So we just didn't have a set of the actual things going to come out after this one

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: on Golden Sun with Aaron from Superstar.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: If you listen to this, that will come out later.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We actually did that yesterday, but that's going to come out later.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The reasons kind of come out later is because we got our first major key for Frostpunk

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: too.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have gotten a few keys, which we have disclosed of.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of, I would say, our first sort of for maybe a higher-ish profile game.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not like a new Nintendo game or anything, but it's a pretty high profile

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: PC game.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: This is like Frostpunk is a pretty popular PC game and Jake and I got keys for this one.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so thank you of all PR.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: They've been amazing to us.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So really grateful for them for giving us the key on this one.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And Holy cow, yeah.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So this key came in and I'm really excited for the episode that we have to talk about

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Frostpunk too.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to go back deep into our archives, we did cover Frostpunk.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: What feels like a million years ago now.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so being able to play the sequel Holy Cow, this game is pretty outrageous.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'm excited to talk about it, but I don't know.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Since we recorded yesterday, I'm trying to think of if there's any other

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: big news or anything to cover before we hop into the game.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Anything else?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Anything else going on?

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I actually wanted to follow up.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I was reading a little bit more on this Nintendo power world thing.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And, oh yeah, lost it.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So the Pat and Cameron said you're going to listen to our conversation on this with Aaron

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: after this episode comes out.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But the Pat is about the actual monster catching process.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So apparently in 2021, into Pan, the Pokemon company like file the patent for that

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: game mechanic of catching creatures in a ball.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I think this is kind of dumb that you can put patents on this.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you remember when was it the Shadow Mordor Devs put a patent on the rivalry system that

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: they had?

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The nemesis system.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The nemesis system.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, they never used it again.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So like what is even the point?

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so that's where they're coming at power world from.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just I'll be honest when I read that today, I was like, this feels a little dirty.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: This feels like a little like bullying, like really throwing a ball and catching something.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That is what you need to like be really hung up on.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling less, I don't know.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling maybe more peaved about the whole thing today than it was yesterday.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it kind of feels like he kind of feels like come on guys like really like they're not.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I could see for the designs and I thought that's what it was and we actually

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about it on the episode that's going to come out later like the the stealing

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the designs which that is to me was a little bit more on the nose, but yeah,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: actually monster catching that seems a little petty seems a little petty and honestly there's a lot of

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: games that are monster catching games now and they don't always use something like a ball to catch, but I don't know.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It just it just feels it feels like a little bit of a slippery slope feels a little too broad.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But honestly, I think a lawsuit like this is kind of designed around a settlement, right?

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're really looking to enforce a lot of stuff.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Because Nintendo is really hurting for money.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They need that those funds.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: They absolutely, I mean, they're not going to make it.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Nintendo and the Pokemon company famously, you know, living on a shoe string budget over there,

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: they need that cash and power old, you know, obviously famously flushed in cash.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Really, yeah, I don't know, flush flush with cash.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I think that's pretty much it.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: No major news, but yeah, the lawsuit switched to possibly leaked.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Looks like it's going to be a switch but with slightly better hardware, which I think is the right move.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: If it's true, if it's if it is true, I hope that that's the case that it's just a switch

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: with slightly better hardware, but who knows what Nintendo is weird.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Gonna be about, you know, this time there's going to be something wrong with the hardware that

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: is going to be really frustrating.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like the Joy-Comb, you know, sure.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The switch, yeah.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be some weird thing that's going to be annoying.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't be an Nintendo system without it.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, is there a significant Nintendo hardware jump from one gen to another?

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Where they didn't seriously mess with a controller, because I'm like that would be something

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that Nintendo would do.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: This was the Nintendo to the Super Nintendo.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: They had like the square controller and then they had just like a slightly more round controller.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was basically the same.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I honestly think like the switches was such a great device that them just making it like a little bit

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: more powerful.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I don't just, why would you mess with it?

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless they're thinking like they're not giving people enough of a reason, but the reason is going

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: to be whatever the new 3D Mario game is.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So like that's the reason.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was thinking about this today and I think Switch 2 is rumored to come out Q1 2025.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's when the new Pokemon Legends, the A game is coming out.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's when they can launch a new 3D Mario.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, nice.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the stars really are aligning for the Switch 2 to come Q1.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's when Switch came out.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Came out Q1 2017.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: To me it kind of makes perfect sense for them to do something like that because it's worked in

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the past and I don't think that Windows 2 crowded yet.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know but what I would love to see is, like if Pokemon Legends EA is the launch title

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: with the Switch 2, I want to see some good looking video gameplay.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, I don't know.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I really want to see hardware improvement because those were the rumors are kind of suggesting,

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: but I don't know.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Really if the device has backwards compatibility with my digital Switch library,

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll probably just get it whatever it is.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: My kids will thoroughly enjoy it.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well that lets dive into the episode for today.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is going to be again, once again, we got keys.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for to who's the publisher, Jay?

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: This was a 4 PR got us to keys.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We've all of PR who got us keys for Frostbunk 2.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We were able to play this over the last week.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We had about 5, 6 days to play this.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Jake and I played quite a bit.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Jake, how are we going to break down a Frostbunk 2?

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, we will be talking about Frostbunk 2 in three different categories.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The first one will be the narrative.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So just to put things out there, really clearly,

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Cameron has gotten to the end of the game pretty much here.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I have gotten through most of chapter 2,

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: so not quite just under halfway through the game.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll really just be talking probably mostly just a prologue in chapter 1

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to avoid any major spoilers, but we will be talking about different themes that are really present

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: in this story and kind of how the story works in this type of game.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Next we'll be talking about the game design, this game Holy Cow.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Lots and numbers, lots information, lots of decision-making.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Frostbunk 2, I mean obviously it's a sequel, so we'll talk a little bit about how the game has changed

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: from the first release to the sequel that's coming out on September 20th, which is when you'll

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: be listening to this for the first time.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after we talk about game design, impact on the industry, this is hilarious because

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: we've played this game before it launched and so here, in this category we kind of speculate

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and we talk about current market trends and current industry things that are happening.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Here we're really just predicting and we're speculating what Frostbunk 2 can do for the industry

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and kind of maybe a conversation might gear a little bit towards like what it says about the industry

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: right now and what Frostbunk 2 kind of represents in terms of what types of games are coming out

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and what constitutes as success for a game. So that's how we'll be talking about Frostbunk 2 tonight.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the narrative of Frostbunk 2, so this is obviously the sequel to Frostbunk 1.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a steam punk-ish world where a new Ice Age has kicked off.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And the people of seemingly the United Kingdom or London or thereabouts go further north.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember why they go further north. I can't remember that exact

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: reason, but they go north. I'm pretty sure they go north. They're going up like

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: toward for some reason. I think it's like resources or what? Anyway, they build these giant

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: huge generators that can provide heat if they are like managed appropriately and they use

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: these steam punk technology, like steam cores to power them. And in the first game your job is to

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you were the steward of this town or like the captain or I can't remember what they call it.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, you're building a city around the generator and trying to keep people alive and warm

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: like long enough to survive in the frozen wasteland. That's what you do in the first game.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the second game is literally a direct sequel to that. So what happens is

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the first game assumes that you survived. If you ever played the first game it is really difficult.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy, it is hard. It is really difficult. I actually finally about six months ago I want to say

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I sat down and I like finally pushed through and figured out the game and actually be a play

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: through. So I have to be frostbuck one once. Anyway, the sequel is like yep, okay you did it.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been 30 years you made this city. Now basically the premise of frostbuck two is,

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: can you now not only survive but thrive and build a civilization in the frost?

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And that and that whole idea and concepts like reverberates through not only kind of the story

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and how that takes place and kind of the obstacles that you run into and kind of the things

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that you see also ties in deeply into how they expanded and built up the mechanics. And it truly is like a

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: direct sequel in terms of not only the story but in sort of how things would logically

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: progress from the world that they built in frostbuck one which I thought was really cool.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it very much feels like a direct sequel and it is really cool right? So it takes place 30 years

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: after frostbuck one which came in as described and in frostbuck one the the big thing that you're

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: prepping for is the great storm which they refer to as a wide out. So just imagine a massive

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: blizzard that lasts several weeks or months and temperatures plummet and you got to hope that

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: your city, the city of New London can survive it. And so frostbuck two,

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and this isn't the trailer so we're really not spoiling much here, it brings on the

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: source of fuel is cold and if you can find really plentiful coal mines, you have a much better

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: chance at keeping your city alive. And so here in this game early on I would say so this is the

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: end of chapter one and like I said we're really not going beyond this as we're talking about story events

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is all mentioned in the trailer so you know don't point the finger at me when I'm saying this

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but you discover oil and oil is going to be the new way to heat your city. And so the game

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: presents really interesting ideas of like well oil feels like it is going to be this

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: bountiful limitless supply of energy and it will be the key way to combat the frost. And so

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of the game is hinted like hinges on different political and cultural factions within your

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: city that have very different opinions on what to do with oil and what the main mission of

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: new lundered should be as a city and the main factions that you kind of deal with are frost lunders,

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: new lunders, stall warts and then pilgrims. And they all want different things and some of these

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: people are willing to sacrifice quite a lot for the greater good and some of these people are

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: some of these factions are really geared around individual autonomy and liberty but maybe not contributing

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to survival as a society and so narratively this game really goes in the direction that you guide it.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of you know this game like horizontal is extremely wide you can take a lot of

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: different branching paths and that's one of the most I think impressive things about frostbunk

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: two building upon frostbunk one is just that there are still so many different things that can happen.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of different snippets of people who respond to different decisions that you

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: as a steward make of new lundered factions have always got something to say about what you've

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: done to the point of like well you guys just shot steward. Yes, steward. Let's steward has to

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: create that all people must now put steward. Steward, do they're breathing down your neck?

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly they're yelling they're yelling at you. Yeah never do anything right in this game even

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes when I had a faction that like approved me they're like steward you've done okay and I'm like thanks guys

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I just saved you from the freeze like cold out right. So it is a thankless job. I don't know we're being really humorous about this this game is

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: very serious. I don't think this game is this game is stressful. This is like it is a

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it is basically like managing stress and tension constantly. Like that is and that's

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and that that's that applies just as much of the mechanics as it is to the narrative that

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Jake's describing have you have these different factions and then that you have to manage their

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: desires and their wants for the society and you can imagine like when you make decisions in contrary

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: so basically on the bottom left of the screen you're going to have like different visions

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that these different factions have like for how society should progress like in the frost

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and there it's progress and then a few other ones I can't remember at the top of my head.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But progress is one of my work because that was what I was going for.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But you can imagine like when you make decisions that changes kind of the tone of the narrative

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in favor or against one or the other of these factions or if you try and do what I did in the

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: beginning and you try and balance things out which doesn't also really work because if they all

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of hit you that doesn't work either you need like one or two to really really like you

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe then the other two kind of hit you and anyway there's like a balancing act and that

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: what I love about this game like number one I think about above probably anything is like the

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: sense of atmosphere is just incredible like they just did such a great job with not only kind of

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the story beats like Jake mentioned the little pop ups where they have random civilians will have

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: little pop ups to a little peer on the screen and you click on it and it'll show like a civilian

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and they'll have like a little snippet about what happened them and then they'll be sort of events

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that happen these like sort of many story moments that pop up and they're just texts you know

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you're just reading them but then they provide like a visual they just do so many different things

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to just make the atmosphere and the world building so effective and that just comes through and

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: makes you just buy into the world it's just a cool effectively built world like I could

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I could think of so many things it's you know it's a really good and well built world when

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you can think of like so many cool things that you can do that I could see like a mini series

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: no easily like so quickly it and it would be fascinating right to watch and that the world building

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is just top notch and the atmosphere with like I was I was saying how I was joking when I was

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in the steward thing but that happens like in a game when you're pulling it's like you'll

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the little bottom of the screen like it'll have a little pop up and the factional will be

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like steward and they're trying to get your attention and it's like oh my gosh I'm like stressed out

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to keep everybody alive and like give everyone food and then they're yelling me about like

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: voting on child labor rights and my school system anyways yeah yeah I really love it because

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this is one of those things like I don't want to delve too deeply into this but it is

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: an extremely political game because this game is all about the different politics of what it is

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: to manage a city that is not unified really at all where you have a lot of different groups and

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: they're ideologically separated in terms of what they want to happen and what they feel is morally

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: correct for the city and so this game in a way it is like a personality test it is like okay

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: well if you do this is this actually gonna function who's gonna be mad at you if you have

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: favorite with a certain group or they're gonna contribute in other ways that makes sense and so

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I love this game because it's like if you firmly believe in a certain set of politics it doesn't

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: matter what it is on the spectrum this game will push back against those politics so yeah always

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it always will because this game will make you throw out what you thought were your like most

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: deeply held it is it's such a great microcosm of like of putting you in a situation where it's

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: like the whole concept of like what do you steal food if your family was start like you

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: wouldn't I wouldn't ever think of stealing ever that wouldn't even like cross my mind but

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: my family starving if you're staying am I gonna steal yeah am I am I gonna do that yeah

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: probably right and some of these things hit really close to home right we're like so here's an

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: example of one you know we've all lived through a pandemic and in my playthrough there was an

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: epidemic there was a lot of people getting sick and so one of the factions put forward this

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: hey everybody's getting sick we should have a quarantine of people of sick people to keep them away

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02]: from healthy people so and then the game shows you like okay if you do this you know sickness

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: will significantly decrease but tension will rise and so for example i was like okay we did this

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: in real life let's quarantine so I did the quarantine and sure enough sickness decreases like

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: really broadly across this spectrum but then to get one of these pop-ups it's like um there's

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: this mother who's been banging at the door of the quarantine wing of this building every day

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: see her son and she is healthy but her son is sick like what are you gonna do about this and then

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: they're like do you stick to the plan or are we gonna pass a new law that says that people can

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: um that we're gonna undo the quarantine and then I was like oh man i don't know i was like well

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll just we'll just have them quarantine and then yeah like are you gonna make everybody sick

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and then are you gonna piss off the faction that you follow their advice and then they go against

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm not jeopardizes yeah and so so with this story though i was like no i'm sorry we're

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna keep the quarantine in place and then I get this other pop-up probably week or two later

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that's like uh the boy that the mother keeps getting crying about is not responding to medication

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't know what to do with this babe like with this kid anymore because they're just getting

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: sick and sick and they're getting you know more and more reclusive and i'm like oh crap

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: because i didn't let the mom see the kid is just my fault right and so i don't know the kid

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't die i hope that i didn't get a warning that the the kid died but the thing that i really

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: want to point out here is that is just one example if you make certain policies and something will

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: happen but the game i feel like it's kind of designed in a way that like narratively it is impossible

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to get 100% approval this is not city skylines this is not city you will never get like a

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: bob i feel like 70% approval because things that you do will make other people upset so for

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: example i made this one of the faction upset because i wasn't allowing them to put sod dust in the

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: porridge so that people were more full after their meals and so they're like they were pissed because

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: they're like people are still complaining to us about being hungry and i'm like oh we're not feeling

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: well sod dust so i think that's okay right so i mean you have to make decisions you got to stick

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to your guns and i think the game is super well written in that nothing feels like like because

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you're being challenged all the time but nothing feels unrealistic or really forced in the way

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: that people respond to you like i felt like anybody in the real world would have responded in this

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: type of way in the way that i'm getting feedback from these people right now yeah that's really

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting because everything Jake just described none of that happened to me oh yeah nice yeah i

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: had completely different stuff completely different circumstances i did not vote for the also i believe

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: i can't was it a quarantine or was it a sick badge or is there both but that's a different option

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: so you can that was a different option okay you could do that oh that was great did you do that so you

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: could you could pass a lot of that i didn't i didn't do the sick badge but that that was another

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: option where it was like hey like if you're sick we're gonna mark you so when you go around in

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: public like people know to like stay away from you stay away from you that's a thing and this game

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: does not hold back with some of the options and some of these things could be really extreme

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: like the child labor stuff and whether or not kids need an education and i put this thing that

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: like no kids should get an education and at a ton of people really pissed off they're like you're

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna let the state educator kids instead of sending them to the factories with their uncle

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: with somebody that they could trust so they can help us stay warm this winter and i'm like oh shoot what

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the heck you know anyway yeah they're like what are you educating the kids for like those aren't

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: schools they're gonna use in the frosts world like they need to learn how to like make food and yeah

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the manufacturer trinkets it was like well it's kind of got a good point like okay is that like what

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you prioritize in survival do you prioritize like are we looking towards the future of the

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: civilized like is that yeah yeah so so narratively extremely well written i love this snippet

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and i love that the game is constantly challenging you morally and politically on what your decisions

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: are yeah it's deeply intertwined intertwined in the this in the game design which is

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: we've already been talking about it as we talked about the narrative but it's really is like

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: there are just narrative things that occur that you have to balance out with your with the mechanics

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of the game so like you can find yourself where the temperatures are getting really deep and then

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: the demand for heat is really high and so you have to start to make decisions on um do you pass

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: certain laws that um allow you to uh you know create certain technologies which allow you

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to like get more heat in homes but then that comes with the expensive increased squallar

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and so for example i can my city you have all these intertwining mechanics that are happening at

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: all times so you've got you have to manage materials and goods you have to manage heat output

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to manage housing for people and those are sort of the main ones that you have to

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: do but then there's also other variables that lead to tension so the jacari talked about disease

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but then they're squallar there is um just like factions like hating you because you don't vote

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for the policies that they want see it's it is a massive balancing act of building out your city

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: uh and when you build your city you're building you're not building individual buildings anymore

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you're building this is a massive city now right a city of like i think 15 30 thousand people right so

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you're actually building out like a big sort of flesh out city so when you build an individual block

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you're building a district which is like a group of houses or factories or like whatever

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that's 100 the people are gonna be in and it's all kind of from a top down high level view

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and each of those will provide a boost like to a given resource based off of um there's a

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: currency in the game and then there's number of workforce and so there's people flowing into the city

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: from the outskirts of of the wasteland which increases like the amount of money which is based on

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: there's like a kind of an interesting like sort of taxation system like heat stamps they call it

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: which is like the currency of this the frost the new London and so you're building buildings

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're expanding out through the ice and like you have to clear the ice with your uh your

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: frost what do they call frost breakers great frost breakers uh it could say you can manage all these

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: variables and if any given variable is out of whack let's say you're super short on food

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the people are gonna go hungry tension is gonna go through the roof and so any given time

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you can be at risk of losing your seat as the steward yeah and that will lead to like

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the game is over and you didn't you didn't do it i think and so it's a really stressful

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: so if you would all felt lost as Cameron's explaining all these mechanics this game is extremely

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: complicated and i think it's mechanically rich yeah mechanically rich i think is a really

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the the friendly way of saying it it's gonna feel convoluted to people who just cannot get their

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: heads wrapped around it and i i gotta say to totally this game is a massive massive challenge and as you

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: play through the prologue of it it does a fairly good job but it is still i mean i'm deep in the chapter two

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and i'm learning new mechanics in new things to balance and just in there's swite there's like

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they're like slight tweaks or variations on some of the things that you have already learned

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and but the prologue like the way that kind of lays it out is okay you find this distributor

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: which is gonna left over from the first game and the game teaches you that if you want to build

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: things to activate this to create energy aka heat you need to break the ground because everything's

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: frozen solid so you send your frostbreaker teams out and they break things up and then you find

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: different resources and you build these districts the appropriate district on that resource

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they need a funnel kind of into the generator and you turn the generator on and that's

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of like the just the very basics of this game is extract resources make sure you have enough

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: resources to keep expanding and to make sure that you're not like overspending on heat especially

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's the biggest like first and foremost it's it's cold and heat right that's what

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you're dealing with in the in the frost land in the way south but like we've been talking about

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: on top of all this this game has so many freaking numbers just all across the top and bottom

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of the screen and they all represent something else that's going on you can see how many in

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: your city's population how many workers are available how many of your people are just sick

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: generally you get to see like if you're creating a surplus or not and if that surplus is actually

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: going into storage for you to use later like numbers galore and so what well I kind of recommend

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: so I ended up playing this just on the basic mode which is called officer and getting through the

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: log and then just spend some time like early chapter one just clicking on every freaking menu

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and reading every single description otherwise you're just going to be lost in a sea of numbers

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and information and then and I recommend doing it right at the beginning of chapter one because that's

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: where you have a little bit of breathing room because then it all goes to hell afterwards dude

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and it all goes to hell there's always something going on people being getting sick or or

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: there's another cold spell coming and whatever it is yeah so every time you go up a chapter

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: things escalate and so if you're going to play this game like I recommend just slow down and

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: take your time and each chapter and before you complete like the major chapter objective

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: just kind of breathe for a minute and kind of get a handle on what you're doing because as

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: as you hit that button it's at its thorough in the kitchen sink I do with each new chapter it escalates

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and escalates and escalates and when you get to chapter four and chapter five it's like if you haven't

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: quite figured out what you're doing you're in trouble and even then like you're still on trouble

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the major the major big mechanics so there's there's all that stuff that we just

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about like managing those numbers by building buildings sort of like your basic right like you

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: build certain buildings that provide certain resources that's sort of a basic like city builder thing

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but then there's a research so there's a whole bunch of different technologies that you can research

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that can provide boost bonuses to certain things and a lot of them come with pot both positives and

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: negatives nothing is free so like nothing is free yes if you vote for if you research um I'm trying

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: to think an example like you research a specialized I think there's one called a fracture pump

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: jack which is an advanced device for like drilling oil well if you use that you're going to get

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a massive boost in your oil out of it but then your squaller is going to go through the roof

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: which basically means like your cities becoming like crazy dirty and polluted and people are

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: pissed about it and so attention like starts to go super high but the big mechanic that they've added

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: here is an entire like voting system yeah I love this and so they've got the factions right and then

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so every like eight to ten weeks I can't remember the exact cadence bottom left of the screen lights up

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's and then you go to like the new London Council Hall and it's got this really cool visual

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: where it shows all of the delegates from the different factions and then there'll be a proposal

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like on the floor and you you can vote for different laws that will move the city in a certain

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: direction I already mentioned kind of what those are there's like progress I need to just look

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: up out there three I can remember progress is one of them that's for one of the factions

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: was like hey let's conquer the frost let's build an advanced civilization like run by machines and

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll have heat like never before and then the the other factions are like no like we need to

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: embrace like living in this world and we need to like learn how to adapt I think adaptation is like

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah adaptation is one and so different laws will be put for it now you can put forth laws that you

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: want the delegates to vote for you can go to the individual factions and say hey why don't you

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: take that the floor and like you propose a law and then when those laws come you can actually

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiate with different factions to make sure that the laws that you want get passed by giving them

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: sessions like you will promise to research a certain technology or you will make sure that you

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: pass a different law that they're in favor of and the and the interesting like changing part

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of this whole system is that all these factions are at odds with what they want and so when you vote

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: for something that one faction wants another faction is going to get pissed and no company and say hey

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: we're pissed off we might be a little happier if you repeal that law that you just passed

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and so you have to start to think about well this faction is like really pissed and it's really

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: causing a ton of tension in the city I'm gonna lose my seat I'm not everyone hates me

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna have to just like repeal this law that was giving me a higher production efficiency

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so that I can make this faction happy and so this is constant balancing act yeah I love this

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because sometimes the factions will ping you and they'll say hey next council we're proposing the

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: slot and we're gonna vote on it sometimes you won't get that and then when a council meeting is

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: available you can choose a law that you want people to vote on and there's just really handy kind of

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: sheep where you look at the different laws that are currently available whether or not something

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: has been passed in a certain category or which law has been passed in that category and you can

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: think of it things that way now it is it matters a lot if factions hate you or not because of

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: a faction hates you it gains fervor against you and that means that the faction is much more likely

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to protest or to just destroy things or to hinder your progress as steward because they're so mad at

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you and so if you let factions be pissed for too long or you keep screwing them over or what you

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: promise that you'll do something you have a timer where you need to complete it like 32 weeks

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you don't trust will plummet with that faction and so you have to keep them at least neutral

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or at least that's the goal or keep them just mildly angry at you before they actually do something

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and can do right you have to find that balance and then if you have a faction that does really

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they will benefit you in some way so the new Londoners and the stalwarts with a ones that

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: like to be the most and if you can get above like neutral position towards you they'll say hey

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we want to do a rally because we like the direction that the city is going and so oftentimes

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: with those rally they'll offer something which is like more workers for the workforce or

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: which is what i always picked because i was always short on workers but like they'll kind of

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: for something like hey we'll rally together in our district people who will contribute more heat

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: stamps to to you the steward or to the city or whatever it is and sometimes the rallies come with

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: different concessions like hey we'll do this rally if you could do this thing for us and so there

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: are benefits to having people really like you i always felt like those benefits always came at a

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah this voting system and this sort of trust uh for versus them i thought was excellent

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like excellently done and then the last thing i want to mention about the negotiations is when you

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: bring a law to the council almost you could just not negotiate with anybody typically they'll be

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: like 20% of delegates in favor 10% that are against and then a bunch of undecideds and then you

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: click vote without any negotiations and you just kind of do a dice roll to see if the general

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: population is okay with a law so i actually did that quite a lot because some of the

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: concessions that people wanted to make when i was negotiating i was like no i can't promise that or

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: if i promise that like it might be good for you but it's bad for the city overall and i would say

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that the odds were actually pretty felt really split i would say it was about 50 50 just kind of throwing

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the dice of whether or not a resolution would get passed without negotiations but then yeah the

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiations are super fun you can click on them you have this concession and you have a timer

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you need to get that thing done in x amount of weeks or people are gonna be furious that you betrayed

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: their trust you broke a political promise and their trust plummet's yeah i have a couple things

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: i think i won't say like i didn't like them but they were difficult to understand i think if i had

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: any negatives to say about this game i think um there is maybe something lost

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit the fact that like because you're not actually you're building the city but like

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not actually building the city because you're not building like individual buildings and so

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: like it does remove a little bit of the city builder from it but beyond that there's just a lot

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: going on and so there's certain mechanics that for example one of them for example like in the

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiations i never i never asked them so like in the negotiations it's too excited right and so

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: usually you're gonna make a promise to them of whatever vote a law or do some research or whatever

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but then you'll be like hey i want you to vote against or vote for the next law that gets proposed

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: i just was like i can't figure out how to think about this and so i always just picked just vote

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: for like i hope it thinking that would be whatever i'm proposing i just couldn't think that far ahead

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: now that's probably just because i'm not smart enough i'm sure in the harder difficulties like

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to manipulate the crap out of that system the other thing is like you can condemn factions

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and i reached a point where like there was one of the factions that i was like i just want to get rid of

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: these guys and so i started to like condemn them but i don't think that actually did anything for me

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and again it could just be that i just don't understand the game but it just felt like it was only negative to do that

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's kind of interesting yeah anyway just come with there's just a lot of the

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: mechanic and i'm not saying these are necessarily bad mechanics or not like balance correctly

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't think i'm smart enough of a city builder player to know if they are to be honest

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: i just noticed i was like couple things that they were just kind of hard to wrap your head around

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: they i mean this game i think if i were to leverage a criticism against it i think it's

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: past really well actually for what it is because there is so much happening we haven't even talked

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: about the expansion mechanics in this game you start with new London and by the end of chapter one

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you have like one colony set up and then but you can research like logistics which gives you

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02]: travel i can't remember what the currency is called but some specific currency that you can

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: spend on exploring new locations that might have new resources or they might just have other things

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: of interest or sometimes like early in the game um you might find just like a huddle group of people

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: like 500 people freezing in the cold and you can invite them to new London or not and so i mean there's

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: this game is you said what was it mechanically rich this game is the richest mechanically there is

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so i mean going on there's levels to this stuff because games like games like

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: ammo 1800 or like crusader kings 3 or like those games are ridiculously complex this game is like

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely a step down from that but it's still like very common yeah i mean i would just say that

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: what i will i notice and this is true of frostpunk one as well is that you are spinning a lot

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of plates and that's really what this feels like spinning a lot of plates and then a faction's

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna hand you another stick with another plate and you're gonna have to kind of balance how

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: those things are going on and that's really where the engagement for this game comes from

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: is that you are trying your best to balance or to move forward through all these different mechanics

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and we've talked about all the major ones i feel like except for maybe the travel one in detail

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but there's just i don't know that's why it's so gripping is because you can't let one of those

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: plates fall and one of those plates fall everything might come crashing down with it and so you

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: want to see that victory and you want to keep moving forward i don't know i think the game design

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: is actually really well done just for me playing through frostpunk two man i have to be an

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: entirely different headspace and it's one of those games that i feel like if you start it you kind

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of got to stick with it because it is extremely difficult to come back to because then you have

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: to relearn kind of okay what are all these numbers mean what can i do to make this number go down

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: what initiatives can i do here and then you're digging through actually what i actually wanted

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to turn this this is praise there's actually not like a billion menus i felt like in this game

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: or didn't feel overwhelming with menus they did a really good job with like the tutorial menu

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: i thought yeah it was really clean clean in concise because the game doesn't want you to spend time

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: in menus and wants you to spend time looking and monitoring your sitting i think it does a good job of that

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: so there's a lot of information saturation going on but it is manageable like i did find it to be

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: i think for the for the most hardcore city builder rights i think this game is probably going to be

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: lacking some stuff i'm not one of those people though i like maybe like a little bit less

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: mechanics in favor of a more fleshed out built world with a narrative with like story elements this

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: has this is a fully fleshed out campaign yes i put about 12 hours into it and i i actually didn't

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_01]: finish the game i got i got to the final chapter and i just got too hard and i can run out of

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the time too which we didn't have much time to play this yeah but yeah it's like 12 i'm a sucker for

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: a really good like strategy campaign and a lot of these strategy games like they don't have

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: campaigns on purpose because it's all about like i want a tinker and like build my

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: my world or whatever and you can still do that in this game it has a like utopia mode which is

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: essentially just like the free free build mode but man i just i love what they did with this campaign

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and i think it's just excellent and they do so many just high-tension things jakex at the pacing

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: is is really great it moves chapter to chapter and every chapter will have like the big objective

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the overall objective is just to not lose your seat as the steward yeah or not let like the

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: city collapse those two things one of the other but then there's also going to be like a

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: a specific objective for each chapter that once you complete wall move the story forward yeah

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's really not a time limit on that specific objective so like that does relieve a

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit of the stress is that you know for like that one objective with the exception of

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: when you get in the later chapters which i want to spoil right yeah for the most part it's just like

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_02]: if you can keep the city running and the people happy until you complete the objective that's fine

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and that that's usually enough to get forward like i said i'm like deep into chapter two so

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm not quite as far as camera made it but yeah i the last thing i wanted to say about game

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: design something that camera brought up with the negotiations right it's hard to do forward thinking

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in this game and i would agree that like it takes a really intelligent person to be able to do

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: like to really foresee and plant things out in event because the game keeps you so engaged in the

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: present with all the different things that are happening like as soon i felt like as soon as i resolve

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: something with a faction you know oh suddenly there's a food shortage because this thing happened

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: this one district is getting really low on supplies and then as soon as i resolve that oh crap

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a huge like um or maybe one of my uh the expeditions has ended so i'm going to go see

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_02]: what my scouts have to tell me about different resources in this new region that i unlocked and as

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_02]: as soon as i've got that resolved all this one faction decided to okay we're gonna must drop 400 more

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02]: workers and so i'm like okay i'm gonna put them away so there's constantly things to be thinking

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: about and you're really in the present the whole time but yeah i would say really amazing game

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02]: design um i personally think it is an upgrade um in these are my final thoughts on game design

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: i think it's a direct upgrade from frostpunk one because frostpunk one was like a roguelike first

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_02]: in a campaign second and i feel like frostpunk two is a campaign first with with roguelike elements

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_02]: almost and i think some people like veterans of frostpunk one if you're playing this on the basic

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: difficulty which i did you're probably gonna think it's too easy like it's a slightly easier game

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but i actually kind of think that shift in priorities makes for a more fulfilling gaming experience that's

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_01]: how that's how i played it yeah i don't actually i might disagree with you i don't actually know

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the first one has i think you have to pick certain modes for randomization i think actually the

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: campaign is like the same set of circumstances that i'm not gonna say i could be wrong i'm not

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: but i say sorry let me clarify it feels like a roguelike because in our first episode i went back

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: oh i see where you're saying yeah in our first episode my biggest complaint about frostpunk is

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it felt like trial and error until you found out the way that the game wanted you to move forward yes

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: so sorry i want to clarify a little bit that it is a lot more punishing

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and i think this game gives you more options i'm at there's there's a lot of difficulty levels like

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you could absolutely destroy yourself on this game and it is hard that being said it did feel like

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you had more room to breathe yeah with you had a little bit more room to wear in frostpunk one

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: if you make a single decision that sets your city on a path like the wrong path you're just

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: screwed yeah there's no chance and you have to go back like several days and a save to jakes point

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_01]: moving on to impact on the industry um yeah i you know i don't know i should quickly look up

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: let's just quickly take a look here frostpunk is it one of those interesting

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: 11 bit studios yeah this is 11 bit studios and yeah so they make okay so yeah i mean they

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: they make a lot of games they're busy i also want to say that they also publish games

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: if i'm not mistaken oh sorry yes they're are they the studio and the publisher if i am not mistaken

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: they are the studio and publisher of frostpunk and frostpunk too but they published a lot of

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: other games yes yep you are correct yeah but they are they publish uh creatures of ava indica

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the thama church which i played the invincible children of morda moonlighter

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: this war of mine okay well received games yeah yes this is a this is a successful

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: development and like publishing effort but yeah that's actually really interesting that i'm

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_01]: looking at this i mean a lot of these games are quite successful for sure like this war of mine

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_01]: is one of the most popular like steam games for sure like a and then frostpunk is

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously like i think super well known at this point and then obviously with the sequel coming out

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah this isn't interesting one i i have no clue like what a game like this does

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_01]: from a financial standpoint i i don't think it has it's interesting because i don't think it

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: actually has had much of an impact on like the city builder space the city builder space

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: if you don't play city builders like you go on steam they're literally hundreds of these games

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and like a lot of them are really really really good i will say that frostpunk is probably the one

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that has the biggest emphasis on the world building and like the story narrative sort of campaign

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: elements which i'm a sucker for that's like my favorite stuff i think other city builders lean

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: much more heavily on throwing a lot more mechanics and a lot more sort of mechanical and like

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: stretch or strategic variety at you and so i don't think like that space like that city builder

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: space has gone that direction super hard in fact i think it's actually gone more the other way

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: where it's sort of a mix of city builder and like factory automation which speaking of which

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that is factory one out of all just came out right but yeah frostpunk kind of goes a different

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: direction and i think that's one of the reasons i think it has done has become very popular

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01]: is because it does that i think but in terms of an impact on the industry i don't know that

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it's changed much although i would love to see more games like this where they use interesting

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: genres like city builder and like just put them more the deeper emphasis on like the story portion i

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_01]: just think that's that's and i'm biased though because i love that stuff but anyway i know i

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: think you're right i think in this city building space right we see a lot of factory automation

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff that you're talking about which is kind of like you know number go up machine go

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_02]: for kind of that's where it pings in your brain and the other side that i see like in the indie space

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is like cozy management sims or like cozy kind of very much like let's build our utopia

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know those games certainly have their place and i'm actually playing one right now

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: gordlets i'm playing which is very much that it's like here's just like cute really fun bright

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: color vibrant pixel art and you're kind of just kind of making a city the way that you want it to

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's funny because i feel like both of those offshoots like the automation and like the cozy

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: just like let's make a utopia games they're very like let's destress like at the end of a day

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_02]: let's like go home you know for 30 minutes for an hour kind of crank some things out that my brain

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: process from a busy workday and then frost punk comes onto the scene and it's like oh you had a

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_01]: this is not the vibe out city building no this is not the vibe and there if you want that

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: there's dozens of games that can give you that that uh that specific uh feeling and i'm sorry

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody but i'm gonna say it frost punk and frost punk too they're the dark souls of city

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: builders i mean these are games and i think this is part of the reason why there's so well

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_02]: saved and why they're so hard to make is because it's a game that constantly challenges you like

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: when i play this game i also think of disco elizium like disco elizium is a game that

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: challenges you and it demands a lot of mental labor from the player to follow what's going on

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because i mean disco elizium is written in in not in a very simple way by any means right and i would say

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that frost punk too is also game that does a really amazing job of just challenging what you believe

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you think that you could put your politics to the metal and have some success like well okay

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: let's see how it goes and so i i really like it but i agree with you Cameron i'm like what

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: other city builders are really pushing their player and really challenging their player not just to kind

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: of balance a lot of different things and get 100% satisfaction and have like a green city or like

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_02]: build on every single square of the map but really challenging their player narratively about

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: okay like what convictions do you think would play out here in this type of a setting i mean it's just

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_02]: as much of like like i think i call that like a personality task but i would also just like

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02]: this is a politics sim as much as it is a city builder and the way that the responses are written

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to you the way that you get feedback as a steward or just so well written and that is constantly

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: pushing you to think i don't know like what other type of game can kind of fill the space

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: which i'm sure there are people working on those games right now but i think frostbunk and frostbunk

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: too they pretty much dominate that space of a city builder that's really pushing the player

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and has extremely complex narrative in world built inside of it yeah they just do such a good job

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: with it i'm i'm also struggling to think i'm sure there are other better examples that i'm not

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: but one one game that combines elements of city builder automation crusader kings ish even

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: like with its like politics management and like voting and negotiation and like all that

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_01]: all that stuff combined and then you throw it into this like super interestingly built world

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_01]: like frostbunk that's like holy unique like steam punk but in like a new ice age that's just

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01]: such a cool concept like that's such a dope concept that like they really they took that concept

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: they just nailed it like no one else could have possibly nailed it um dude i would i want to see

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01]: like an hp on mini series like in this world like i want like this just seemed this is like really

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: good ip like really really good ip i yeah no it is it is definitely right for something like that and

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: we i like that this is where the conversation is going because this is the film industry and the video

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_02]: game industry are just kind of going through some serious growing pains right now kind of post pandemic

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and something that i'm kind of seeing starting to bud and maybe blossom from those growing

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_02]: pains is how they're coming together because we're starting to get a lot more video game adaptations

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_02]: right like into into mini series and the movies shoe um L Paso L swear by strange scaffold

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_02]: right is getting a film adaptation for example um i've really big name like ghost sushi my right

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02]: is also getting an adaptation and uh we can talk about that on a whole other different episode

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_02]: different adaptations that have succeeded and failed and why but i i agree with you very strongly

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and that i think frost punk and frost punk too is a story that just would translate incredibly

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: well to the screen and you could do it in a variety of ways i mean there's so many different

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like political thrillers already and this one just kind of offers an extremely interesting

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02]: world to kind of look at and in this in this you know moment we're funding and financing

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and all this stuff gets really difficult for games and for publishers i just kind of wonder like

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: does this does this really help like and i would love to know like if in strange scaffold like having

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the L Paso Swell elsewhere adaptation coming out is that a viable solution to kind of help

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: studios and publishers out of this money pit that they're currently in is it is i don't know is that

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: another way to be like to reach these insane levels of profitability that people are hoping for um i

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: know that frost punk too is gonna release on pc game pass which means okay this is another way

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're trying to solve kind of their the current financial situation and i'm sorry

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody we always come back to this topic but it's obviously something that we think about quite a lot

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_01]: some kind of rambling well we talk about the industry in our podcast so yeah and that's kind of what's

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: happening but i don't know those are just kind of my thoughts based on your comment there were like

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah i mean that that whole world is super complicated and obviously like no

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_01]: film or media studios gonna pick up anything unless they feel like it has the

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: popular it's why they're making a crappy Minecraft movie right but um that's another conversation

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah because it's gonna make a billion dollars even if it sucks and jackbox in it though he's cool

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah no i i think in terms of like an industry impact on games industry i hope as a whole

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't know this game like moves the needle in any way but i do think it's doing really interesting

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: things i do i don't really think of it as an indie game this is like this is definitely

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't know if it's it qualifies as triple a but it's got like really strong production values

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and if nothing else it does a really amazing job at making you feel like it's expensive without

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: being expensive which i don't it just is like i'm saying i'm trying to struggle to like figure out

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: right way to say that but like they just do a lot that just sparks your kind of imagination and

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't know yeah i would say my phrasing maybe of what you're getting at is that it we're

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna have a six year gap between frostbunk and frostbunk two and that time was extremely well spent

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: right like making this game yeah frostbunk two has been delayed and there have been some

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: things going on there but they also did three expansions for frostbunk that's all right for

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: DLCs yeah for the first game yeah that's true or for frostbunk i know the treatment to say yeah um

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah you're right there so they did some other things for frostbunk but yeah i think the time

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you could tell there's a lot of care that goes into how this game works and um yeah i don't know

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: i had a really good time with it it is it's wild because it is fun but in the moment i'm

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: abiding my nails dude i'm like dude i'm gonna piss off this faction and if they protest right now

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: this city's done for or like wait a second why has this fuel pipeline suddenly shut down what is

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: going on in them scrambling but dang it like it is a really fantastically past a packaged game

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and i'm a big fan yep like Jake said gonna be on PC game pass um if you have employed a city builder

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: at all this is even a really a city builder i don't even know what i was close with but like

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: put it on easy mode and just go in and just kind of like experience of this world it is i will say

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it's stressful and it's meant to be like it is meant to be like sort of a high anxiety game in a good

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: way but if you have an experience i would recommend this game to anyone just like kind of experience

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of that interesting world that they put together here yeah and i know the first one is on

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: consoles but man that just seems like that would be so hard i played it i that's how i played it i

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: played it uncontroller and folks just play this on a computer like yeah you gotta find a computer

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: for this there's just way too much and it's infinitely simpler to just click on everything right

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: actually just pulled us up real quick uh frostpunk one is currently on sale for three dollars

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: in that deal ends in uh let's see you're gonna be listening to this on the 20th i think it

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: ends sometime on the 21st so it's a narrow window i'm guessing it's like frostbunk plus all

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: the DLCs for eight bucks or something or 10 bucks let's see uh frostpunk base game is three

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: dollars on steam the bundle is eight fifty six so like nine bucks and then the game of the year

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: edition which i think comes with the soundtrack is like 11 bucks and that's interesting because

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the first game one of the DLCs is actually a prequel to the events of the main campaign which is

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty good so it's like constructing the generator and you use like prisoners to do anyway it's all

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah frostbunk too uh highly recommended yeah Jake any other final thoughts on this game

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: i also highly recommend it i want you guys to know that i play on not like a super high end but

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not like a low end computer and it ran great um i feel like this game probably plays really

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: well on a lot of different machines um however of course if you have a high end rig you can

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: take advantage of that for this game but zero hiccups while playing it like it was an incredibly

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: polished experience for me i don't know about for you yeah i've never any bugs to speak of at all

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: well with that ladies and gentlemen this has been another episode of the period of onus podcast

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: talking frostpunk two once again we want to thank uh the publishing arm 11 bit studios and

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: partners or whatever that got us keys and yeah we're super excited to get this one early play

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and get it out to you before the game is actually even out which is kind of wild so if you're

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: listening to this hopefully this helps you decide if this is something you want to get i personally

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: recommend it or just go grab PC game pass and just play it there um uh if you like the show

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like what you heard today go leave us a review on your podcast platform a choice helps people find

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