Balatro

[00:00:00] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Pre-Order Bonus podcast. I'm

[00:00:13] one of your hosts, Cameron Warren, and I'm joined as always by the Pixel Professor, the

[00:00:20] indie game king, Jacob Bartholomew Price. Jake, your middle name is not actually Bartholomew.

[00:00:30] How are you doing? Pixel Professor, I could get behind that one. I could definitely

[00:00:34] get behind that one. That's catchy, sounds smart, right? Pixel Professor, you heard

[00:00:40] it here first. Yeah, that works. You need a, we need a new, like a tone when we do your

[00:00:49] introduction now to add. Something like 8-bit chiptune, right? We need something upbeat,

[00:00:57] because gaming news this week is an absolute dumpster fire. This week sucked pretty bad.

[00:01:08] This week sucked, like I think it's all sucked, right? Cause we've had, what's the

[00:01:15] timeline here? What's the, what's the timeline? Xbox buys Activision. Xbox goes through

[00:01:22] like a year of we're gonna buy Activision. The governments don't want us to buy Activision.

[00:01:28] Okay, the governments are gonna let us buy Activision. Okay, we bought Activision.

[00:01:35] Hey, we're all one big happy family and we're all excited. Oh, actually, we're not that

[00:01:41] happy because we're firing a whole bunch of people, like 1500 people. And then

[00:01:46] like three months later or six months later, I can't, how long ago was that? Two months?

[00:01:50] Three months? Yeah, it finalized at the beginning of this year. Isn't that right?

[00:01:56] Yeah, so three, four, I guess we're in May. So four and a half months ago.

[00:02:05] And now we wake up on Tuesday morning and we hear that our King in Austin, Redfall,

[00:02:16] shut down. Tango Gameworks shut down and two other Xenomax studios shut down, closed.

[00:02:28] People lost their jobs. Jake, the internet is up in arms over this one.

[00:02:35] People are demanding that the Xbox leadership should step down. They should be

[00:02:41] fired. This corporation is disgusting. This is the worst decision they've ever

[00:02:49] made. Xbox is dead as a platform. Like, where are we on this?

[00:02:54] Man, I have been reading way too much about all this. First and foremost,

[00:02:59] this really sucks for the people who just lost their jobs. Sucks for people

[00:03:02] who are mid project or mid pitch from these studios. Roundhouse Studios is

[00:03:07] the one that kind of got absorbed into Xenomax so they're a little safer

[00:03:11] than the other ones. And so of course, our hearts go out to all these people

[00:03:14] who find themselves suddenly out of work in an increasingly volatile

[00:03:17] industry. That sucks a lot. You all are bearing the brunt of everything

[00:03:21] that's happening here. This is a giant, giant mess. The more I look into

[00:03:27] this, the more the lack of transparency of how businesses operate and the

[00:03:36] lack of understanding of how businesses operate on part of the consumer

[00:03:40] have kind of fed into this giant whirlwind of anger, frustration,

[00:03:47] etc. Some of this stuff seems relatively inexplicable. And I'm grateful

[00:03:52] that we're actually tackling this a few days later because I've been able

[00:03:55] to pull out some things that might be able to shed a little bit more

[00:03:58] insight on what's happening. I was telling Cameron before we started

[00:04:01] recording, I have seven different articles kind of pulled up here

[00:04:04] that are explaining from different angles what we do know about the

[00:04:08] situation at Xbox. But let me tell you, man, it just sucks. Nobody's

[00:04:12] winning. Nobody wins from all this. And this is not console war fodder,

[00:04:17] folks. This is this is just developers and games that are getting shut

[00:04:21] down that could have been awesome. So it's a sad thing to see. But

[00:04:26] holy cow. Yeah, all the attention has been on Arcane Austin and

[00:04:31] Tango Gameworks, right? Two other studios were involved in this as

[00:04:36] well. They're getting less attention and that's a little painful to see

[00:04:38] because it's like, hey, these people are also being impacted even if

[00:04:42] they didn't make your fan favorite game prey. Don't ignore them,

[00:04:46] please. But man, I don't know where do we start? We could talk

[00:04:50] about Tango. We could talk about Austin Arcane, whatever it is,

[00:04:53] I'm going to I know I'm long winded right now, folks, but I

[00:04:56] am going to try to keep it brief. Because eventually we're going to

[00:04:58] talk about Bellatro, which is a good time. So please stick around

[00:05:01] for that.

[00:05:02] Yeah, we will keep it upbeat.

[00:05:05] Because there's some great news this week of some amazing games

[00:05:09] released and we're going to talk about one of the best games of

[00:05:11] the year as well.

[00:05:13] In Bellatro. But yeah, I'll give a couple introductory thoughts.

[00:05:19] I think there's two sides to this. First off, let me start

[00:05:23] and echo what Jake said that whenever somebody loses their

[00:05:27] livelihood, that freaking sucks. Yeah. And there's just no way

[00:05:32] around that. And so I have 100% empathy for people who lost

[00:05:38] their jobs, who work for a multi trillion dollar company and

[00:05:42] don't really need to lose their jobs. They just they

[00:05:44] really don't. They really don't. But that's not the way

[00:05:48] the world works. And so I think there's two sides of this

[00:05:54] coin. There's actually three sides of this coin and one

[00:05:56] that's not being really brought up a lot. I'll kind of

[00:05:59] throw these out there and then Jake, you could chime in on

[00:06:01] these. So the first one is it sucks that people lost their

[00:06:06] jobs. That's never cool. That sucks. And especially in this

[00:06:10] case, when it's a trillion dollar company, it's an unjust

[00:06:12] crappy situation. Yeah, there's no way around that.

[00:06:16] That being said, these decisions are not made in a

[00:06:19] vacuum. These are made because of the realities of

[00:06:23] the business that Xbox has put itself into. They just bought

[00:06:28] a 70 billion dollar company and so they have turned as an

[00:06:34] article put it that and or as a tweet put it, I don't know

[00:06:37] if it was IG and I can't remember who was the eye of

[00:06:39] Sauron is on Xbox because Xbox used to be like a side

[00:06:44] project for Microsoft. Yeah, because it's such a small and

[00:06:47] it still is an incredibly small portion of their

[00:06:50] business. But when you buy a 70 billion dollar company in

[00:06:53] Activision, suddenly the board is going, oh, hey, what's

[00:06:58] this line item? Xbox? Like, are you guys going to do

[00:07:02] something here? Because the rest of our company makes

[00:07:06] like 300% profit increases every year. Like, what do you

[00:07:10] guys do? And so Phil Spencer and Matt Booty and all these

[00:07:15] people who have put forward for the past several years

[00:07:19] this were the good guys were gamers. We were gamers

[00:07:24] through and through. We love you guys like we're all about

[00:07:27] creating these experiences. They're in a new situation.

[00:07:30] This is a different situation than they were in the last

[00:07:33] few years. And the strategy has shifted. The business

[00:07:37] realities have shifted. The market has shifted. There's

[00:07:41] way more pressure to perform. There's way more

[00:07:44] pressure pressure to produce way higher profits than ever

[00:07:47] before. So anything that is not going to meet that cannot

[00:07:51] fit into that box is just flat out going to be cut. So if

[00:07:56] I'm Ninja Theory, if I'm double fine, if I'm in exile,

[00:08:04] if I'm any one of these studios and Ninja Theory being

[00:08:08] the one that I'm kind of freaking out about because

[00:08:10] they have what Xbox has marketed as like a marquee

[00:08:14] title for the Xbox for the past several years coming out

[00:08:17] in literally two weeks and there's almost no marketing

[00:08:21] for this thing. So all that is there and it's like,

[00:08:27] okay, you can kind of come to an analytical conclusion

[00:08:31] of like why Tango gets shut down, which is whatever

[00:08:35] they pitched wasn't good enough. The budget was going

[00:08:38] to be too high. The risk was too high. They their

[00:08:43] creative lead is gone. That didn't make sense. Xenomax was

[00:08:47] probably drowning under, you know, the, you know, having

[00:08:51] a central team to support all of those external studios.

[00:08:54] And so they cut them and then Arcane Austin, obviously

[00:08:56] that's Redfall. Redfall was the biggest flop of last

[00:09:00] year. Flop is an understatement. And so yeah,

[00:09:03] so from an analytical standpoint like that all makes

[00:09:05] sense. But yeah, it sucks. Jake, I've talked too much.

[00:09:10] Yeah, let's let's get into some of the details here

[00:09:12] from things that I've read. So IGN's Ryan McCaffrey

[00:09:16] put out a really interesting article today. So this

[00:09:19] is pretty fresh. It's titled Phil Spencer in the

[00:09:22] battle for Xbox's soul, whatever title it gets

[00:09:26] people interested. But I think there's some really

[00:09:30] good points. So he interviews two long term Xbox

[00:09:33] employees there and it's tricky because listen,

[00:09:38] you have Xbox leadership and you've mentioned some

[00:09:40] of the big names there, right? Phil Spencer,

[00:09:42] Matt Booty, Sarah Bond. Those are kind of the

[00:09:44] three that immediately come to mind. And I think

[00:09:46] one of the best points that Ryan McCaffrey makes

[00:09:48] in this article is that nobody at Microsoft and

[00:09:52] here I want to separate Microsoft from Xbox for

[00:09:54] a second. Nobody at Microsoft thought that the

[00:09:58] Activision Blizzard purchase would take nearly

[00:10:00] as long as it did. So that's part of the

[00:10:03] reason why people it to me it almost makes me

[00:10:07] wonder if that acquisition had gone through

[00:10:11] like 10 months earlier, would have we been in a

[00:10:15] position at Xbox to not access these two studios

[00:10:19] because 10 months ago, like a year plus ago,

[00:10:22] right? The market conditions were so much

[00:10:27] less risk adverse. I'm not phrasing that

[00:10:30] properly. They were less concerned. The big

[00:10:32] dogs were about risk and gaming because all

[00:10:34] the numbers still looked really hot. Still

[00:10:37] coming out of, you know, post covid and your

[00:10:40] dealing with that, but it's not nearly as bad

[00:10:42] as it looks now. And it just makes me wonder if

[00:10:45] folks at Microsoft wouldn't have been pushing

[00:10:47] these line items so hard on Xbox. But that's

[00:10:52] not the reality. So it doesn't do much good

[00:10:54] to kind of speculate on this alternative

[00:10:56] history when it comes down to the fact where

[00:10:58] it's like, okay, now Microsoft and that's

[00:11:00] what this article is really getting out from

[00:11:02] Ryan McCaffrey is okay. To what degree is

[00:11:06] Microsoft saying, alright, Xbox, you made a

[00:11:10] big purchase. This is better. This had

[00:11:12] better pay off. And to your point, other

[00:11:15] Microsoft products, they're always turning

[00:11:18] huge profits consistently. They're not nearly

[00:11:20] as fickle as as as gaming. Right? Like

[00:11:25] the Microsoft Office suite is not as fickle

[00:11:27] as Xbox Game Pass. It just isn't. It is

[00:11:30] so much more predictable. And I think

[00:11:32] forecasts there are probably much more

[00:11:34] accurate.

[00:11:36] But Microsoft Azure cloud has made like

[00:11:40] record profits for the last like five to

[00:11:43] six years running and has like 100% profit

[00:11:47] margins. Yeah, which in the gaming business

[00:11:50] is essentially impossible.

[00:11:52] Yeah. And I think this is this is a huge

[00:11:54] part of the problem is it does Microsoft

[00:11:57] look at Xbox and think it's supposed to

[00:11:58] be as your yes, of course they do. And

[00:12:02] shareholders. Yeah, they shareholders are

[00:12:04] like, oh, cool. Gaming makes a lot of

[00:12:06] money. Great. They should be meeting these

[00:12:08] numbers from this completely separate

[00:12:09] industry that's only related because it's

[00:12:11] tech. Right. And so I think honestly,

[00:12:14] the heart of the problem and we could

[00:12:16] even end the conversation here is that

[00:12:19] this, you know, increasing profit year

[00:12:22] after year for different industries is

[00:12:26] is really a cultural problem that exists

[00:12:29] in these massive companies on the C

[00:12:31] suite level. And that doesn't change

[00:12:33] because of consumer opinion.

[00:12:35] They don't give two cents that people

[00:12:38] are mad about Tango Gameworks has gone.

[00:12:40] They simply do not care because numbers

[00:12:42] go up shareholders happy. Right.

[00:12:44] And if we really want to see the

[00:12:46] kind of change where people are going

[00:12:48] to think, okay, but HiFi rush to

[00:12:50] that's going to be a huge hit.

[00:12:52] The sequel is going to be a huge hit.

[00:12:53] Give them time. Let the studio do it.

[00:12:55] Even though it's a ways out, give

[00:12:57] them money. Right. If you want to see

[00:12:58] something like that change, it's

[00:12:59] legislative. I'm sorry.

[00:13:01] And this is a little more political

[00:13:03] than maybe we're used to here on

[00:13:05] the preorder bonus podcast.

[00:13:07] But if you want to see that, there

[00:13:08] has to be some sort of legislative

[00:13:10] pressure on a C suite to actually

[00:13:11] allow for things like that to happen

[00:13:13] because otherwise they will never

[00:13:15] care that your favorite studio that

[00:13:17] made your favorite game no longer

[00:13:19] exists because they're still making

[00:13:21] money. So like I said, we can

[00:13:23] end the conversation there stemming

[00:13:25] from that. We get this ripple

[00:13:27] effect of OK, now Microsoft is

[00:13:30] pressuring Xbox.

[00:13:32] OK, where can you save money?

[00:13:34] And then the two are

[00:13:36] Cain Austin and Tango, you know,

[00:13:38] GameWorks seem completely opposite

[00:13:39] engine. The spectrum, right?

[00:13:41] You have one that released a

[00:13:42] critical smash success, one

[00:13:44] that Redfall man biggest flop

[00:13:47] those touted as like what one

[00:13:49] of Xbox's first triple A $70

[00:13:51] games. And it was going to

[00:13:53] justify the $70 price.

[00:13:55] And it's really simply did not.

[00:13:57] And so the pressure is going to

[00:13:59] be there now.

[00:14:01] What I like about the Ryan McCaffrey

[00:14:02] article is that this doesn't give

[00:14:04] Phil Spencer free pass.

[00:14:06] We can still be annoyed at him

[00:14:07] because he's supposed to go up

[00:14:08] to bat for these studios.

[00:14:10] But the reality is that we simply

[00:14:12] don't know what the conversation

[00:14:13] is between Xbox and Microsoft

[00:14:15] here.

[00:14:16] We just simply don't know.

[00:14:18] And it would be awesome.

[00:14:20] Phil Spencer can never say that

[00:14:21] publicly because shareholders would

[00:14:23] execute him publicly if he

[00:14:25] said, hey, I went up to bat in

[00:14:26] this meeting and this is why I

[00:14:27] said an Xbox or Microsoft shut

[00:14:29] me down.

[00:14:30] That will never happen.

[00:14:31] Investors simply do not care about

[00:14:33] consumer opinion.

[00:14:34] And so they are willing to let

[00:14:35] people at Xbox take

[00:14:37] the cultural social fall,

[00:14:40] take the PR and deal

[00:14:42] with that as long as their

[00:14:43] pockets are lined.

[00:14:44] OK, end of rant.

[00:14:47] I mean, yeah, I agree with Ryan

[00:14:48] here like that is

[00:14:54] let me address people saying

[00:14:56] like the leadership team should

[00:14:58] step down. I've even seen an

[00:14:59] article saying this guys, this

[00:15:00] would be way, way

[00:15:02] worse.

[00:15:05] Way worse.

[00:15:07] Do you want a Bobby Kodak in

[00:15:09] charge of Xbox?

[00:15:11] Because there's about 10 Bobby

[00:15:12] Kodak's for every one Phil

[00:15:14] Spencer. And I'm not saying Phil

[00:15:15] Spencer is like an angel or

[00:15:16] something or like the

[00:15:18] second coming of Christ or

[00:15:20] anything like that. But he's

[00:15:21] I think he's like a dude who

[00:15:23] actually likes video games.

[00:15:25] And I think he's like proven

[00:15:26] that over the years

[00:15:28] and a lot of like

[00:15:29] conversations and interviews

[00:15:30] and he's been like very upfront

[00:15:32] and forward. And look, I don't

[00:15:33] know the guy personally,

[00:15:34] obviously, but through

[00:15:35] everything I've heard and read

[00:15:37] and kind of seen, like

[00:15:38] I think he cares about this

[00:15:39] stuff, but he's he lives

[00:15:41] in the real world.

[00:15:42] He's an executive at

[00:15:43] Microsoft who reports

[00:15:45] and he reports to Satya

[00:15:47] Nadella. He doesn't report to

[00:15:48] somebody under here, reports

[00:15:49] directly to Satya.

[00:15:51] So he has to go to Satya and

[00:15:53] like give the report

[00:15:54] and Satya is like, hey, you're

[00:15:56] our worst performing business

[00:15:58] like and you just spent

[00:15:59] seventy billion dollars.

[00:16:02] You're our worst performing

[00:16:03] business. You just spent

[00:16:04] seventy billion dollars like

[00:16:06] you need to fix it or you're

[00:16:07] going to be fired.

[00:16:11] So, yeah, look, does

[00:16:12] it suck for Phil?

[00:16:13] I think it does suck for

[00:16:14] Phil. Does it suck as

[00:16:16] as bad as for the people

[00:16:17] who got laid off at

[00:16:18] Tango Game Works and at

[00:16:20] Arcane Austin? No, absolutely

[00:16:21] not. Those people just lost

[00:16:22] their livelihoods.

[00:16:24] Hopefully they got great

[00:16:25] severance packages.

[00:16:26] I have no idea about any of

[00:16:27] that. But but yeah,

[00:16:29] I mean, this is the reality

[00:16:30] situation. I think it's

[00:16:32] this would be way worse.

[00:16:33] Again, there's 10 Bobby

[00:16:34] Codex for every one Phil

[00:16:35] Spencer. If you had Bobby

[00:16:36] Codec running this,

[00:16:38] every studio would just be

[00:16:39] pumping. They would be turning

[00:16:40] Call of Duty into like

[00:16:42] Fortnite, the platform

[00:16:44] and just have all the games

[00:16:45] like just be branches off

[00:16:46] Call of Duty

[00:16:49] or something akin to that,

[00:16:50] which is maybe what there

[00:16:51] might be actually doing.

[00:16:53] You know, per Matt Booty's

[00:16:54] comments of like platforms

[00:16:56] are actually bigger than

[00:16:57] consoles now, like

[00:16:59] Fortnite, which

[00:17:01] you know, that was his big

[00:17:02] quote from his last

[00:17:04] that last like weird podcast

[00:17:06] that they did was like

[00:17:07] platform. Any one platform

[00:17:08] can be bigger than

[00:17:10] the consoles, which is

[00:17:11] probably what they're

[00:17:12] working towards.

[00:17:12] But I think another

[00:17:14] elephant in the room I want

[00:17:15] to address is the

[00:17:15] performance of Hi-Fi Rush.

[00:17:17] Hi-Fi Rush obviously was a

[00:17:18] critical darling.

[00:17:19] I think the last reported

[00:17:20] number is that like three

[00:17:22] million people played it.

[00:17:23] That number I have a backup

[00:17:25] for it. Hold on.

[00:17:26] Three million as of

[00:17:28] August twenty twenty three.

[00:17:29] So it's about eight months

[00:17:31] after it launched, right?

[00:17:32] Surprise launch in January

[00:17:33] or February of that year.

[00:17:35] And that was shared across

[00:17:37] purchases and game pass

[00:17:39] users.

[00:17:41] Yeah, so didn't make very

[00:17:42] much money.

[00:17:43] I mean, just just to put

[00:17:44] into perspective like the

[00:17:46] crappy Mario Party game

[00:17:48] Nintendo just released their

[00:17:49] numbers in that game

[00:17:50] made sold 17 has sold 17

[00:17:52] million companies in its

[00:17:53] lifetime.

[00:17:56] Now, obviously, Nintendo is

[00:17:57] an anomaly, right?

[00:17:58] So three million like,

[00:18:00] OK, that's OK.

[00:18:01] Maybe half those are game

[00:18:02] pass or more than half.

[00:18:04] The problem is, is like the

[00:18:06] reason game pass exists.

[00:18:07] So this was supposed to be

[00:18:10] the point of game pass is

[00:18:11] that you can have games

[00:18:12] like Hi-Fi Rush and then

[00:18:13] that kind of buoys the

[00:18:14] service.

[00:18:15] But game pass has missed

[00:18:17] its target by tens of

[00:18:18] millions of users.

[00:18:20] And so game pass is not

[00:18:22] really functioning the way

[00:18:25] that that failed in team

[00:18:27] wanted wanted to.

[00:18:29] They have not hit their big

[00:18:31] game per quarter.

[00:18:32] Still, we're still waiting

[00:18:34] for the dominoes to fall.

[00:18:37] Still waiting.

[00:18:37] It's still not happening.

[00:18:39] It's not working.

[00:18:41] So anyway, all these

[00:18:42] pressures and all these

[00:18:43] things happening, I think

[00:18:45] it would be way worse if

[00:18:47] this team was not in

[00:18:48] place. I still like this

[00:18:50] team.

[00:18:52] I hate that people get fired.

[00:18:53] I hate that that's the way

[00:18:54] that the world is.

[00:18:55] But that's just the reality.

[00:18:56] Like it is what it is.

[00:18:59] Jake, let's address the

[00:19:01] the bigger elephant in

[00:19:02] the room, which I think

[00:19:03] is the remaining Xbox

[00:19:05] studios.

[00:19:07] Who else is on the

[00:19:08] chopping block?

[00:19:09] Because to be honest

[00:19:10] with you, like I'm

[00:19:12] looking really hard at

[00:19:13] Ninja Theory right now.

[00:19:15] OK, I think there's a

[00:19:17] few things that we need

[00:19:18] to consider.

[00:19:18] One, Xbox has said

[00:19:21] that other cuts are

[00:19:22] coming.

[00:19:23] Two, that everything

[00:19:26] that's happened this week

[00:19:27] is unrelated to Activision

[00:19:29] Blizzard.

[00:19:30] This is entirely within

[00:19:33] Zenimax, right?

[00:19:35] So this makes me think

[00:19:37] that this is still part

[00:19:38] of integration of

[00:19:40] Zenimax into Microsoft.

[00:19:42] Right.

[00:19:43] So the Activision Blizzard

[00:19:44] stuff hasn't been

[00:19:45] touched. I think what we

[00:19:46] can if you want to be

[00:19:47] optimistic here,

[00:19:49] the optimism I think

[00:19:50] would be that OK,

[00:19:51] Zenimax, Bethesda stuff,

[00:19:53] that's all done.

[00:19:54] They're not cutting

[00:19:55] any more from there.

[00:19:56] They've done what they've

[00:19:57] had to do.

[00:19:58] And now it's time to look

[00:19:59] at Activision Blizzard

[00:20:00] and everything that's

[00:20:01] going on there.

[00:20:02] Well, we know that King

[00:20:03] is going to be fine

[00:20:04] because King makes

[00:20:06] so much money and

[00:20:07] it's speculated that

[00:20:08] that's the number one

[00:20:08] reason that Xbox

[00:20:10] even bought Activision

[00:20:11] Blizzard.

[00:20:12] Yeah, they bought

[00:20:13] they didn't even buy it.

[00:20:14] Right. I mean, all the

[00:20:15] conversation has been

[00:20:15] around COD, but it's

[00:20:17] mobile gaming, folks,

[00:20:18] mobile gaming.

[00:20:18] There's so much money

[00:20:19] in that. Right.

[00:20:20] So King is fine.

[00:20:21] Blizzard is fine.

[00:20:22] We know that Microsoft

[00:20:24] slash Xbox has already

[00:20:25] cut that massive

[00:20:26] survival project,

[00:20:27] survival game project

[00:20:28] that Blizzard was

[00:20:29] cooking up for the past

[00:20:30] six years.

[00:20:32] We know that Toys for Bob

[00:20:33] has already gone

[00:20:33] independent,

[00:20:34] but has penned from

[00:20:36] what I understand,

[00:20:36] some sort of deal

[00:20:37] with Xbox for whatever

[00:20:39] game that they're releasing.

[00:20:40] It's teased to be

[00:20:41] Spyro 4, which please,

[00:20:43] that would be amazing.

[00:20:44] Right.

[00:20:44] So Toys for Bob

[00:20:45] got the heck out of Dodge.

[00:20:46] Right.

[00:20:47] So they're fine.

[00:20:48] They made the right call.

[00:20:49] They made the right call.

[00:20:50] They went independent.

[00:20:51] They signed a deal with Xbox

[00:20:52] and remained on good

[00:20:53] business terms.

[00:20:54] It seems like there

[00:20:55] and they've got funding,

[00:20:56] you know, for whatever

[00:20:57] their next project is.

[00:20:58] And so I don't know, man.

[00:21:00] Vicarious Visions,

[00:21:02] I think I'd be really worried about.

[00:21:03] Right.

[00:21:05] Let's see.

[00:21:05] Isn't Raven still a studio?

[00:21:07] And it or is that dissolved?

[00:21:08] I can't even remember.

[00:21:09] They're a Call of Duty studio.

[00:21:11] They're Call of Duty.

[00:21:12] So we can presume

[00:21:13] them to be safe.

[00:21:13] Sledgehammer, Raven,

[00:21:15] Infinity Ward are like

[00:21:17] the three Call of Duty studios.

[00:21:19] And then Vicarious Visions

[00:21:21] was essentially turned into

[00:21:22] a Call of Duty support.

[00:21:23] So they still leave around even.

[00:21:26] Can you remember this point?

[00:21:28] Wait, did they get rid of Vicarious?

[00:21:30] No, they just they dissolved it.

[00:21:33] I think that's what happened.

[00:21:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:21:35] Yeah.

[00:21:38] I'm trying to look up all the studios

[00:21:40] because I can't remember all of them.

[00:21:42] But honestly, that's where my concerns are now.

[00:21:45] Ninja Theory, Obsidian, Double Fine, people,

[00:21:47] I think, and rightly so,

[00:21:48] are concerned for those studios.

[00:21:50] I think out of all those Ninja

[00:21:52] theories, the one that

[00:21:53] merits more more concerned

[00:21:55] because they've been working on Hellblade

[00:21:56] two for a crazy long time.

[00:21:59] The game that they put out

[00:21:59] before was Bleeding Edge, which listen,

[00:22:03] in an alternate reality,

[00:22:05] Ninja Theory died after Bleeding Edge

[00:22:06] the same way that Arcane Austin

[00:22:08] died after Redfall, right?

[00:22:10] Dude, I mean, I think

[00:22:11] I think Ninja Theory

[00:22:12] is being sent to die right now.

[00:22:14] Like there's no marketing push.

[00:22:16] There's literally no marketing

[00:22:17] push for this game.

[00:22:18] They just started it, supposedly.

[00:22:21] Yeah, like we're we're two weeks out.

[00:22:23] You're too late.

[00:22:25] Like you're where's where's the budget?

[00:22:28] That is signaling to me

[00:22:30] that they don't have confidence

[00:22:32] in the widespread adoption of this release.

[00:22:36] It's a technical showpiece

[00:22:37] for Game Pass at this point,

[00:22:40] which probably cost a fric ton of money

[00:22:43] because this game cost so much money

[00:22:46] yet because it's got a fric ton

[00:22:47] of bells and whistles in it.

[00:22:48] It looks crazy from a graphics perspective,

[00:22:51] which probably cost a fortune

[00:22:53] in cinematics and mocap and,

[00:22:57] you know, the most advanced graphics,

[00:22:59] whatever they've stuffed in this thing.

[00:23:01] And it's been in development

[00:23:03] for how long now, Jake?

[00:23:05] Seven years. Yeah.

[00:23:07] Then supposedly it's a 50 dollar title,

[00:23:09] supposedly the same length as the last game,

[00:23:12] which is about eight hours.

[00:23:14] So this isn't even like a mass market,

[00:23:18] you know, third person action game.

[00:23:19] This is like a niche.

[00:23:22] I don't know, triple a sort of technical

[00:23:25] showpiece, which I think is probably

[00:23:28] going to be pretty fric cool

[00:23:29] and like a great game.

[00:23:30] But is it going to drive Game Pass subs?

[00:23:32] Nope. Is it going to get a ton of players?

[00:23:35] I mean, maybe as much as high

[00:23:37] if I rush, but that's not enough.

[00:23:39] Well, in the as this brings me back

[00:23:41] to what I find to be one

[00:23:42] of the more upsetting parts

[00:23:43] of this whole Xbox debacle,

[00:23:45] which is the matte booty tone

[00:23:46] def quote, which came out a day

[00:23:48] after Tango was shut down.

[00:23:50] Oh, my gosh.

[00:23:51] I don't know how this how do you?

[00:23:54] I don't know how they said this.

[00:23:56] I don't know what Xbox.

[00:23:57] I don't know if it's the PR

[00:23:59] that fed him this line,

[00:24:00] if he was just on the spot

[00:24:01] and said the dumbest thing ever.

[00:24:03] But needing smaller, critically acclaimed

[00:24:05] games to get prestigious awards, right?

[00:24:07] Which is, you know,

[00:24:09] exactly what Hi-Fi Rush was.

[00:24:11] And it's what Xbox,

[00:24:13] I'm confident in saying this.

[00:24:14] It's what Xbox expects out of Hellblade 2.

[00:24:17] And so I think if you're

[00:24:18] Ninja Theory right now,

[00:24:19] you were you were praying

[00:24:21] to whatever God you believe in.

[00:24:23] You are doing whatever ritual

[00:24:25] that makes sense to you

[00:24:27] that Hellblade 2 scoops up

[00:24:29] a billion awards this year.

[00:24:31] Right. Because because Hellblade

[00:24:34] 2 fits that sort of same profile

[00:24:36] that's being described.

[00:24:37] But you are hoping that you are getting

[00:24:39] every award under the sun,

[00:24:41] because that's probably the thing

[00:24:42] that's protecting you most.

[00:24:43] You needed to win

[00:24:44] like Game of the Year

[00:24:45] so you can be like,

[00:24:46] how can you how can you close

[00:24:49] the Game of the Year studio?

[00:24:50] Yeah. And also,

[00:24:52] if you're Ninja Theory, right?

[00:24:53] Like I don't know

[00:24:53] how this works in the game industry.

[00:24:55] I was actually surprised to read,

[00:24:56] but this is mostly out of ignorance, right?

[00:24:59] That Hi-Fi Rush or excuse me,

[00:25:01] Tango Gameworks and Arcane Austin

[00:25:03] were both developing pitches

[00:25:05] for their next game,

[00:25:06] which is Hi-Fi Rush 2

[00:25:08] and then a return to the Dishonored series.

[00:25:11] And I'm curious

[00:25:13] if somebody has an answer here,

[00:25:13] why does it take like a whole year

[00:25:16] to come up with that pitch?

[00:25:17] These projects weren't greenlit.

[00:25:19] The pitches weren't even complete.

[00:25:20] But I'm super curious to know.

[00:25:22] And I don't really want to point

[00:25:23] fingers and say it's their fault.

[00:25:25] But a pardon is like

[00:25:27] if they had gotten the pitch

[00:25:28] greenlit three months ago,

[00:25:30] would Tango be fine

[00:25:32] or were they still have gotten the axe?

[00:25:35] I don't know.

[00:25:37] I mean, it's possible because I'm the

[00:25:40] I mean, these decisions are made by people.

[00:25:42] They're literally made by humans.

[00:25:44] Well, they don't seem like humans,

[00:25:46] but they are.

[00:25:48] They are.

[00:25:48] They're sitting in

[00:25:49] they're sitting in conference

[00:25:50] rooms in meetings looking at

[00:25:52] they're going, OK, Arcane Austin,

[00:25:54] you know, they flop.

[00:25:55] But like, OK, what's next on the table?

[00:25:57] Like, do they have something

[00:25:58] really promising in the pipeline?

[00:25:59] Do they have the talent in place?

[00:26:01] How long is it going to take them to develop it?

[00:26:03] What's the budget?

[00:26:04] Who's the creatively?

[00:26:05] Do we like like the creative

[00:26:07] that we have in place there?

[00:26:08] Do we think that that can drive game pass ups?

[00:26:10] Do we think that that game

[00:26:11] that they pitched us has mass market appeal?

[00:26:13] So you go through all these.

[00:26:15] I guarantee you they have like an if then sheets

[00:26:18] with a million questions on it

[00:26:21] and they're using it to evaluate

[00:26:23] all of the projects in the portfolio

[00:26:25] and they're using a shrewd

[00:26:27] calculator right now on those evaluations.

[00:26:30] And it is very shrewd.

[00:26:32] So the games that have already been like pitched

[00:26:35] like Clockwork Revolution and Fable

[00:26:40] and what's the other?

[00:26:43] What is that game?

[00:26:44] The like south something by monster.

[00:26:48] Yeah, something midnight, something

[00:26:51] south by midnight.

[00:26:51] That sounds wrong.

[00:26:53] South of south of midnight.

[00:26:56] Yeah, there's there's a couple of others.

[00:26:58] Those are safe because they've been in the oven

[00:27:01] and they're actually going to come out, we think.

[00:27:04] You know, unless there's like crazy things

[00:27:06] that we don't know are happening.

[00:27:07] Like perfect.

[00:27:08] I swear if if Clockwork Revolution gets canceled,

[00:27:11] there's no way I Xbox needs games to come out.

[00:27:15] If it's been publicly announced,

[00:27:17] I think you're relatively safe.

[00:27:19] But I did sorry to interrupt, but I did bring up

[00:27:23] the high fire rush to thing

[00:27:25] and the dishonored pitch from Arkane Austin,

[00:27:27] because if you're at Ninja Theory,

[00:27:29] you're like, we got to pitch a game now.

[00:27:32] You know, like.

[00:27:34] If you haven't already pitched it

[00:27:36] and have clear plans and are in pre-production,

[00:27:39] I think you're screwed.

[00:27:40] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[00:27:41] I honestly think you're right.

[00:27:44] But don't they have some other secret project?

[00:27:45] Project Mara.

[00:27:46] I just remember that.

[00:27:47] OK, so project.

[00:27:49] So maybe that saves them.

[00:27:50] Maybe. But but I think listen,

[00:27:55] like Obsidian, I think is fine.

[00:27:56] Pentament just won the Peabody Award.

[00:27:58] Right. So

[00:28:00] it's just crazy.

[00:28:01] This is the metric like you have to be so concerned

[00:28:04] about winning awards to be safe.

[00:28:06] Yeah. Or making an Obsidian also delivers a lot.

[00:28:11] Oh, yeah.

[00:28:12] Like they put out a lot of product.

[00:28:14] I think that's a huge.

[00:28:16] Yeah. So Outer Worlds to grounded

[00:28:19] Pentament, like they put out they put out games like a lot.

[00:28:22] So I just I think Ninja Theory

[00:28:26] I worry about because they've just worked on this one thing for so long.

[00:28:29] And like, I'm sure it's probably going to be great.

[00:28:31] But if it's not like the best thing in the world,

[00:28:34] they're probably in trouble.

[00:28:35] And that's yeah, that's like what happened.

[00:28:38] Like, I just feel like getting prestigious awards is such a crazy metric one.

[00:28:43] But like somebody sits in office and they're like, OK, Hellblade 2

[00:28:47] got five prestigious awards, but they needed seven.

[00:28:51] Like, like what happens?

[00:28:52] And they're like, no, it's do.

[00:28:54] I think honestly, he's just saying it because the prestigious awards

[00:28:58] really drive Game Pass subs.

[00:29:02] That's a question I have a question.

[00:29:03] I honestly, obviously they don't because high fire rush like won a lot of

[00:29:07] it was very critically acclaimed.

[00:29:09] I don't think it drove a lot of game pass.

[00:29:12] And this points me to some of my final plan and getting

[00:29:15] to the end of this conversation.

[00:29:18] What do they do with Call of Duty in the fall?

[00:29:21] Does Call of Duty go on Game Pass?

[00:29:23] Because to me right now, you're at a crossroads.

[00:29:26] If you put Call of Duty on Game Pass,

[00:29:30] you're going to lose a crap ton of profit.

[00:29:35] You're going to lose a lot of money.

[00:29:38] And Call of Duty is their literal money maker right now

[00:29:42] because they bought Activision and beside, I mean, besides the mobile games.

[00:29:45] Right, right. Like Candy Candy Crush.

[00:29:48] Call of Duty is your money maker.

[00:29:50] That's your number one profit driver right now.

[00:29:52] OK, do you put it on Game Pass?

[00:29:56] If you don't put it on Game Pass, you're telling everybody Game Pass is dead.

[00:30:02] That's how people are going to understand it regardless.

[00:30:04] That's how people are going to perceive it.

[00:30:06] That may or may not be true.

[00:30:07] I still think of Game Pass as like this great place where these have,

[00:30:10] you know, a lot of these cool, like smaller games and like.

[00:30:13] And that was the way they've been pitching it for years.

[00:30:15] But now that's a question mark.

[00:30:17] Is that really the point of Game Pass?

[00:30:18] Because now if Game Pass ain't delivering.

[00:30:23] Like, what do you do with Game Pass?

[00:30:24] Like, is it worth it to pay for all these titles and like make these licensing

[00:30:28] deals and like you had high fire rush on there and then you close the studio?

[00:30:31] I don't know. I got questions now on that.

[00:30:33] And so I'm like, what do you do with Call of Duty?

[00:30:34] I mean, this this kind of gets back to my point of

[00:30:38] what needs to happen as a legislative change about how C-Suites handle,

[00:30:43] you know, this drive to always gain more and more profit,

[00:30:46] because this isn't to say that Game Pass isn't profitable.

[00:30:50] They've been on record.

[00:30:51] People Xbox several times saying that Xbox Game Pass is profitable.

[00:30:56] And they're still sitting at like, I think, at least 30 million,

[00:30:59] maybe 30 million plus subscribers. Right.

[00:31:02] So that's a that's a pretty nice chunk of change.

[00:31:05] But it's true.

[00:31:07] Like Game Pass has functioned functioned so incredibly well

[00:31:12] and been the best value in gaming because not because of Xbox's

[00:31:17] first party titles, but because of everything else that gets on there.

[00:31:20] That is so awesome.

[00:31:22] And it's interesting because we're just coming off a hot month of Game Pass.

[00:31:25] April was a really fantastic month in terms of games that came to Game Pass,

[00:31:29] like AAA or not AAA, but AA and Indie.

[00:31:32] And same with May.

[00:31:34] There's a ton of really, really cool stuff going on.

[00:31:37] Yeah. Manor lures and other craps treasure.

[00:31:41] You know, I've I've played a ton of great stuff this year.

[00:31:43] Yeah. There's been a lot like especially these two months in like, look,

[00:31:47] I have the recently added pulled up here and we've got like

[00:31:52] Little Kitty, Big City just came out today.

[00:31:54] The Kona series Tomb Raider.

[00:31:56] Have a nice death through a winder, which is a pretty critically

[00:31:58] claimed Indie one that's been on Steam forever.

[00:32:00] Another craps treasure.

[00:32:02] Star Wars Jedi Survivor just hit as well. Right.

[00:32:07] Yeah. All of these really cool games have come to Game Pass.

[00:32:12] So good. Such a good game.

[00:32:14] But it's just it's just wild, right?

[00:32:16] If if Call of Duty goes to Game Pass,

[00:32:19] Game Pass price is going to go to 25 bucks a month.

[00:32:23] I hate how accurately correct you probably are there.

[00:32:29] I mean, you cannot make it work otherwise. Right.

[00:32:33] Because you're what Call of Duty retails at 70 bucks right now.

[00:32:38] Oh, yeah.

[00:32:40] Yeah. So that's the base version.

[00:32:42] And they do like everyone else and have like a million versions.

[00:32:45] Yeah, there's probably bonus.

[00:32:46] Two hundred forty dollar version of the game. Right.

[00:32:50] Could they could they ask this question in our discord?

[00:32:53] I think it got a little buried, but I'm curious from your perspective.

[00:32:56] Would it could they do something in the middle?

[00:32:58] Could be like, hey, if you're subscribed to Game Pass,

[00:33:01] you get 50 percent off on Call of Duty.

[00:33:04] And so it's 35 bucks plus your subscription.

[00:33:06] So you're spending 50.

[00:33:09] And so it's less than 70.

[00:33:13] But it's still money.

[00:33:14] Yeah. Yeah, I think they absolutely could.

[00:33:19] Is that like the is that like a reasonable compromise?

[00:33:21] There's a reason why they're not considering that.

[00:33:23] I'm sure they absolutely could.

[00:33:25] But then that would kind of be going back on like their big pitch

[00:33:29] over the last, again, like five years, which has been

[00:33:33] it's on Game Pass day one, first party Xbox games day one game.

[00:33:40] So in June,

[00:33:42] that's going to be a tricky rope to fight.

[00:33:45] But you I don't think you can do it.

[00:33:47] I think if I am a senior director on Phil Spencer's team

[00:33:51] and I am over on Sarah Mons team.

[00:33:56] Right. Yeah.

[00:33:57] And I'm somebody who's like over triple a

[00:34:01] licensing game selection manager.

[00:34:05] Like, I don't even know what the titles would be under her. Right.

[00:34:07] But whoever that person is, is going is like doing

[00:34:12] spending all day, every day with a team of analysts,

[00:34:15] just forecasting this thing and just going like, OK,

[00:34:19] like if we put it on Game Pass, like that drives X amount of subs

[00:34:23] and they've got an LTV of this much.

[00:34:25] And but does that like what if we if we don't do that?

[00:34:28] But if we discount it and like how many sales do we lose?

[00:34:31] They're literally like forecasting.

[00:34:33] They have like 19 different models that they're like.

[00:34:35] I'm sure you're right. Right.

[00:34:36] They probably mark.

[00:34:38] They're probably checking everything from like a 90 percent to a 10 percent

[00:34:41] discount. Right.

[00:34:42] Like if you bundle with Game Pass or something, it's like, oh,

[00:34:46] but if we put it on Game Pass and that drives, you know, 20 million

[00:34:51] Game Pass subs because in the Xbox, what it's like.

[00:34:55] But they're entrenched in PlayStation.

[00:34:57] So are they actually going to come to Game Pass?

[00:34:59] Probably not. You're literally. Yeah. You have. Yeah.

[00:35:04] And I think I think another reason to actually ask about Call of Duty

[00:35:07] specifically is because Call of Duty was the title that was tossed

[00:35:11] all around the courtroom during the acquisition process. Right.

[00:35:16] Which still to this day is funny to me that they weren't at all concerned

[00:35:19] about Candy Crush or King just because it's mobile and it's like a little

[00:35:22] different and, you know, Call of Duty this and Call of Duty that.

[00:35:26] But yeah. What do you do?

[00:35:29] I don't know. It's a giant mess. Let's see.

[00:35:33] But yeah, I think the last things I wanted to say sort of about

[00:35:36] this whole thing is that it is super crappy.

[00:35:39] Nobody is really winning here, I don't think, except the shareholders.

[00:35:43] And I think rightfully as consumers and as employees at Xbox

[00:35:47] and former employees of Xbox who now just got laid off,

[00:35:50] absolutely need to be shaking your fists up above you.

[00:35:54] Those people. It sucks.

[00:35:57] I think that a lot of promises

[00:36:01] are suddenly invalidated or made hollow because of what happened here.

[00:36:06] Especially to the Redfall fans who were holding out for this big hero DLC

[00:36:11] who got like the hundred dollar version of the game,

[00:36:14] which from all reporting shows that that they were deep

[00:36:18] into producing the big the big Redfall turnaround.

[00:36:22] I personally am really annoyed because I was super hype for Redfall.

[00:36:25] Cameron and I have talked a while last year and for sure episodes.

[00:36:29] We talked about how we saw a whole lot of potential in it,

[00:36:32] and it really sucks to see something like that just die.

[00:36:35] Like there was a good game that I ran like they just needed to find a way

[00:36:39] to uncover. There was a good game and actually have put one of the things

[00:36:41] I pulled up here is the Jason Schreier Bloomberg article about

[00:36:44] what happened behind Redfall and Arkane Austin,

[00:36:48] which I think is a problem that spans Xbox

[00:36:53] and even Zenimax before they were acquired by Xbox.

[00:36:57] I think Redfall needs to be studied now more than anything in like

[00:37:02] everybody reread this article from Jason Schreier.

[00:37:05] Whether or not you like him, I think the investigative journalism here

[00:37:08] is top quality because this is exactly how you mismanage

[00:37:13] a studio into the ground.

[00:37:15] So it becomes one of your top targets when the big dogs come around

[00:37:20] to say, hey, we got to cut something.

[00:37:22] And then it's Arkane Austin. Right.

[00:37:25] I know a lot of people feeling a lot of injustice and personal hurt

[00:37:28] because Arkane Austin went away.

[00:37:31] But at the same time, it was the writing was on the wall.

[00:37:34] And if you look at this Jason Schreier article, the writing's been on the wall

[00:37:38] since like 2021 that Arkane Austin and Redfall just got screwed over

[00:37:42] by decisions way above the developers' heads.

[00:37:45] And that's ultimately what I feel like a lot of this comes down to is

[00:37:49] decisions that these people have no say in.

[00:37:52] This is a big problem with the Tango Gameworks.

[00:37:55] I was actually reading so Shinji Makami.

[00:37:58] He wanted to leave Tango Works for quite a while.

[00:38:02] He wanted he announced he was leaving Tango.

[00:38:05] This is the main creative lead and founder of the studio.

[00:38:08] He announced that he was leaving right after Hi-Fi Rush actually had come out.

[00:38:12] If we all remember this.

[00:38:13] And then he said they wanted to leave so that younger talent could take over

[00:38:17] and that they could make something for themselves.

[00:38:21] And I think at the time when he left,

[00:38:23] Xbox was in the position to be like, yes, this is what we want.

[00:38:26] This is a studio to do this.

[00:38:28] But then, you know, the the Activision Blizzard

[00:38:33] acquisition takes forever.

[00:38:35] Now Microsoft is like, well, OK, you have the studio.

[00:38:38] It's a bunch of young talent.

[00:38:40] You know, people do they have a creative lead?

[00:38:43] Like questions that you've asked, do they have a creatively that makes sense?

[00:38:46] Do they have a project that makes sense?

[00:38:48] Oh, they don't have anything greenlit yet.

[00:38:49] And there's a bunch of young people.

[00:38:52] Cut them right.

[00:38:54] And it suddenly becomes a really easy decision for people up top,

[00:38:57] and it screws over people at the bottom.

[00:38:59] So I don't know, folks, this is just super depressing to talk about.

[00:39:03] I'm ready to move on.

[00:39:05] Let's move on.

[00:39:07] This we're already very deep into this, but let's end the news section

[00:39:11] with on a positive note, which is what a week for indie game releases.

[00:39:15] My goodness, Jake.

[00:39:18] We've got Animal Well.

[00:39:22] Crow country, country, country, country, is it Crow County or no,

[00:39:26] Crow country. Yes, sorry.

[00:39:28] Crow County.

[00:39:31] Why am I screwing that up?

[00:39:33] Little Kitty, Big City and Cryptmaster, all like

[00:39:39] highly anticipated indie titles, all getting great reviews.

[00:39:44] And then last but not least, I'll mention Haiti's too early access,

[00:39:48] which by all accounts is fricking incredible, like out of the gate

[00:39:52] and has like 30 to 40 hours of content in early access,

[00:39:56] which is kind of wild.

[00:39:58] I personally picked up Animal Well,

[00:40:02] excited to dive into that supposedly that is Metroid meets

[00:40:07] Outer Wilds.

[00:40:08] Yeah, what a description.

[00:40:10] Holy cow.

[00:40:13] That is so and that that's from the donkey

[00:40:18] publisher.

[00:40:19] I don't even know what his does.

[00:40:21] Anybody know that publisher is actually called?

[00:40:23] It's just called the donkey publisher.

[00:40:25] Is it just donkey? No, it's just donkey.

[00:40:27] It's donkey. Yeah.

[00:40:30] And yeah, no, these games look super exciting.

[00:40:32] Like what what creative, like cool, interesting titles to look at.

[00:40:36] I was like watching somebody as a crow country and I'm like, oh man,

[00:40:39] this is like PS2 throwback, super hardcore.

[00:40:45] And yeah, super excited to dive in that one.

[00:40:48] Personally, I've been playing a lot of Baldur's Gate 3, honestly.

[00:40:54] That's all I'm on.

[00:40:56] My darker I'm 24 hours deep into my dark urge play.

[00:41:01] Look at all the surprised people in the room.

[00:41:03] I've got.

[00:41:07] Baldur's Gate 3 has become my Dark Souls 3.

[00:41:10] Jakes, that's Jakes.

[00:41:13] Anyway.

[00:41:15] That game still just continues to impress.

[00:41:18] I. I think it's my favorite game of all time.

[00:41:21] Oh, nice.

[00:41:23] It might not.

[00:41:24] It still probably has an unseated Kotor for obvious reasons, but

[00:41:28] maybe not obvious reasons, but anyway.

[00:41:30] Yeah. Picked up some other ones also dove back into just as a quick side note,

[00:41:35] dove back into Total War Warhammer 3,

[00:41:38] which released an expansion with a couple of cool new like

[00:41:43] hero lords that you can use.

[00:41:45] So just have a little bit of fun blowing up

[00:41:48] ogre armies with giant cannons, which is pretty fun.

[00:41:51] Very nice.

[00:41:53] Yeah, this this week has been amazing.

[00:41:56] Actually, and I appreciate this.

[00:41:57] One of the devs behind Indica actually responded to one of our tweets on this.

[00:42:01] So Indica came out for steam on May 2nd and it was moved from.

[00:42:06] Oh, yeah, Indica. That's the one I forgot to mention.

[00:42:08] Yeah. Yeah. So it's out on steam.

[00:42:10] It got moved from May 8th to or May 9th, one of those two days to May 2nd.

[00:42:14] I had read on various sites that the console version was supposed to come out

[00:42:18] like either on the eighth or the ninth.

[00:42:20] And then they actually clarified that they haven't announced the release date

[00:42:24] for consoles. So that is still coming.

[00:42:27] It might not come this month, but I did appreciate that clarification.

[00:42:31] But yeah, let's see.

[00:42:33] I picked up Animal Well.

[00:42:34] I downloaded Big Kitty Little City. It's on Game Pass.

[00:42:38] Crow Country and Critmaster.

[00:42:39] Those are games that are next for me to buy.

[00:42:42] I'm super, super.

[00:42:43] I actually played the demo of Crow Country yesterday.

[00:42:46] And for all you out there who suck at old school

[00:42:52] horror games, there's an exploration mode so you don't have to deal

[00:42:55] with trying to shoot things and it being incredibly difficult.

[00:43:00] So I am probably going to play that in exploration mode, I'll be honest.

[00:43:04] But from what I played to that demo, the mystery behind

[00:43:08] what's happening there is, oh, it is tantalizing.

[00:43:12] Oh, it is good. Right.

[00:43:14] Critmaster, that's another one that's on my radar to play.

[00:43:18] But I have been playing a ton of cyberpunk 2077.

[00:43:23] Finally, listeners, if you have been waiting for us to do a cyberpunk

[00:43:26] 2077 episode, that's right.

[00:43:29] It's coming soon.

[00:43:30] I have got about 20 hours into it.

[00:43:33] That's you'll want to hear that episode.

[00:43:36] You're going to want to hear that episode.

[00:43:37] So that's going to be a good episode.

[00:43:39] I've man I've had the thoughts on my game for so long.

[00:43:42] And you recently played Phantom Liberty, right?

[00:43:46] Yeah. Really enjoy Phantom Liberty.

[00:43:48] I I actually you know what I'll do before we do that episode is I'll go.

[00:43:53] Man, this is what I do with every game, Jake.

[00:43:55] I've literally put like I have like 60 hours in cyberpunk and I haven't finished.

[00:43:59] I'm literally at the end.

[00:44:00] I'm at the end of the game.

[00:44:02] I could go fight the final boss right now.

[00:44:03] I don't finish games. What's wrong with me?

[00:44:06] What's wrong with me? Why can't I finish the game?

[00:44:08] I don't know. Maybe it's not actually a problem, right?

[00:44:11] It's OK to not finish.

[00:44:12] I literally get to the end of games and I don't finish.

[00:44:15] It seriously happens with every game.

[00:44:18] I don't know what's wrong with me. Rebirth.

[00:44:21] I'm like one chapter away.

[00:44:22] That chapter is five hours too long.

[00:44:26] It's like 10 hours.

[00:44:27] Don't get me. I actually really like the ending, but it is too long anyway.

[00:44:32] So I've been playing that.

[00:44:33] I just finished finally.

[00:44:35] This is an indie game that's been in my backlog for like four years.

[00:44:37] Eagle Island.

[00:44:39] I finally beat that and I'm at the very end of another Krabs treasure.

[00:44:44] Really excited.

[00:44:45] That game actually is really surprised me.

[00:44:48] It's a really solid game and I think it overtakes

[00:44:53] Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order as the best intro to Souls likes

[00:44:58] the Krabs treasure. Yeah, that's a solid.

[00:45:02] That's a that's definitely on my list.

[00:45:04] I played the first like hour and a half of that.

[00:45:07] Yeah, it has been surprising.

[00:45:08] Surprising.

[00:45:10] But yeah, the next few dates

[00:45:13] I think that you really need to look out for when it comes to indie game

[00:45:16] releases and I won't go through all of them now because already 45 minutes into this

[00:45:19] and we haven't even touched the water.

[00:45:21] May 21st and May 23rd, I think I have counted up here one, two, three,

[00:45:26] four, five, six games coming out across those two days

[00:45:32] that are worth looking at.

[00:45:34] And then at the very end of the month on May 29th and May 30th,

[00:45:37] we've got some other games coming out.

[00:45:38] So this month is just stacked.

[00:45:40] Really, really happy about that.

[00:45:42] Oh, and the other game help it.

[00:45:47] Oh, yeah. When's it come out?

[00:45:49] Let's see, can I find an ad real quick that would tell me?

[00:45:52] Oh, my goodness, dude.

[00:45:53] Dude, don't send those game to die, man.

[00:45:56] Like at least give me like some.

[00:45:58] Why am I not seeing Twitch interstitials?

[00:46:00] Why am I not seeing like YouTube?

[00:46:04] Why is Twitter not blowing up with?

[00:46:07] It's just the weirdest thing because and you mentioned this, I think.

[00:46:11] I can't remember if it was in this episode or in the discord.

[00:46:13] Cameron and I talked to like five different messaging channels,

[00:46:16] so it's hard to keep track of everything where everything's in.

[00:46:19] But this game has been at like the Game Awards

[00:46:22] doing presentations for like three years.

[00:46:25] Like a tent pole Xbox title, dude, like two or three years.

[00:46:29] I feel like Kelblade 2 is almost exclusively being marketed

[00:46:33] to the people who are perpetually online in gaming.

[00:46:36] And not like actual gamers.

[00:46:39] No offense, people who are perpetually online like us.

[00:46:42] You're not an actual gamer.

[00:46:43] But you know what I mean?

[00:46:44] Like it's not being marketed to the wide audience of gamers.

[00:46:49] It's being marketed to audiences.

[00:46:52] We need to get to Bellagio, but let me just say this one thing.

[00:46:54] I'm marketing. Look at Elden Ring.

[00:46:58] Is Elden Ring like one of the best games ever made?

[00:47:00] Yeah, 100 percent.

[00:47:01] It's an amazing, just incredible game from head to toe.

[00:47:05] One of the it's a masterpiece.

[00:47:08] But. It's sales and mass appeal and popularity.

[00:47:13] It had a frickin incredible marketing campaign.

[00:47:17] Amazing market, amazing marketing, like straight up

[00:47:21] one of the best video game trailers I've ever watched.

[00:47:23] Oh, yeah. Like to this day, hands down. Yeah.

[00:47:26] And that's any game, any genre like I don't care.

[00:47:30] People saw that who don't even game.

[00:47:32] They're like, what is that?

[00:47:33] That is cool. Right.

[00:47:36] None of that happened for me that for and that is going to hurt it.

[00:47:40] Pay that marketing firm all of your money right now.

[00:47:43] Do you say no joke?

[00:47:45] Like if I was at a studio, I'd be like, who did the marketing for for

[00:47:50] who does the marketing for from soft? Yeah.

[00:47:52] Like I want them.

[00:47:53] I want that in-house just paid from soft to do it.

[00:47:57] Do it for you.

[00:47:59] Elden Ring DLC, Jake.

[00:48:01] Listen, June 21st, folks, that is my hard deadline.

[00:48:03] I'm not playing any other game except other ring does the DLC starting from that date.

[00:48:08] So if there's something you want me to cover for any impressions or anything,

[00:48:11] tell me now or wait until August next year.

[00:48:16] I'm just going to toss this in here.

[00:48:18] I'm setting a goal for myself one year from today.

[00:48:21] Oh, nice.

[00:48:23] I will platinum Baldur's Gate three.

[00:48:25] One hundred percent. This is a bet.

[00:48:27] This is ripe for a bet.

[00:48:30] 100 percent. I think I'm on a 100 percent that game.

[00:48:33] That's the first game I want to want to.

[00:48:34] I just decided I'm going to do it.

[00:48:36] What's that, like 400 hours?

[00:48:38] Probably the hardest that OK,

[00:48:42] the hardest thing that's going to be to do is to actually beat honor mode.

[00:48:46] Oh, what is there an achievement for that?

[00:48:50] Yes. What are we betting because I'm going to win?

[00:48:56] I legit I really want to try.

[00:48:58] I'm like I'm that in love with that game.

[00:49:01] I don't platinum.

[00:49:02] I don't chase trophies in any game ever,

[00:49:05] but I've been looking a lot at the trophies and I actually have

[00:49:08] a couple of super rare ones already.

[00:49:11] And I'm like, I want to do it.

[00:49:15] Do you do it? Do I fully support this?

[00:49:20] Mark my words, write it down.

[00:49:21] Discord channel.

[00:49:23] Remember, if your podcast follower may 9th,

[00:49:26] 2024 and 2025, we will revisit.

[00:49:30] And with that, Jake, let's dive into our game for this week.

[00:49:35] We're talking about.

[00:49:36] Bellotro.

[00:49:39] Jake, how are we going to break this one down?

[00:49:40] We will be talking about Bellotro in our four main categories.

[00:49:45] They are narrative, so Bellotra doesn't really have a story.

[00:49:49] So we're going to spend like three seconds on this category.

[00:49:51] We're also 50 minutes into this episode.

[00:49:54] And then next, we'll be talking about the mechanics.

[00:49:56] So essentially the nitty gritty, the systems baked into the game,

[00:49:59] how things operate and what the player does

[00:50:03] with those operations in order to win.

[00:50:05] Third is the gameplay loop.

[00:50:07] So what keeps you coming back to Bellotro over and over again?

[00:50:11] And then finally, impact on the industry.

[00:50:14] Here we get a little speculative.

[00:50:15] This one will be an interesting one to talk about because

[00:50:20] it is kind of build itself as a poker roguelike

[00:50:22] and there's a lot of roguelike fatigue.

[00:50:24] So how did this game manage to do what it did?

[00:50:26] And what is it doing for other Indies in the future?

[00:50:28] We'll get to that at the very end of the episode.

[00:50:34] Let's dive in.

[00:50:36] Are we skipping this first section or did you have thoughts on the narrative?

[00:50:40] I don't think there's a narrative here unless I missed it.

[00:50:42] There is no narrative here.

[00:50:44] I don't think that this game needed a narrative either.

[00:50:49] Yeah, it's like playing cards.

[00:50:50] It could have been sorry.

[00:50:52] It could have been.

[00:50:54] I think the only way you could have gotten a narrative to work here

[00:50:56] is if it was a narrative like inscription.

[00:50:59] Like super weird, creepy.

[00:51:01] You're playing with somebody, some super sketchy, semi supernatural figure.

[00:51:05] But that's not there.

[00:51:06] And frankly, it doesn't need it.

[00:51:08] All you need to know is that you are listening to some sweet,

[00:51:12] sweet psychedelic slow jams.

[00:51:14] And in the background, you are basically looking at a lava lamp

[00:51:18] behind each card that's being played.

[00:51:20] And that is all the mood and atmosphere you need.

[00:51:24] I mean, that's yeah, it's it doesn't need it.

[00:51:26] I always appreciate it.

[00:51:28] As many of you know, if you listen to this show,

[00:51:32] I think inscription that makes it really elevates that experience

[00:51:36] like the narrative description such a good game.

[00:51:39] We actually still haven't done it on that.

[00:51:44] No, both played inscription and I do not believe we have an episode on it.

[00:51:48] So wait, no, that's not right.

[00:51:50] No, I'm I swear we did it.

[00:51:53] OK, well now I need to double check, but I thought we did it.

[00:51:56] OK, if you're Borked.

[00:51:58] Yeah, tweet at us or sound off in the discord if we're I swear.

[00:52:03] I'm going to go look through the library after this.

[00:52:04] OK, we need to double check. Fantastic.

[00:52:07] Anyway, I swear we talked about that.

[00:52:09] All right. OK.

[00:52:12] Yeah, so let's go right into the mechanics.

[00:52:14] I mean, this is a poker

[00:52:18] roguelike. Yeah.

[00:52:22] And

[00:52:25] what's cool?

[00:52:27] I'm having a hard time figuring out how to talk because it is poker.

[00:52:31] It's poker, right?

[00:52:32] At the end of the day, but it's against one person.

[00:52:39] It's against the blind, the small blind.

[00:52:41] Here's your narrative there.

[00:52:45] The big blind and then the boss, boss blind.

[00:52:50] The boss blind.

[00:52:51] But you're not really playing, you're just sort of playing

[00:52:53] against yourself and you're playing against the house

[00:52:57] in terms of like randomness, right?

[00:52:59] Which is in any poker game.

[00:53:00] Yeah, I almost feel like if you want to explain the mechanics this way,

[00:53:03] it's almost it's a poker deck building roguelike,

[00:53:07] but it feels very much like blackjack where it's you against the dealer.

[00:53:12] Right. It's against the deal.

[00:53:13] Yeah, yeah. That that nails it.

[00:53:15] And I think the coolest, the best part about this

[00:53:19] for me was somebody who has no

[00:53:23] like zero knowledge of blackjack poker or the mechanics of those.

[00:53:27] Like I couldn't sit down right now and like play a game of poker,

[00:53:30] like with cards.

[00:53:31] I just I don't know for whatever reason, just never

[00:53:34] I play that. But the game kind of like explains it,

[00:53:37] like tells you how to play. Yeah.

[00:53:39] And like shows you the combos like outright,

[00:53:42] you know, that you need to look for.

[00:53:43] And then you start to get good at like recognizing them.

[00:53:46] And so you as you gradually play,

[00:53:48] you have this component that for me, this is like the biggest standout

[00:53:52] for this game is you have the component of like

[00:53:56] feeling yourself improve mentally

[00:54:00] at the game and getting like better and more sound like tactically

[00:54:05] as the game is getting harder and adding more elements onto your plate

[00:54:09] through the roguelike and like the progression of it,

[00:54:12] which that's like the magic for this game for me.

[00:54:15] Yeah, because this game mechanically is quite complex.

[00:54:19] There are a lot of different things being thrown at you

[00:54:21] that the essentials, like the very first round that you play,

[00:54:24] just you have a standard 52 card deck.

[00:54:28] You get dealt, I believe, at seven cards.

[00:54:30] And essentially, you just need to select five

[00:54:33] and cards will be worth varying amounts of and poker hands

[00:54:37] are worth varying amounts of chips.

[00:54:39] And there's essentially a limit you need to pass.

[00:54:41] And so the very first one is 300 chips, which isn't very hard to get.

[00:54:45] And so you have essentially your chip point count

[00:54:50] and then your multiplier.

[00:54:52] And those are the two kind of numbers that you want to make go really big.

[00:54:56] And you do that by playing these different poker hands out of,

[00:55:00] you know, seven cards that you're dealt to.

[00:55:02] You get X amount of discards to try to cycle

[00:55:05] and better cards to get better hands.

[00:55:06] And you get X amount of hands, meaning times

[00:55:08] that you actually get to play poker hands for chips.

[00:55:12] That is the absolute basic of the game.

[00:55:14] You're essentially trying to form the best poker hands that you can

[00:55:18] within a certain round to earn enough chips to move on to the next round.

[00:55:23] Now, where it gets super complex is all the different cards that you get,

[00:55:28] primarily the jokers, which can manipulate essentially

[00:55:31] your chip point amount or your multiplier number.

[00:55:35] They can also you can also get brand new cards

[00:55:37] that have different effects that get built into your 52 card deck.

[00:55:42] Your 52 card deck might end up with 60 cards, 65 cards,

[00:55:46] because you keep adding more to it.

[00:55:47] And then you essentially get passive cards that are operating.

[00:55:51] They're not one time use, they operate through the entire run.

[00:55:54] And the game spirals and it should spiral out of control.

[00:55:58] But like Cameron says, mechanically, the game paces you well enough

[00:56:02] that you never feel out of control mentally about what's happening.

[00:56:06] Sometimes you just get screwed with RNG,

[00:56:09] but sometimes you can play the odds in your own favor.

[00:56:14] Yeah, there's a lot of RNG, but there's also a lot of like, OK,

[00:56:17] I'm just not smart enough to understand like the strategies here.

[00:56:20] And I can kind of you can kind of feel yourself like, OK, like if I

[00:56:24] because at the end of each round, so you have the small blind,

[00:56:28] the big blind and then the boss blind and each and the boss

[00:56:32] line introduces like a counter mechanic against you of some sort

[00:56:37] where it's like after every hand, they'll take away three cards

[00:56:40] or something like that. That's like one of them. Yeah.

[00:56:43] And then each blind has a certain amount of points

[00:56:46] that you need to get, certain amount of points that are not points.

[00:56:51] What do they call chips?

[00:56:53] Chips. Sorry, chips.

[00:56:55] It's a certain amount of chips that you need to get

[00:56:58] to like finish the round

[00:57:01] or beat the each blind and then the boss.

[00:57:05] And then after each one, you'll cash out a certain amount of money

[00:57:08] and then you use that money to buy card packs,

[00:57:12] which are give you have jokers.

[00:57:14] You can buy jokers, which give you like passive buffs

[00:57:17] to certain types of combos or like certain type of card combinations

[00:57:21] or certain actions that you take or bonuses to like how much money

[00:57:25] you have to spend in between rounds, which allow and then there's

[00:57:28] card packs that have

[00:57:31] like single use cards that you can utilize in certain situations.

[00:57:36] And those are the ones where it started to get

[00:57:39] tricky because I was like, OK, I still don't like really have any idea

[00:57:43] how I could use this effectively to generate like the max combo.

[00:57:48] And so you can see in your mind's eye, like

[00:57:51] how complex the strategies and like the tactics could get

[00:57:55] really, really quickly.

[00:57:57] But it still seems so far off for me, Jake.

[00:58:00] I'm like, it's so fun and like there's such a great progression.

[00:58:04] But I'm like, oh, man, like

[00:58:06] somebody who's a really good at this game,

[00:58:09] they'd probably write like a thousand page like strategy books.

[00:58:12] Like there's just so much going on.

[00:58:14] Yeah, I think if you are a mathematician or a statistician,

[00:58:17] this game is your game.

[00:58:22] I actually remember watching somebody on stream

[00:58:27] and there's a lot of information available to you.

[00:58:30] You can see what cards are left in or left in the deck

[00:58:34] after a certain amount of time.

[00:58:35] And so you can make all you can play the probability game

[00:58:38] and you can predict and try to

[00:58:41] everything related in numbers is in this game.

[00:58:43] And it is insane to see how deep a lot of people get into this game.

[00:58:47] I myself, I don't know how many hours I put into Bolotro.

[00:58:50] I'm going to look this up real quick.

[00:58:52] But I put many, many hours into Bolotro

[00:58:54] and I can very consistently to to be a run because it is a rogue.

[00:58:59] Like your deck pretty much starts over from scratch.

[00:59:02] When you lose to be a run,

[00:59:04] you need to be eight rounds of bosses.

[00:59:09] And I am very good, very good at getting around six.

[00:59:14] I have gone around eight, I don't know, ten times.

[00:59:17] And I have been consistently screwed by that boss blind ten times.

[00:59:23] I've I lost around.

[00:59:25] I think I think it's one hundred thousand chips you need to get there.

[00:59:29] I remember I played hand and I got ninety seven thousand chips and some change.

[00:59:35] And I was like, are you freaking kidding me right now?

[00:59:39] And so what I love about this game looks like I've only got about

[00:59:42] like 14 hours in this game. I thought I had way more.

[00:59:45] But but yeah, the mechanics there are so complex

[00:59:49] and you can think very hard about how you're playing this game.

[00:59:52] Or you can just kind of play it kind of casually and just try out crazy.

[00:59:57] Jokers, essentially the cards are going to sit at the top of your deck

[01:00:00] and they will determine in very big ways sort of what hands you're going for.

[01:00:04] So very quickly you decide like, oh, certain poker hands

[01:00:08] like maybe your jokers will increase the the molt of which is multiplier

[01:00:14] of three of a kind.

[01:00:15] And you're like, great, I'm going to play three of a kind all the time.

[01:00:17] Or there's one joker, for example, it's like you can count a straight

[01:00:22] or flush hand with only four cards instead of five.

[01:00:25] And you're like, OK.

[01:00:27] And there's another joker that's like, hey, get plus or times three molt

[01:00:31] for every hand that you play that's four cards or less.

[01:00:34] And so there's a lot of synergy that will happen with the jokers

[01:00:37] and you can create some super cool combos.

[01:00:40] I think for me personally, the balance is just, OK,

[01:00:43] how hyper focused on a hand do I want to get?

[01:00:46] How quickly do I want to do that?

[01:00:48] And actually, am I getting the cards to manipulate a deck

[01:00:50] that I'm getting three of a kind more likely rather than not?

[01:00:55] So mechanically super complex, but it eases you into it quite nicely,

[01:00:59] which I think this game would have flopped if it didn't nail that.

[01:01:07] Yeah, I agree.

[01:01:08] I think we've talked about the gameplay loop.

[01:01:11] Yeah, I think I think for me personally, what like the mechanics are so sound

[01:01:17] and obviously they're grounded in, you know, poker, which, you know,

[01:01:22] I mean, that's I love poker.

[01:01:24] I just don't have a poker face.

[01:01:27] Poker is the I mean, there's a reason poker is poker.

[01:01:32] Yes. So it's a great bedrock to like build your game into

[01:01:36] and then taking that and kind of adding these video gaming components to it.

[01:01:42] I'd be interested to get the take of somebody who's like really good at poker,

[01:01:47] who's not a video game person at all.

[01:01:49] Yeah. And to stick them in front of this game.

[01:01:52] That would be really interesting.

[01:01:54] I wonder if there's like some YouTube content out there of like

[01:01:57] taking like a world series of poker person and just like stick them in front of this.

[01:02:00] I'm curious what their like take on it would be, because it's just

[01:02:05] it feels like such a creative, like fun spin on like a game,

[01:02:08] you know, that everybody has been exposed to, you know, on earth pretty much.

[01:02:13] The one thing I think for me that keeps it from getting stratospheric,

[01:02:16] like all timer status is just that lack of like some sort of.

[01:02:23] Give me some sort of like end goal to.

[01:02:25] I mean, there is an goal like you want to get as many runs as possible.

[01:02:28] Like, yeah, sure.

[01:02:30] But give me some sort of like, I don't know, like narrative

[01:02:34] hook with like an end. It just I keep going back to inscription

[01:02:37] and that says where it was really, really hard and really, really dense.

[01:02:41] And you had to really get pretty dang good at the mechanics to like get there.

[01:02:45] That's like the one thing that I wish it had doesn't make any less great.

[01:02:49] It's just that for me is maybe preventing it from getting to like

[01:02:54] all time status. But in terms of the mechanics, like you couldn't be more sound,

[01:02:58] I think, and just the execution of how it plays.

[01:03:03] And then also mentioned just.

[01:03:06] I mean, this game is what, 700 megabytes?

[01:03:09] If that if that like so tiny.

[01:03:13] It's so tiny.

[01:03:15] It's got a great UI, a great super snappy,

[01:03:19] just fantastic looking UI, which really helps.

[01:03:23] It's got just a great aesthetic to it.

[01:03:25] So, yeah, just all around package.

[01:03:29] Fantastic. Yeah.

[01:03:30] I think the final thing I would say about gameplay loop is that it is super easy

[01:03:34] to get sucked into one more run.

[01:03:37] Oh, yeah.

[01:03:38] Happened to me the other night and then I stayed up.

[01:03:40] I was like, I will go till I lose.

[01:03:44] And then I kept away.

[01:03:46] That is that is one of the yeah, that's a dangerous mentality to have.

[01:03:50] That's a dangerous game.

[01:03:51] Bellatrio. This is a game that I did not buy on Switch

[01:03:55] because if I bought it on Switch and I played it in bed before going to sleep,

[01:03:59] I just wouldn't sleep.

[01:04:00] I think it's way too dangerous of a game because you'll lose a round

[01:04:04] and you're like, oh, that took like 15 minutes.

[01:04:05] Yeah, I could do another 15 minutes.

[01:04:07] And then you're you're it's hot.

[01:04:09] You're on one.

[01:04:10] And you're like, I don't know what if this went all the way?

[01:04:12] And then I feel like getting to round eight typically takes about for me,

[01:04:17] at least anyway, like 30 plus minutes.

[01:04:21] And then time just starts disappearing.

[01:04:23] It is super dangerous, right?

[01:04:24] It is when this game comes to phones.

[01:04:28] The world as we know it, well, it is over.

[01:04:32] It is over when Bellatrio comes to mobile, which they have plans for.

[01:04:36] So like I will buy this on mobile, dude, and.

[01:04:42] I'm just going to be that person just like

[01:04:45] I got 15 minutes right now.

[01:04:47] Let me just do a quick Bellatrio run.

[01:04:49] Yeah, I'm just going to the bathroom real quick.

[01:04:51] Let me grab.

[01:04:53] Kids are like, where dad go?

[01:04:55] He's playing Bellatrio in the bathroom again.

[01:04:57] He's playing Bellatrio.

[01:04:59] Jake, going into impact on the industry is there.

[01:05:04] I'm struggling to find like good comparisons of this, to be honest.

[01:05:14] Yeah, it's funny.

[01:05:14] We've we've brought up inscription and inscription

[01:05:17] only kind of works as a comparison for Bellatrio.

[01:05:20] And actually, it probably has more things not uncommon than it does in common.

[01:05:24] But I don't know, folks, if if you think about making a poker

[01:05:27] rogue like deck builder, this is extremely stiff competition like.

[01:05:34] It is it's going to be really tough, I think, to sort of break into this space.

[01:05:38] But I think what it does show is that just

[01:05:42] if you have a super this is one thing that Indies especially do incredibly well.

[01:05:46] If you have a super tightly designed core gameplay loop and mechanic

[01:05:52] and it's packaged in a very pretty way.

[01:05:55] So in this case, lava lamp aesthetic, great soundtrack,

[01:05:59] wonderful snappy animations, right?

[01:06:03] It can go really far.

[01:06:05] It has those legs can run really far.

[01:06:08] And I just feel like you don't need to overcomplicate

[01:06:12] a really good, solid gameplay mechanic if it's repeatable.

[01:06:17] And, you know, Roguelikes.

[01:06:19] This is why I mentioned at the beginning of talking about Bellatrio.

[01:06:23] I think a lot of people are feeling rogue like fatigue

[01:06:26] because there's so many that come out and a bunch of them are really high caliber.

[01:06:31] But it does feel bad after a while.

[01:06:34] If you like this rogue like doesn't click with me,

[01:06:35] I'm probably never going to beat it.

[01:06:37] I'm just going to put it away or for whatever reason.

[01:06:39] Right. We put it away.

[01:06:40] And I just think, you know, one really strong mechanic,

[01:06:45] simple but pretty packaging that that goes really far.

[01:06:50] And just not being super stingy, I feel like with

[01:06:53] the power ups and progression baked into Roguelikes goes a long way.

[01:07:00] Yeah, absolutely agree.

[01:07:02] This is a fantastic example of like

[01:07:05] a scoped down, just really finally executed project

[01:07:11] that just honed in on.

[01:07:14] The tightest mechanics, you know, imagine one, obviously with an incredible bedrock

[01:07:17] and one of the most well known recognized games in the world.

[01:07:21] So that helps.

[01:07:23] But not a bad idea for approaching like game development.

[01:07:26] Yeah. Right.

[01:07:27] I would love to know more about like make it easier on yourself, you know?

[01:07:32] Yeah.

[01:07:34] I would I would love to know a little bit more about Bellatrio's

[01:07:37] development cycle, because obviously they spent a whole lot of time here in Polish.

[01:07:41] And I don't want to make it sound like I think it was an easy development job.

[01:07:46] But no, no, no video games.

[01:07:48] Yeah. None of them are easy and anyone that ships is a miracle. Right.

[01:07:51] But I do wonder, it's like, OK, is there something behind

[01:07:56] this type of game that just really polishes and perfects

[01:08:00] its one chief mechanic, which is poker deck building? Right.

[01:08:03] Like what other games could be designed in that sort of regard?

[01:08:06] And I think it's cool that they took on poker, because like you said,

[01:08:08] poker is something that we all have been exposed to in some capacity.

[01:08:13] So there's some sort of knowledge there.

[01:08:15] And I feel like poker is one of those games that people think

[01:08:18] they're a lot better at than they actually are.

[01:08:20] So it's like I think that's a common belief about poker.

[01:08:24] And so it's like, hey, put your poker skills to the test. Right.

[01:08:28] I don't know where's where's my deck building ticker?

[01:08:31] I don't know. Where's where's my deck building tick tock toe?

[01:08:35] This is a great outlet for people addicted to online gambling.

[01:08:40] OK, if you're in one of those online poker chat rooms,

[01:08:43] like betting thousands of dollars and just go play bolacha and spend 15

[01:08:48] bucks of the money, right?

[01:08:50] Spend 15 bucks once.

[01:08:53] Yeah. And win the game.

[01:08:55] Win all the chips.

[01:08:56] Yeah, I don't know. I'm a huge fan.

[01:08:58] I've said this before, but it's currently actually my game of the year contender.

[01:09:03] I don't think that'll hold because I'm a sucker for just like

[01:09:07] a really good video gamey game.

[01:09:09] And we've got plenty of those on the horizon.

[01:09:11] Me too. But it has been an absolute wonderful start to the year with Bolotro.

[01:09:20] Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been another episode

[01:09:22] of the period of one is podcast talking Bolotro, talking Xbox news.

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[01:10:51] Yeah. Thank you so much for listening.

[01:10:53] Have a great night.